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Originally Posted by qwerty3w
Two suggestions:
2.Repairing a item could change the item's stats randomly. This mechanic should come with some savescum prevention.


It's called "repairing", not "randomly changing stats". This is just another idea which will effectively punish players for not having good luck.

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If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work

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Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


+1

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Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


+1


+2

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Originally Posted by Mikus
Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


+1


+2


+3

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Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


Probably just the best way to go about it is to have enough situations where lockpicking is mandatory (for sound or destructibility reasons, like a stone or magically resistant chest), but still have a decent number of chests that can be bashed. Another big thing to consider is I remember that Thievery now encompasses Pickpocketing and Lockpicking, so as long as there's also plenty of situations to pickpocket valuable things (something I forgot to do), and lockpick some chests or doors, than I think people will see Thievery as a good investment even if some chests or doors can be bashed open with no cost.

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Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by Mikus
Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


+1


+2


+3


-1

-_- We can clearly see two camps here:
- Those who feel durability isn't that important (for various reasons)
- Those who like the idea of durability; generally, thanks to RP immersion qualities and the ideas it can branch into

**Also, I'd gladly add bathroom mechanics to an RPG :P Would give my character a reason to piss on his enemies.

I'm not about to argue the idea of immersive mechanics, what counts as too far given a game type, and all that other jazz.

Point is:
Some of us are attached to the idea of durability because of RP factors and cause we think it could be made interesting and fun

I did a a long wall of text consolidating ideas behind that and it can be found here:

Forum Thread: Let's talk about durability, page 4

Secondly:
As far as I can tell, while most people fall in one of the two camps, there's a spectrum of 'hate' for durability in the 'make it go away' side.

* Some find it annoying but think it could maybe be made better
* Some think it adds nothing and thus don't care for it
* Some dislike it, but could swallow their distaste if it was improved
* Some actively hate the idea of it

Thus:
Seems to me that if any of the suggestions or work into actually improving the system and making it more involved, interesting, and adding to the combat aspects, strategic choice making, and, generally, less tedious were done, most one side would be completely happy and, at minimum, half the other would be 'okay.'

You can't satisfy everyone, but the majority of people would be better off improving and evolving the system to satisfy/please three fourths of the player base than to alienate half.

My thoughts/feelings on immersion:

There's also the fact that the fact it's in the game at all meams the devs also seam attached to RP immersive factors. Other wise: why durability? why the ability to 'sleep'? why the ability to eat? why the ability to drink?

Truly, I wouldn't want to add survival elements to eating and sleeping, but I'd love for them to be made into something much more substantial.

Eating and drinking don't have to be punishing for them to be interesting and relevant in a RP perspective from mechanical aspect.

Just as someone mentioned rewarding players for gear upkeep, you can reward players for taking care of their characters quality of life. You could even add small bonuses based off how they live.

Too many sweets and pies -> Something interesting happens with merits and demerits
Eat healthy alot -> rewarded small bonus

Well hydrated -> small reward

*rolling eyes* of course I suspect some here would shoot me in the head for suggesting such a thing, but it is what it is and that's my feelings on the matter

I actually really like it when I'm playing D&D or Skyrim or Fallout and some realsitic mechanics concerning weight, eating, sleeping, going to the bathroom are included. I even have used mods to simulate health and disease and stuff.

I enjoy total immersion. The idea that the character is actually alive and living so I can connect with them better.

Sure, it would be just as immersive to have a realistic life of a office worker, but the important aspect missing in that counter example is the setting. Would that same example be ridiculously fun if everything was totally immersive but then aliens invaded randomly? Or if you could go around and choose to cause chaos? Hell, yeah.

Having my character go to the bathroom only to have aliens kick down the door to kill me with my pants down? Sounds awesome to me.

This debate is getting a bit too heated for some.

Lets refocus on two conclusive things:
> There are two groups here around a dividing line
> Is there a way to please the majority of people from both?

Last edited by aj0413; 24/10/16 08:18 AM. Reason: Wording was bad :P
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**Also, I'd gladly add bathroom mechanics to an RPG :P Would give my character a reason to piss on his enemies.


SAVAGE LOL

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I do feel that immersion is very important. I however do not feel that durability adds any immersion. Some other people in this thread said similar things. The dividing line here is not the importance of immersion.

Also I do believe there's no way to improve durability enough to make it interesting for me. It'll either be not meaningful or meaningful and extremely annoying.

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Originally Posted by Alanta
I do feel that immersion is very important. I however do not feel that durability adds any immersion. Some other people in this thread said similar things. The dividing line here is not the importance of immersion.

Also I do believe there's no way to improve durability enough to make it interesting for me. It'll either be not meaningful or meaningful and extremely annoying.


Wasn't immersion as the dividing line: It's durability satying or going. Whether you see it as immersive or not means very little in that sense. You've clearly chosen a side.

Secondly, what counts as immersive and to what degree is relative. So that hardly matters as well. Me pointing out that durability staying and RP immersion being important is just a trend I've noticed on those who want it to stay.

Thirdly, so what your saying is: depending on what happens, I'll either hate it or ignore it depending on how it impacts gameplay. Either that, or that you don't want it at all, ever.

Which goes back to my previous statement:
> If you're statement is more of the former interpretation: Then there's a method to get durability out of your face and make it something you don't need to worry about too much and can be made quick and relatively painless in the suggestions.

> If anything at all with durability bothers you, you're in the sub-sub group of just hating it and that pretty much means that you can't really be expected to work towards a middle ground for the majority cause you cant be budged.

> And if the idea that a player doesn't need to worry about durability really but if he keeps it high he gets a small bonus bothers you: Now you're just nitpicking and being kind of selfish

Last edited by aj0413; 24/10/16 07:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by aj0413

-_- We can clearly see two camps here:
- Those who feel durability and RP immersion isn't that important
- Those who like the idea of durability and RP immersion


That's false.

There's nothing stopping a person from enjoying immersive role-playing while being opposed to the idea of equipment durability, and vice-versa.

The line of division here isn't "RP master race and the rest of the plebs", it's "maintenance saps the fun out of games" versus "durability enhances realism".

These are not irreconcilable differences(as you yourself observe: if maintenance stops being a pain, the system can stay), so let's not present them as such.

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You said this:

Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413

-_- We can clearly see two camps here:
- Those who feel durability and RP immersion isn't that important
- Those who like the idea of durability and RP immersion


That's false.

There's nothing stopping a person from enjoying immersive role-playing while being opposed to the idea of equipment durability, and vice-versa.

The line of division here isn't "RP master race and the rest of the plebs", it's "maintenance saps the fun out of games" versus "durability enhances realism".

These are not irreconcilable differences(as you yourself observe: if maintenance stops being a pain, the system can stay), so let's not present them as such.


I said this just previously:

Originally Posted by aj0413

Wasn't immersion as the dividing line: It's durability satying or going. Whether you see it as immersive or not means very little in that sense. You've clearly chosen a side.

Secondly, what counts as immersive and to what degree is relative. So that hardly matters as well. Me pointing out that durability staying and RP immersion being important is just a trend I've noticed on those who want it to stay.


When I put the two concepts in a sentence I wasn't irrevocably chaining them together.

I was implying that there are people here who don't see either 'durability' nor 'immersion' as important; two separate, though normally related, concepts. Not if you don't agree with immersion, then you don't agree with durability and vice versa.

But I guess I could've worded that better, yes; so, my bad :P

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Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by Mikus
Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by sehnsucht
If preventing people from bashing open wooden doors & chests too often is the only reason you keep durability in the game then you can remove it. I always bash with spells to prevent durability loss.

IMO if you don't want certain chests, doors, etc to be bashed open, simply make them immune to all damage or give them a very high life (like 1 million) and it should work


+1


+2


+3

+4


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I think that we are confusing realism with immersion. You can't tell me you feel immersed when you open up your inventory panel to tediously click a few objects, if that's your argument then it's literally a lie. It's debatably more realistic and that's the only claim to be made.

Repairs in their current form=/=immersion

If you have ever played with a good group in DnD you know that it is one of the most immersive forms of entertainment available and yet gear maintenance is extremely rare outside of stocking up on supplies. The primary exception to that is when something off the wall happens that specifically targets gear like rust monsters, potent acid, or a particularly nasty monster peeling open your plate wearers armor like a tin can. In most cases these repairs require specific attention to replace or repair, and even then it comes at a high cost. (particularly if a rust monster just ate up a suit of full plate) Powerful moments of significant loss is how you make repairs seem more interesting/appealing, not tedious menus.


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My idea is that durability will still occur but is a battle concern that you can use strategy around to avoid or minimize. That way you can retain role-playing immersion and minimize having to repair equipment all the time.


Instead of having equipment deteriorating from usage you could have equipment in three states and remove usage from the equation.

Enhanced - Equipment/weapons gain bonus effects
Normal - Equipment/weapon is as advertised
Broken - Equipment/weapon can no longer be used until repaired

What determines if equipment is in these three states?

Broken
- Battle ~ aka a rust monster/spell etc
- Sabotage ~ a vial of corrosive acid makes your equipment brittle
- Use whet stones/armorer hammers to repair 'broken' state equipment/weapons

Normal
- All equipment/weapons start like this usually

Enhanced
- Use things like whet stones or armorer hammers to enhance armour/weapons and add effects with spells etc

*Chests and doors will not break weapons and neither will attacks with your weapon cause durability to reduce. Noise made should be enough of a check and balance for breaking chests and doors.
*Armour/weapons will not suffer durability loss from use. Going from 'normal' to 'broken' is caused by special attacks from some enemies like rust monsters and will not occur straight away but after a couple of turns will be unusable unless treated or repaired by a spell or tool etc

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Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413

-_- We can clearly see two camps here:
- Those who feel durability and RP immersion isn't that important
- Those who like the idea of durability and RP immersion


That's false.

There's nothing stopping a person from enjoying immersive role-playing while being opposed to the idea of equipment durability, and vice-versa.

The line of division here isn't "RP master race and the rest of the plebs", it's "maintenance saps the fun out of games" versus "durability enhances realism".

These are not irreconcilable differences(as you yourself observe: if maintenance stops being a pain, the system can stay), so let's not present them as such.


+1

I think that immersion is importent but I do not think that durability adds lots of immersion to D:OS2.

At the moment I play Planescape Torment again. It is one of the most immersive games I know. There is tons of text and I read it and I enjoy doing so.
PST is immersive because of its setting, story, characters and how all these things fit together.
PST is not realistic in any way: no durability and repair, no need to eat, drink, sleep (except spell recovery) or going to the toilett. They can carry tons of items, there are some strange restrictions who can use what items or skills and there are tons of other unrealistic things.

summary:
- immersion is importent
- immersion is not the same as realism or simulation
- realism can add to immersion, but it does not do it in every case. Sometimes realism can make things boring or annoying. So it is possible that realism can reduce immersion.


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Originally Posted by Madscientist

summary:
- immersion is importent
- immersion is not the same as realism or simulation
- realism can add to immersion, but it does not do it in every case. Sometimes realism can make things boring or annoying. So it is possible that realism can reduce immersion.


Yes! Spread the gospel! Chant it to the top of the skies! Henceforth you shall be named as "Madscientist, the Keeper of Truth!" laugh

...Seriously, every point against weapon durability condensed into a brief, concise summary.

Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413

-_- We can clearly see two camps here:
- Those who feel durability and RP immersion isn't that important
- Those who like the idea of durability and RP immersion


That's false.

There's nothing stopping a person from enjoying immersive role-playing while being opposed to the idea of equipment durability, and vice-versa.

The line of division here isn't "RP master race and the rest of the plebs", it's "maintenance saps the fun out of games" versus "durability enhances realism".

These are not irreconcilable differences(as you yourself observe: if maintenance stops being a pain, the system can stay), so let's not present them as such.


Nailed it. DM mode isn't out yet, we don't even know how will it be implemented, but I'm already getting the vibe I used to get on Ultima Online/NWN1 and 2 whenever anyone wanted "better immersion" at the expense of the fun factor and used the "rp untermenschen" line whenever someone else didn't agree to their ideas.

Not going to joke, I'm loving this community! It's again like in the glorious, good old days! hahaha

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Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by Madscientist

summary:
- immersion is importent
- immersion is not the same as realism or simulation
- realism can add to immersion, but it does not do it in every case. Sometimes realism can make things boring or annoying. So it is possible that realism can reduce immersion.


Yes! Spread the gospel! Chant it to the top of the skies! Henceforth you shall be named as "Madscientist, the Keeper of Truth!" laugh

...Seriously, every point against weapon durability condensed into a brief, concise summary,


Ya know, people get this?

The idea behind durability being immersive is pretty simple. Items aren't indestructible. I can bash open a door, I can break a stick I use as a weapon, so on and so forth.

It's intuitive to ones understanding of the world and how things work.

It's immersive that such intuitive thoughts hold true. Going counter to them is being the opposite of immersive.

There's a degree of suspension of disbelief for immersive games cause they aren't beholden to realism (ie magic), but accepting indestructible weapons is more further than I'm willing to go.

The fact that you don't have to hunt down components to fix things and can just use a hammer for everything seems like enough of a reduction of realism to me to reduce the 'boring' or 'annoyance' factor

Hell, the fact that you durability doesn't seem to degrade value or damage or anything is there to reduce realism

Just cause people argue for keeping durability does not mean we don't get what your conveying

Nor is there a right or wrong answer in immersive qualities, per se.

But this is a side debate more than anything: Ignore whether or not, I want durabilty for immersion. Ignore whether or not, you disagree with me.

Fact is: You can't argue an opinion. And trying to undermind one groups opinion on the immersive qualities of durability gets us nowhere.

My point remains:
> The issue on durability is divided
> The group who wants it gone at least has sub groups willing to discuss changing it so it doesn't bother them
> Therefore, more people would be better off with an evolution of the system rather than just half

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Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by GrumpyMcGrump
Originally Posted by Madscientist

summary:
- immersion is importent
- immersion is not the same as realism or simulation
- realism can add to immersion, but it does not do it in every case. Sometimes realism can make things boring or annoying. So it is possible that realism can reduce immersion.


Yes! Spread the gospel! Chant it to the top of the skies! Henceforth you shall be named as "Madscientist, the Keeper of Truth!" laugh

...Seriously, every point against weapon durability condensed into a brief, concise summary,


Ya know, people get this?

The idea behind durability being immersive is pretty simple. Items aren't indestructible. I can bash open a door, I can break a stick I use as a weapon, so on and so forth.

It's intuitive to ones understanding of the world and how things work.

It's immersive that such intuitive thoughts hold true. Going counter to them is being the opposite of immersive.

There's a degree of suspension of disbelief for immersive games cause they aren't beholden to realism (ie magic), but accepting indestructible weapons is more further than I'm willing to go.

The fact that you don't have to hunt down components to fix things and can just use a hammer for everything seems like enough of a reduction of realism to me to reduce the 'boring' or 'annoyance' factor

Hell, the fact that you durability doesn't seem to degrade value or damage or anything is there to reduce realism

Just cause people argue for keeping durability does not mean we don't get what your conveying

Nor is there a right or wrong answer in immersive qualities, per se.

But this is a side debate more than anything: Ignore whether or not, I want durabilty for immersion. Ignore whether or not, you disagree with me.

Fact is: You can't argue an opinion. And trying to undermind one groups opinion on the immersive qualities of durability gets us nowhere.

My point remains:
> The issue on durability is divided
> The group who wants it gone at least has sub groups willing to discuss changing it so it doesn't bother them
> Therefore, more people would be better off with an evolution of the system rather than just half


Yes, people have been through this back-and-forth before. A dozen times, to be accurate. So far I've yet to see a single alternative that pleases the majority of people without making degradable equipment a pain in the backside, and there's a good chance that said valid alternative won't pop up at all. Just cut the knot (i.e. remove the feature) and be done with it. It's not that the game or the roleplay factor will be diminished in any way whatsoever without it.

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Originally Posted by aj0413

Ya know, people get this?

The idea behind durability being immersive is pretty simple. Items aren't indestructible. I can bash open a door, I can break a stick I use as a weapon, so on and so forth.

It's intuitive to ones understanding of the world and how things work.

It's immersive that such intuitive thoughts hold true. Going counter to them is being the opposite of immersive.

There's a degree of suspension of disbelief for immersive games cause they aren't beholden to realism (ie magic), but accepting indestructible weapons is more further than I'm willing to go.

The fact that you don't have to hunt down components to fix things and can just use a hammer for everything seems like enough of a reduction of realism to me to reduce the 'boring' or 'annoyance' factor


You basically just gave the definition of realism and then called it immersion.

Quote

noun: immersion

-the action of immersing someone or something in a liquid.
"his back was still raw from immersion in the icy Atlantic Ocean"
-deep mental involvement.
"his immersion in Jewish culture"
a method of teaching a foreign language by the exclusive use of that language, usually at a special school.


In the context of games I would say that it more specifically refers to a games ability to make you either forget you are playing a game (the pipe dream of game devs the world over) or allow you to feel personally connected to the consequences of actions or events taking place in the game.

If the goal of the game is to make you feel more connected to it, the last thing you want to do is drag them into menus unnecessarily. This rips away immersion by reminding the player/players very clearly that they are in a simulation. That is the only net effect of durability that relates to immersion and it is directly counter to the concept of immersion.

You can argue that it is realistic all day, that's fine, but immersive it is not and tedious it is.

Last edited by Kilroy512512; 24/10/16 09:23 AM.

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