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Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
Originally Posted by aj0413

> Add a repair all button that uses up repair items in inventory
> Make hammers and tongs consumables
> Make repairing require some points in blacksmithing/crafting and the amount of durability returned per consumable dependent on ability level(s)
> Add in skills/actions that target item durability (ie Sunder from D&D)
> Allow players to deconstruct/recycle components from items for crafting/blacksmithing using repair items. The value of the items obtained dependent on crafting/blacksmithing levels
> An item reaching zero durability is only unusable for a couple turns in combat before regenerating small amount
> A "break" action to tell PCs to auto target a door, chest, etc... till the item is broken without forcing players to repeatedly click
> Reward players for gear upkeep**


That is a LOT of work to make durability into literally anything meaningful. It requires at least two systems to be added (skills that interact with durability and rewards for upkeep) and essentially just turns it into an arbitrary extra health bar that you can't see without digging through your inventory.


*shrug* I'm a fan of the idea that bashing something with a something causes damage to both items.

I'm also a fan of the intuitive idea that weapons and armor degrade with use.

smirk I know that the two extra systems sound like alot of work, but I'd rather make things more interesting by adding things to the pot that would increase the 'fun-factor' rather than a simplifying of the systems by removing things.

As it stands, I get why durability could be something that players don't find fun. So i propose, we make it fun.

As for digging through for other health bar. I don't see it that way. The UI popup with color coding to indicate areas on character equipment and durability, works fairly well. You only really need a general sense of where durability is at any one time after all.

**Also, keep in mind, in my proposed changes, a PC doesn't need to necessarily upkeep with durability much unless he wants to bash things and/or get rewards for his diligence.

Last edited by aj0413; 20/10/16 07:39 PM.
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Or other idea:
1) If you want hammers be consumable, give them 'durability'. For example: A repair hammer has a durability of 100 and can therefore repair 100 points of durability, before he gets broken.

2) Instead of a identifying glass, make it some kind of magic crystal or orb. Identifying certain rarity would consume a certain amount of durability/charges.

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Great idea!

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My thoughts so far:

Regarding identify:
Automatically identify items on pickup if your lore skill is high enough. Use a consumable item to identify regardless of skill level. I'd suggest "scroll of identify" for immersion and roleplay.

Regarding repair:
Improve craft system and "fix" repair at the same time. Make it so that weapons and armor(maybe other items too) can be broken down to its components and those components can be used to repair or improve other items. If you sword is damaged or broken you might need iron/steel/mithril to repair it, if your staff is broken you need magic voodoo wood, etc. This way there is a cost but it's more about managing resources you'd already have anyway for crafting rather than carrying an item that serves only for the purpose of repairing.

Regarding stealth/lockpick/bash:
This is quite simple tbh. Bashing doors make A LOT of noise. Ever had to bash a door/container in real life? It's totally not stealthy at all. Also if people see you randomly breaking/burning/freezing stuff they MIGHT not like it.
If you break a container, you might seriously damage whats inside (loot loses durability) or even destroy it(loot is reduced to its base components A.K.A crafting resources).

This way there is a cost to destroying doors(makes stealth nearly impossible) and to destroying containers(you risk losing good loot).

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This is just going to result in savescumming outside of honor mode and is no different from durability simply being removed. If you bash a door open and your sword breaks, just quickload and do it again until rng favors you. Few people are going to have their favorite sword break when they can easily reroll and have it NOT break.

I could see a sort of "maintained" or "sharpness" buff though. If you go around whacking things other than soft targets, your weapon will dull or crack. Apply some oil or find and use a whetstone to get the buff back. Not obtrusive, nor strictly necessary, but a buff for those who take care of their things and an incentive to not whack doors and chests with your sword if you want to keep the extra damage or crit chance or whatever.

Last edited by Shadovvolfe; 20/10/16 09:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Or other idea:
1) If you want hammers be consumable, give them 'durability'. For example: A repair hammer has a durability of 100 and can therefore repair 100 points of durability, before he gets broken.

2) Instead of a identifying glass, make it some kind of magic crystal or orb. Identifying certain rarity would consume a certain amount of durability/charges.


I also wouldnt mind this at all smile

I simple identify all would also be lovely

Originally Posted by Shadovvolfe
This is just going to result in savescumming outside of honor mode and is no different from durability simply being removed. If you bash a door open and your sword breaks, just quickload and do it again until rng favors you. Few people are going to have their favorite sword break when they can easily reroll and have it NOT break.

I could see a sort of "maintained" or "sharpness" buff though. If you go around whacking things other than soft targets, your weapon will dull or crack. Apply some oil or find and use a whetstone to get the buff back. Not obtrusive, nor strictly necessary, but a buff for those who take care of their things and an incentive to not whack doors and chests with your sword if you want to keep the extra damage or crit chance or whatever.


yeah, the rng break mechanic is a bit too forgiving unless theirs some way to stop abuse.

thanks for the support on the reward system smile

Last edited by aj0413; 20/10/16 09:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Or other idea:
1) If you want hammers be consumable, give them 'durability'. For example: A repair hammer has a durability of 100 and can therefore repair 100 points of durability, before he gets broken.


I see where you're coming from, but this change alone would seem to leave the existing repair mechanic otherwise untouched, which wouldn't be good. It's the ridiculous amount of clicking across up to four party members' inventories on repair hammers and dozens of pieces of equipment that completely puts me off.

Last edited by Mikus; 20/10/16 09:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Or other idea:
1) If you want hammers be consumable, give them 'durability'. For example: A repair hammer has a durability of 100 and can therefore repair 100 points of durability, before he gets broken.

2) Instead of a identifying glass, make it some kind of magic crystal or orb. Identifying certain rarity would consume a certain amount of durability/charges.


I would be fine with this as long as they add a "repair all" button.


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I'm all in for repair all and automatic identifying as long as you have enough 'charges' to do so.

I just didn't not want to repeat these parts just for the sake of repeating it. They were already mentioned by others and my suggestion did not address overall mechanics, I think. laugh

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Well, it's important in my eyes to get a full picture of what you want conveyed all at once rather than a bunch of fragments. It makes it easier on both new readers and the devs.


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Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
Well, it's important in my eyes to get a full picture of what you want conveyed all at once rather than a bunch of fragments. It makes it easier on both new readers and the devs.


But the walls of text though o.O

.......lol though I probably shouldn't be saying anything

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Perhaps we should try to compress the information to the bare essence, most seem to be supporting as a change. Even so 'most' is difficult to define. laugh

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Eliminating durability and repair is a terrible idea, pushing the game even forward into those “streamlined” ideals so close to causal gaming. I do agree that, as it is now, the system makes little sense.

My proposal: add durability to Tactician or higher difficult levels; introduce ‘consumable’ repair kits specific for the weapon / armor; make an item lose max durability every time is repaired on the field (e.g., an item with 50 max is lowered to 40 max using repair kits); require a blacksmith to repair items without losing max durability; make it impossible to repair special items (magical, high level items) save from special repair kits and/or experts; balance the speed of degradability (make sure players carry several weapons to balance their needs); increase degradation for improper use like bashing chests (items must lose durability even during proper use).

On a similar topic, make food useful again: players must eat (and sleep) or lose a % of accuracy each unit of time. Make finding recipes for food exciting again (right now food is useless). Make it possible to find extremely rare recipes to gain permanent (but small) bonuses (% accuracy, or dodging, or 1 point of strength over 10 magic pies…).

Another idea: make very few special items gain ‘experience’ (as you ‘tried’ in EE).

And finally: for the love of God, give us more control over the camera angles… I love the new vertical challenges you have introduced, but now it is even more difficult to navigate the environment. Let us see more in front of us!

BTW, DOS 2 is just such an incredible game, bravo.

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Heh, I might be guilty of some walls o' text myself. My preference (assuming they want to keep the repair mechanic) would also be to simply add a "repair all" button to avoid all the clicking, as I posted originally. As for identification, it should be automatic. This all assumes you still have the hammers/glasses/ability levels required (though I'm strongly against having hammers and glasses break, as a) it's not realistic and b) much more importantly, that would require you to carry a lot of hammers/glasses around - and there are much more "fun" ways to create gold sinks than this).

That said, I never find "survival mechanics" (item degradation/starvation etc.) to be either less "streamlined" or more fun in any game genre - in every case I can think of, it merely adds a layer of tedious micromanagement, rather than any true "challenge" requiring the use of the player's wits.

Last edited by Mikus; 20/10/16 11:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by mbpopolano24
Eliminating durability and repair is a terrible idea, pushing the game even forward into those “streamlined” ideals so close to causal gaming. I do agree that, as it is now, the system makes little sense.


Complexity does not equate to depth.

Durability exists to add a monetary cost to breaking containers and doors, and discourage doing so with excessive frequency(because you can't really stockpile the resource you use to do it: repair tools/gold, since it is also expended elsewhere).

How the gameplay goal is achieved is irrelevant, and from an immersion perspective, the current one is just as jarring(your axe that would realistically be able to cut down any wooden door without a problem is half-broken after bashing down a single, shoddy looking, one) as having no durability would be(given the replacement rate on equipment, a realistic value would be so high as to be irrelevant, so it might as well be skipped altogether).

Hence I return to my suggestion:
Originally Posted by Naqel
Instead of durability and repair hammers, we should have a Disarm and Disrobe status/effects that allow an enemy to strip your gear(forcing AP use to re-equip), and Crowbars that act like super-lockpicks(rare, but require no skill to use).

With Crowbars in game, no door should be breakable through damage.


Separate statuses for the interesting implications of a weapon being disabled, straight-forward solution to restricting the supply of door-bashing equipment.
Chests can stay bash-able, because the cost is in the risk of damaging the contents/hauling them around till you can open them.

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@Naqel

While I can see your points, I actually enjoy the idea of having durability. I find it intuitive and immersive, which I greatly prefer in my RPGs.

That's why i argue for extending the current system to be more fleshed out and adding some sub-systems.

We should make it one of those things that has cost vs gains decision making and strategic value.

Removing it would be an overly simplified attempt to solve things and leave holes elsewhere

And while I don't actively dislike your suggestions it makes me feel akward cause it doesn't seem like an intuitive replacement.

I do however think the skills/effects you suggested should be added regardless of what happens, actually. I like the idea of letting people choose to either invest in lockpick or use a crowbar in the same vain as the unlockspell except more rare. The disarm and disrobe effects can be tied into melee fighters to give them more flavor and expend their repitiore of skills since we have such a flush of magic trees

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I don't like durability. I don't understand the problem with 'streamlining' games. What do people like D:OS for? I can guarantee that no top 10 reason, or top 20.. or heck and reasons list at all include the 'durability' mechanic.

Broken loot sounds like the most interesting deterrent to bashing things. The simplest, remove from everything but weapons. If the entire mechanic exists so we don't use our swords why do I have to waste time repairing my gloves?
And it is a waste, anytime I spend in this game, not 1. customizing my character 2. getting into awesome battles or 3. following a good story... is a waste! Because those are the pillars the game is based on and repairing doesn't add anything.
If this was a survival game, you could make the argument. If this was an online RPG where economy mattered you could make the argument. As is, the devs want a way to make you explore and treat locked chests and doors as puzzles and not simply pinatas. The current mechanic doesn't work and is aggravating at best. The devs did not introduce repair mechanics for simulationist reasons.

So I suggest either removing repairs and introducing broken things out of items that would have been useful (likely, grenades, arrows, crafting items and rare or worse equipment) and now just sell for a bit and are junk.
Or they put durability entirely onto weapons and nothing and keep their current system.

PS. I still think they should just drop durability since it has never made me even think twice about bashing a chest thus far.
Broken items however CERTAINLY would make me think twice.

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Originally Posted by Surrealialis
I don't like durability. I don't understand the problem with 'streamlining' games. What do people like D:OS for? I can guarantee that no top 10 reason, or top 20.. or heck and reasons list at all include the 'durability' mechanic.

Broken loot sounds like the most interesting deterrent to bashing things. The simplest, remove from everything but weapons. If the entire mechanic exists so we don't use our swords why do I have to waste time repairing my gloves?
And it is a waste, anytime I spend in this game, not 1. customizing my character 2. getting into awesome battles or 3. following a good story... is a waste! Because those are the pillars the game is based on and repairing doesn't add anything.
If this was a survival game, you could make the argument. If this was an online RPG where economy mattered you could make the argument. As is, the devs want a way to make you explore and treat locked chests and doors as puzzles and not simply pinatas. The current mechanic doesn't work and is aggravating at best. The devs did not introduce repair mechanics for simulationist reasons.

So I suggest either removing repairs and introducing broken things out of items that would have been useful (likely, grenades, arrows, crafting items and rare or worse equipment) and now just sell for a bit and are junk.
Or they put durability entirely onto weapons and nothing and keep their current system.

PS. I still think they should just drop durability since it has never made me even think twice about bashing a chest thus far.
Broken items however CERTAINLY would make me think twice.


Great points. I totally agree that durability is not fun for this game and should be removed.

Furthermore, players can use spells to break chests and doors and avoid the durability loss anyway. Durability literally fails at the only valid point here.

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This isn't about Durability, but it is about Identification, so I'm reposting this from elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Kalrakh
If they really want to keep it, they should at least turn it into indentify scrolls and not a 'glass', also those scrolls should work, without the need of having Loremaster. So you would have the choice: spend social points for loremaster or use identify scrolls. But if you learned loremaster, identifying should work automatically like suggested.


Hmmm... well. if Larian wants to keep resource consumption for Identifying items, this idea isn't that bad. I'd change it up a bit though:

- Added consumable Identify scrolls. These are sold and can appear in loot.
- Identify scrolls can be used without points into Loremaster.
- Loremaster requires Identify glasses to use
- Identify glasses are no longer consumed on use, you can use them as much as you like
- Identify glasses come in 5 different qualities, which allows you to identify items up to and including X level of the item. ...Actually, perhaps scrolls also come in the same five types?
- Identify glasses are no longer found in random loot, can only be bought from merchants or found pre-placed.
- Identify glasses price is increased significantly, and each higher level of glasses has a higher price which also increases significantly from the previous level.

If Larian wants a gold sink for identification, this offers three: Merchant identification, one-shot-scroll identification, and reusable, but expensive identification.

Merchant identification is probably the most useless since it's pay-per-item and you need to travel there to use. But they can identify anything (if scrolls come in 5 types as well). Scrolls are not that expensive individually, but the costs add up, however, Loremaster is not required. The glasses can be used forever, but require points into Loremaster, and are expensive to buy and are not found in loot, and can only be bought or found in pre-placed locations.

I can see people hating the idea of 5 different levels of identification glasses (and possibly scrolls), though.


Originally Posted by mbpopolano24
My proposal: add durability to Tactician or higher difficult levels; introduce ‘consumable’ repair kits specific for the weapon / armor; make an item lose max durability every time is repaired on the field (e.g., an item with 50 max is lowered to 40 max using repair kits); require a blacksmith to repair items without losing max durability; make it impossible to repair special items (magical, high level items) save from special repair kits and/or experts; balance the speed of degradability (make sure players carry several weapons to balance their needs); increase degradation for improper use like bashing chests (items must lose durability even during proper use).


Never mind needing to carry around a whole lot of different repair kits specific to each specific piece of gear, there are larger issues I have with that.

Nobody liked the idea of repairing costing max durability in the DOS 1 alpha, and I imagine that won't change here. You might as well just not have repair kits because everyone will only repair at blacksmiths.

And making magical items unrepairable? Hello? Your entire gear will be magical after act 1.

Increasing the speed of degradation to force you to carry multiple weapons?! Have you played this game? Do you not realize that 80% of the loot in the game is random? Finding a single good piece can be hard enough, never mind needing to carry several good weapons for each character!!


Quote
On a similar topic, make food useful again: players must eat (and sleep) or lose a % of accuracy each unit of time.


With all due respect, FUCK THAT.

Survival mechanics are either too lenient and thus are so meaningless that they might as well not exist, or they are obnoxious and only serve to irritate most players.

Quote
Make finding recipes for food exciting again (right now food is useless).


No, recipes are not exciting and forcing constant food consumption to avoid penalties will absolutely not make them exciting.

And once again, this game has RANDOM LOOT, so good luck finding all the components you need for the recipes!

All your ideas are completely awful and murder fun in favor of incredibly tedious and fun-sapping micromanagement.

Last edited by Stabbey; 21/10/16 01:55 AM. Reason: what terrible ideas you have
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I couldn't have said it any better myself. Clicking all your equipment to "repair it" isn't fun, engaging, realistic, or immersive. It's just a time waster.

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