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Originally Posted by Kylonith
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Minority yourself! And yes i think it is not fun to reload and replay same place, it is not nice, i, as many other people am a fan of continious play and not a fan of repeating play.

Back to original, i meant that place where there is a boss like guy on top and cc and archers around and some soliders, i don't want to spoil anything so you have to guess where it is.

What important is that you should be able to retreat if that fight is too hard, isn't that why we have retreat function? And you can't retreat if you are stunned.

Also if that Bless alow you to ambush people ambushing you, then i don't want it, i like the idea of an anbush i just want it to be playable.

Last edited by Rasly; 14/10/16 04:46 PM.
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You guys dismiss Rasly so quickly frown

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I was thinking of the ambush past the barbecued piggies: that was just painful. I can understand the thing of not really wanting to go back forewarned with the benefit of hindsight, but I guess that is how combat works. So yeah, nasty aerothurge dude, your intestines are going to be strangers to you before you've even spotted me! Yeah okay, I don't recall whether or not the aerothurge person was in fact a dude nor if they were in possession of biodegradable organs, but the point stands.

And let's be nice. Perhaps it's time for another group hug.


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Bless doesn't help against ambushes that much, but sneaking is pretty op to ambush ambushers.

If you could retreat while being stunned, people would abuse it even more to win specific fights, because as soon as you are out of fight, you have total freedom of movement and could sneak back at the fight to snipe some other enemies.

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If you're curious who said what, the answer is it doesn't matter.

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While it helps a great deal if you've played the first game through, you will recognize potential ambush sites after a while and be able to take precautions. Both of the ones mentioned so far (the witch and past-the-piggies) telegraphed as ambush sites as soon as I saw them.

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Originally Posted by vometia
So yeah, nasty aerothurge dude, your intestines are going to be strangers to you before you've even spotted me!

He actually doesn't appear until the fight begins, so there's nothing you can do about him prior to combat.

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Originally Posted by Rasly

Also if that Bless alow you to ambush people ambushing you, then i don't want it, i like the idea of an anbush i just want it to be playable.


Bless doesn't. Sneaking around behind would-be assailants does.

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First off the ratings won't be affected by one encounter no matter what.....in the end it will be the overall game experience that matters. For me one of the most special and fondly remembered games that I enjoyed most did exactly this to me.....a little gem on the Xbox 360 called Lost Odyssey....early in the game trying to get to grips with the mechanic ran into an enemy that would stun my whole party, hit all, and repeat....I would get wiped without getting a single hit in....I was genuinely stuck, no clue what to do, nothing visible in the skills to help out or anything, dead in the water. Ended up looking up an online guide that showed me that on a previous map I missed a very well hidden chest that had a ring that gave paralysis immunity......my party was made of 3 "immortals"(NPCs who could learn abilities from equipped objects) and 1 "mortal"(couldn't learn from objects) so I got that ring and grinded out some low level enemies until my immortals learned, equipped it on the mortal and then the fight was cake. Was it a pleasant experience? No. Do I remember it in a positive light? No. But there was SO MUCH more awesome to that game that it was absolutely worth putting up with and experiencing the rest of that amazing game.....one of the best ever simply because of its story and atmosphere. If I had to rate it I would never give it less than a 10/10 because of how insanely amazing it was. Every game has its quirks but in the end it is the whole experience that matters.

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Originally Posted by Limz
Isn't the usual and correct reply is to say ... git gud?

+1
Never got ambushed and walked through the final fight in my first play through. I 'scouted', used my camera and map. And never walked down any dark alleys with raised platforms on both sides (please, this screams ambush in ANY game) And I didn't power game or reload.

The only time I can support these types of pitiful cries is when it's an obscure trap or a puzzle that instagibs. D:OS before EE particularly had a couple of these and it was pretty jarring when encountered.
Unless they put dead bodies and or ash piles around where that magic lava is going to suddenly appear, it shouldn't be there.

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The real joy of this entire thread is discussing player education.

An obscure trap/puzzle/insta-gib encounter can run from relative to being an axiom; for example, in a game that has a bunch of trash trap builds (think of a wizard in D&D running full strength and using int as the first dump stat) an encounter that is insta-gib is going to look pretty different.

Since this is the case, it's a nice exercise on map design where you're trying to educate the players as much as possible without hand holding them and at the same time providing meaningful encounters with whatever constraints the system has -- DSO is nice in that mostly everything is flexible but at the same time because of that flexibility you have to account for a wider range of player behaviors that in a strict class based system you wouldn't worry about.

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Originally Posted by Limz
The real joy of this entire thread is discussing player education.

An obscure trap/puzzle/insta-gib encounter can run from relative to being an axiom; for example, in a game that has a bunch of trash trap builds (think of a wizard in D&D running full strength and using int as the first dump stat) an encounter that is insta-gib is going to look pretty different.

Since this is the case, it's a nice exercise on map design where you're trying to educate the players as much as possible without hand holding them and at the same time providing meaningful encounters with whatever constraints the system has -- DSO is nice in that mostly everything is flexible but at the same time because of that flexibility you have to account for a wider range of player behaviors that in a strict class based system you wouldn't worry about.


I think one thing that games can do to help ease the adjustment is to add an auto save trigger before the earlier ambushes. This takes the sting out of early experiences while still allowing the player to learn.

That aside, OPs comment basically amounts to, "I'm intentionally going against the design of the game and not taking the steps (having high initiative and scouting) to prevent disaster, then complaining when I don't get away with it." There isn't an explicit problem with the game, just a player who didn't take the time to understand it and then got mad about being punished for his ignorance.


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Originally Posted by Kilroy512512

I think one thing that games can do to help ease the adjustment is to add an auto save trigger before the earlier ambushes. This takes the sting out of early experiences while still allowing the player to learn.


Me: "I've got a bad feeling about this..."
Friend: "Why?"
Me: "Autosave just kicked off for no apparent reason... best check for traps."

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Originally Posted by error3
Me: "I've got a bad feeling about this..."
Friend: "Why?"
Me: "Autosave just kicked off for no apparent reason... best check for traps."


Yes, this exactly. One or twice, not the whole game. it gives the player a chance to sit down and say, "hm, what else is common between these situations?"

You could also simply not have the game give feedback to the player when it does saves like this, perhaps even calling them something other than auto saves. It's really not hard to find a solution to this problem at all. Hell, if you are concerned about corrupted files if the player closed it without a prompt you could just store them in a new directory for safety, worse comes to worse they end up without a safety save they otherwise wouldn't have had anyways.


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Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
Originally Posted by error3
Me: "I've got a bad feeling about this..."
Friend: "Why?"
Me: "Autosave just kicked off for no apparent reason... best check for traps."


Yes, this exactly. One or twice, not the whole game. it gives the player a chance to sit down and say, "hm, what else is common between these situations?"

You could also simply not have the game give feedback to the player when it does saves like this, perhaps even calling them something other than auto saves. It's really not hard to find a solution to this problem at all. Hell, if you are concerned about corrupted files if the player closed it without a prompt you could just store them in a new directory for safety, worse comes to worse they end up without a safety save they otherwise wouldn't have had anyways.


Small problem. If the player does not know the saves are being made, how will she/he know to load them?

I don't think hidden saves are a good idea for the reason you mentioned. Accepting the risk of save files being corrupted is asking for trouble. The problem with "idiot proofing" is the inventiveness of the "idiots", so someone somewhere could end up with a large number of corrupted saves which do not appear in the save list.


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Originally Posted by Kylonith

Originally Posted by Rasly
it is not about hard or easy, it is about losing because of your actions and not just because of a casino based gameplay.


You don't understand the term "casino based gameplay" enough to use it. None of the cc effects in the game have any RNG elements. I can almost guarantee that there were quite a few things you could have done to make that fight easier on yourself.

Originally Posted by Rasly
That is exacly what i don't like about reloading, it is just like cheating.

I think instead of forcing reloading, it would be better to just send player and his company to a cage where they can escape and try again. And make them lose some items as penalty.


Oh. He'd rather there be no fail state to the game. Great job, Sir Rasly.


^ Pretty much all of that.

There is no RNG CC...which actually wouldve probably made events like that ambush unable to CC lock your party and removing party death would destroy the experience completely. Lose a fight to the death = you die......not hard to understand that logic

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Some people like to abuse inbalances in game or just attack anyone in sight for exp and then wonder why game is so easy, then there are other that respect story and play along without exploits.

Would be fun to hear what i could have done differently in that situations from one of those internet heroes.

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Git gud.

Whats the point of a game when it has no challenge?

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Originally Posted by Rasly
Some people like to abuse inbalances in game or just attack anyone in sight for exp and then wonder why game is so easy, then there are other that respect story and play along without exploits.

Would be fun to hear what i could have done differently in that situations from one of those internet heroes.


Usually the developers will telegraph surprise attacks.
For example,
In the cave where you are ambushed by 3 frogs, the character walking in will comment that they have a bad feeling, and that they sense something. Also, there is a melted corpse in the path.

Even if one doesn't catch the clues, you still have a regular fight on your hands. If your party is prepared (tank leading the way, high armors, well-prepared abilities/strategies) you can win without having noticed the ambush.

If you want to walk into ambushes without being prepared and win without needing even 1 reload, I'd recommend the Explorer Mode. That's really the whole reason for different difficulty levels. The game can be hard and easy to please everyone here.

Last edited by error3; 15/10/16 02:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rasly
Some people like to abuse inbalances in game or just attack anyone in sight for exp and then wonder why game is so easy, then there are other that respect story and play along without exploits.

Would be fun to hear what i could have done differently in that situations from one of those internet heroes.


Min-max gamers don't wonder why a game is so easy; they wonder if it can be harder. There's a difference in that we'll look for all those extra optional fights and such that are suppose to be super challenging....such as fighting the Historian in Home Stead.

The game difficulty is balanced around a certain level of character per encounter, so you can't really complain about someone else being over prepared or that the fight isn't balanced or planned to be impossible.

Funny thing is: the existence of this thread goes back to why the armor system 100% CC chance is something I take issue with and needs more evolution.

In D:OS, even if something gets the jump on you or party, unless everyone gets OHKO, there's a chance to bounce back. No CC to death while watching the AI take all turns. And if the devs want a particular action, or event, to seem like instant loss, then death by explosion or something is much easier to stomach then watching all your characters get whittled down and stun locked.

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