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Naqel Offline OP
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Knockdown, stun, frozen, petrified.

Aside from it not really being all that great for there to be that many effects that function identically, it's also essentially stifling most strategies that don't take advantage of permanently locking the enemies out of acting.

Hence, it would be most beneficial if said effects were changed to achieve their goal in different ways, and at a more manageable magnitude.

For example:

Knockdown: The target spends a number of AP proportionate to the duration of the effect to stand up. Afterwards the effect is removed and they act normally.

Stun: The target does not recover their normal AP amount at the beginning of the turn. If they have AP saved, or some other means of recovering it, they can use those as normal.

Shocked(alternative Stun): All actions taken by the target require 1 additional Action Point to perform.

Frozen: Target gains <magnitude> barrier, that absorbs all damage and cannot act until the barrier is broken or the effect ends.

Petrified: Target cannot move or act, and is immune to magic damage.

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........I'd have no complaints at all if the concepts of the CC spells headed in this direction :P Sounds fun

Last edited by aj0413; 11/10/16 06:15 AM.
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I like where this is going.

I hate how the D:OS series has hardcore focus on hard CC and hard Counter.
Its even worse in a turn based combat where the turn to kill period is extremely short removing any form of tactics and strategy.

Pillars of Eternity had a good system that balance out hard CC, soft CC/debuffs and the counters for them. They are not be all, end all mechanics but instead compliment each other.

Last edited by ImariKurumi; 11/10/16 07:34 AM.
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Then they are should me more integrated with rules of world D:OS

Originally Posted by Naqel
Shocked(alternative Stun): All actions taken by the target require 1 additional Action Point to perform.

Less chances to dodge and less mind stability because of lower reaction (-1 willpower).

Originally Posted by Naqel
Frozen: Target gains <magnitude> barrier, that absorbs all damage and cannot act until the barrier is broken or the effect ends.

Fire melt barrier faster than other types of damage. (Ligtning should do almost no damage, but there is no differences between air and lightinig, so act as always). May be use resistances of ice elemental for barrier.

Originally Posted by Naqel
Petrified: Target cannot move or act, and is immune to magic.

And there is also should be no lightning damage, but in ruleset of D:OS petrified should act like earth elemental.

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Originally Posted by ST510
<snip>


There is no Willpower in D:OS2

For the sake of simplicity, it doesn't matter what damage you take while frozen(and lightning hitting ice would cause an explosion, not a fizzle).

Air damage is magic, it's already covered by immune to magic.

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Yeah, there's a lot of redundant CC. As the skills flesh out it'll probably get better, but right now there's a ton of "get tagged, miss a turn" stuff. Even the cures are redundant, just waiting or applying magical armour. There's no Helping Hand and very few ways to apply the Warm status, so if someone's knocked down or frozen there's little the party can do to help them aside from lighting them on fire.

Instead of a ton of hard stops, I think you're right when it'd be better to have each status do something different.

Last edited by Grondoth; 11/10/16 06:17 PM.
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I really like where Naqel is headed with this idea. I think it would make the cc game a whole lot more interesting if it actually mattered what type of cc you used. Would love too see this concept fleshed out (and test it in alpha :P )

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Where does Bless come into play.

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I'm not against CC, but there should be more ways to turn things on their head.
For example, if an enemy is slain while under electrocuted, frozen or petrified an enemy mage can revive them as an elemental.
A spell that grants immunity to everyone around someone who has a CC effect.
A spell that turns someone with a CC effect into a ticking bomb a la the windup toy.
Netherswap a character with a CC effect and the swapped character gets the effect instead (encased in Ice/Stone).
Bless a frozen character and he becomes a spell reflector.
Bless a petrified character and the rocky shell turns to impenetrable adamantium. Teleporting him causes massive drop damage to those he hits.
Bless a stunned character and he becomes hasted & charged with an electrical attack instead of shocked.

Etc etc. There's probably tons more you could do!

Last edited by Cattletech; 12/10/16 06:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by Cattletech
I'm not against CC, but there should be more ways to turn things on their head.
For example, if an enemy is slain while under electrocuted, frozen or petrified an enemy mage can revive them as an elemental.
A spell that grants immunity to everyone around someone who has a CC effect.
A spell that turns someone with a CC effect into a ticking bomb a la the windup toy.
Netherswap a character with a CC effect and the swapped character gets the effect instead (encased in Ice/Stone).
Bless a frozen character and he becomes a spell reflector.
Bless a petrified character and the rocky shell turns to impenetrable adamantium. Teleporting him causes massive drop damage to those he hits.
Bless a stunned character and he becomes hasted & charged with an electrical attack instead of shocked.

Etc etc. There's probably tons more you could do!


I love these ideas

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This is a fantastic idea. In games like these, fights are won and lost with hard CC. If you can keep the enemy locked down, you'll pretty much always win. Likewise, if all your characters get CC'ed, you just have to watch yourself die. This was particularly bad doing a lone wolf playthrough in the first game.

It would definitely make the combat more balanced and interesting if cc was just another part of combat instead of the keystone.

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This is exactly what I would like to see. CC in the current form is the exact same disable with different spell effects plastered over it. This leads to every character having nearly the exact same setup:
+) A focus on CC/Cleansing. Damage is pointless compared to stunning the entire enemy team for 5 entire turns.
+) Teleport is basically REQUIRED for every character, given how much control it gives over the battlefield.

This leads to everyone running Aerotheurge, Hydrosophist and Stunning Grenades/Arrows/Flasks. When the name of the game is 'CC is King', the only difference in characters is HOW they stun people, and the weapons they hold.

This game has the immense potential to have creative disables. I just hope they take notice of this post.

Last edited by Fluffington; 14/10/16 09:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by Cattletech
I'm not against CC, but there should be more ways to turn things on their head.
For example, if an enemy is slain while under electrocuted, frozen or petrified an enemy mage can revive them as an elemental.
A spell that grants immunity to everyone around someone who has a CC effect.
A spell that turns someone with a CC effect into a ticking bomb a la the windup toy.
Netherswap a character with a CC effect and the swapped character gets the effect instead (encased in Ice/Stone).
Bless a frozen character and he becomes a spell reflector.
Bless a petrified character and the rocky shell turns to impenetrable adamantium. Teleporting him causes massive drop damage to those he hits.
Bless a stunned character and he becomes hasted & charged with an electrical attack instead of shocked.

Etc etc. There's probably tons more you could do!


A few of these are gold. Specifically the 'bless' really turning those effects on their heads.

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Naqel Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Cattletech

Bless a frozen character and he becomes a spell reflector.
Bless a petrified character and the rocky shell turns to impenetrable adamantium.
Bless a stunned character and he becomes hasted & charged with an electrical attack instead of shocked.


I like the direction of those.

Making CC run the risk of being blessed out of and turned against the enemy is a great counterbalance.

Although given how powerful blessing already is, It would probably need to cost Source points, or at least not turn surfaces just by walking into them, if it worked that way.

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+1 from me. I remember adding in a suggestion like this during the KS, as it bothered me that in DOS1 so many effevts were just more eays to stun - particualrly that Knockdown and, worst, than putting blind on enemies essentilaly just stunned them as they passed their turns asking "wha??"

The new armor exists to try and counteract how CC dependant DOS1 was, so they've clearly awknowledged a need to mitigate it.

Your particualr suggestions are gold, I think. I had suggestsd the same for Knockdown since it's essentially what Prone costs you in D&D, but your two electricity CCs are really clever. I had suggested classic stun would be the one left untouched but these are good.

Edit: If they want to leave a full CC effect somewhere in both physical and magical skills perhaps physical could get "Dazed," things like a sword-hilt to the head, and magic could get the old stun described as Paralyzed

Last edited by Kindulas; 15/10/16 11:52 AM.
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I second the idea that condition effects should offer more than just mostly an inability to act. Not a fan of all the ideas, but some, like stun increasing AP cost.

I'm also ExTREMELY against this "one-action-counter-everything-I-win"-button suggestion. Bless is already bad enough in that regard as it is.

The idea of dropping petrified/frozen characters causing additional damage to target and surrondings on the other hand sounds great!


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I like these ideas. They would both resolve the issue of CC being overpowered, and the issue of CC being boring on account of it being a bunch of effects that do exactly the same thing. I mean, maybe not implement these ideas exactly, but something similar where it's not just outright "lose your next X turns".

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Originally Posted by Naqel
Knockdown, stun, frozen, petrified.

Aside from it not really being all that great for there to be that many effects that function identically, it's also essentially stifling most strategies that don't take advantage of permanently locking the enemies out of acting.

Hence, it would be most beneficial if said effects were changed to achieve their goal in different ways, and at a more manageable magnitude.

For example:

Knockdown: The target spends a number of AP proportionate to the duration of the effect to stand up. Afterwards the effect is removed and they act normally.

Stun: The target does not recover their normal AP amount at the beginning of the turn. If they have AP saved, or some other means of recovering it, they can use those as normal.

Shocked(alternative Stun): All actions taken by the target require 1 additional Action Point to perform.

Frozen: Target gains <magnitude> barrier, that absorbs all damage and cannot act until the barrier is broken or the effect ends.

Petrified: Target cannot move or act, and is immune to magic damage.


Totally this. I do admit than having played a lot the first opus, it came down to this. And you're even forgotting blind from the first opus that was pretty much for close combat character the same : unable to act.

Totally behind this idea, hope it finds its way in the game (or at least the concept of it)

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I don't mind most of the ideas suggested in the OP except for frozen and petrified. I think frozen would be better with something like "the target cannot act for this turn and gains only half of their normal action points" and petrify should prevent physical damage instead of magic damage. I feel very strongly that turning CC into buffs is a bad idea though as the game is already abuse-able enough without adding another layer of craziness that needs balancing.


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There are so many CC threads, I'm not sure where to respond - but I think this one is the most constructive.

When changing a core component of what D:OS is (even if it's a flawed one, like CC), balance is a valid point to raise. You need some simple idea that adds strategic complexity, is quick to grasp and doesn't completely reinvent the wheel on what they're currently doing.

While I like many of the suggestions raised, they seem to largely add to rule-bloat. Too many rules make balancing chaotic. I liked the analogy used by the designer of XCOM2, in that any time he turned a 'dial' on the balancing of a 'rule', he was simultaneously turning several dozen other dials that impacted balance elsewhere. It's delicate surgery, in other words.

I still like the magical armour system they've implemented to counter CC. I've read some say it's too easy to shred it. I agree. That's why I also think magical armour should be split out into several types of elemental armour: electricity, fire, ice...necromatic? (something I mentioned elsewhere).

In other words, I think CC (frozen, knockdown, electrified, etc) is fine, but that it should be something you have to 'win', something you have to work towards, before you can unleash it. Having to chip away someone's elemental defenses would be a good start, and keeps it simple IMO. Before I can freeze him, I have to whittle down his ice armour HP, which is maybe pretty high. His electric armour HP is lower, but I don't have electric spells. Now I've got to rethink about my strategy.

It means you've still got CC, but enemies elemental armours can be variable, meaning you can't bank on it as you can now - but you also don't completely ditch it either.

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