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Originally Posted by Alanta
all the suggestions would make it either pointless or tedious or would require too much work to implement.


This is largely the reason durability as a number should be gone.

The only good solution that didn't fully remove the mechanic so far was to have an item exist in the states of broken and not broken, with penalties for being broken.

Even that was just the good parts of an overall bad idea.

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Suggestion:
Make physically bashing destroy some of the "soft items" in the crates and boxes, but not any of the harder, sturdier ones like weapons, armor and similar.
Because it makes sense.

That and making bashing attract guards, raise alarms and similar (where it should be logically expected only) will provide good balance versus stealth thievery.
You already have doors that cannot be physically broken, so why not a few of special crates of that kind too?

Make burning, freezing or electrocuting loot boxes destroy more items, including sturdier ones.

Also, i think if you make it that once i select attack on an item the animation of hitting it becomes automatic and repeats until it or my weapons break - so i dont have to select attack fifty times myself - will remove majority of the complaints about it.

If it was me, i would make durability have tiered negative effect on the item stats. So a player with low repair stat could only fix them partially.
(same thing for loot from enemies, which will make high repair skill more valuable but players could still play without it)

I would then also use that mechanic to make items in loot boxes slightly or more damaged caused by physically or magically forcing them open.

That would also make thievery even more valuable and i think some xp for success wouldn't be amiss either.

I would also like to see lockpicks break only occasionally, due to low skills and critical fails - not all the time. So a skilled thief would not break her lockpicks all the time even if she fails to open the lock immediately. That would then become a natural sign that a lock is too difficult for that level of skill - if attempted by a skilled thief, but nothing more.
The point is, skilled thieves do not break their lockpicks.
And they usually dont jam the locks either.

Low skilled thieves would then break the lockpicks all the time and jam the locks all the time.
Necessitating a more robust approach and loss of some items depending on whether physical or magical force is used.

If a character doesnt have any thievery skills i would completely disable the option to even attempt lockpicking.

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Durability is an ineffective way to discourage bashing chests or doors open since there are far too many ways to render it meaningless (spells, throwaway weapons, fists, etc) and it adds an obnoxious amount of micromanagement to the overall game for the sake of one issue.

Breaking items in the chest is, if anything, even worse, since it imposes a "correct" way to play (Thou Shalt Take Lockpicking) and if someone wants to argue realism, the realistic way to open a chest or door would be to use a crowbar, or perhaps one of those pieces of scrap metal lying around everywhere, to lever it open rather than supposing that "wail on it with a greatsword" is the only possible method of forcing it open. For that matter, you could "realistically" just pick up a screwdriver - or a rock and nail - and dismantle the lock or hinges at no risk to the contents.

A lock doesn't keep people out by itself. It's just there to slow down/inconvenience someone who wants to get in, making it more likely that they'll get caught in the meantime. As it happens, all of the in-game options DO take time and most make noise, increasing the chance of discovery (especially with the new tracking system). Given that, durability/breakage is superfluous.

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Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
Durability is an ineffective way to discourage bashing chests or doors open since there are far too many ways to render it meaningless (spells, throwaway weapons, fists, etc) and it adds an obnoxious amount of micromanagement to the overall game for the sake of one issue.

Breaking items in the chest is, if anything, even worse, since it imposes a "correct" way to play (Thou Shalt Take Lockpicking) and if someone wants to argue realism, the realistic way to open a chest or door would be to use a crowbar, or perhaps one of those pieces of scrap metal lying around everywhere, to lever it open rather than supposing that "wail on it with a greatsword" is the only possible method of forcing it open. For that matter, you could "realistically" just pick up a screwdriver - or a rock and nail - and dismantle the lock or hinges at no risk to the contents.

A lock doesn't keep people out by itself. It's just there to slow down/inconvenience someone who wants to get in, making it more likely that they'll get caught in the meantime. As it happens, all of the in-game options DO take time and most make noise, increasing the chance of discovery (especially with the new tracking system). Given that, durability/breakage is superfluous.


You've only managed to list out problems everyone here agrees on to some extent or another.

The topic is whether or not we can/should move towards fixing it so durability isn't a tacked on meaningless addition.

Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by Alanta
all the suggestions would make it either pointless or tedious or would require too much work to implement.


This is largely the reason durability as a number should be gone.

The only good solution that didn't fully remove the mechanic so far was to have an item exist in the states of broken and not broken, with penalties for being broken.

Even that was just the good parts of an overall bad idea.


You just made wide sweeping statements without actually saying anything in regards to the actual suggestions themselves.

1. How is repair all tedious or hard to implement?
2. Making repair hammers consumables is tedious?
3. Connecting repair feature to crafting skill level is hard and or pointless?
4. Durability related abilities being added to skill trees sounds tedious or pointless? Really?
5. A reward bonus for durability/gear upkeep? How exactly do you find this hard to introduce?

Please point out how any of those ideas are 'pointless' and/or 'tedious.' Cause all of them address those two points specifically.

Further, you're point on too much work is a misnomer, most of that would be fairly easy depending on how they did things. On 'if-statement' takes care of point 5. A single function call for 1. A slight change in object interaction for 2 and 3. Hell, most of those don't even require new assets or anything. Just some added code.

The only thing their you have a point on actually require some substantial work would be adding durability related abilities.

To which I say, It would actually add to the combat and help make physical characters much more interesting. Which they desperately need with their three skill trees (one for each class) encompassing three types of play throughs.

It'd also add in new types of characters that are more hybrid oriented, like an air-warrior.

So.....yeah. Point 4 actually not only helps with this but other problems as well. I'd push and say they should implement such a thing, or something similar, no matter what they do for the durability in the future.


Last edited by aj0413; 25/10/16 06:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by aj0413

You've only managed to list out problems everyone here agrees on to some extent or another.

The topic is whether or not we can/should move towards fixing it so durability isn't a tacked on meaningless addition.


No, I've set forth why I feel that it should be dropped entirely: it doesn't do what it's supposed to do and other elements of the game already do the job better.

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Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
Originally Posted by aj0413

You've only managed to list out problems everyone here agrees on to some extent or another.

The topic is whether or not we can/should move towards fixing it so durability isn't a tacked on meaningless addition.


No, I've set forth why I feel that it should be dropped entirely: it doesn't do what it's supposed to do and other elements of the game already do the job better.


Here's how your posting reads:

Durability -> Here's what's wrong with it and why other mechanics make it moot
Follow up -> It's thus superfluous in it's current state
End point -> So we should get rid of it

My issue with that logic is simple:
Getting rid of something just cause it's broken does not jive with me. Never has, never will.

It's broken, it's superfluous so we fix it; or at least attempt to.

Last edited by aj0413; 25/10/16 07:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lar
If you bash open a wooden chest, you know you'll pay with durability. The cost here is that eventually that'll cause you to have to consume a repair hammer which has a gold value.


Wait, what?!
I'm guessing this mechanic itself must be broken because I've repaired items left right and centre with just the one repair hammer which has never run out.
Were they supposed to be 1-shots then?


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Repair hammers were made consumable in the last update (v3.0.5.530), as a test.

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give weapons that were used against doors, chests, etc a debuff. the more a weapon hits a door the severe the debuff.

debuff could be less damage in battle, eg:
the next 2 hits against a foe only do 90% damage.
the next 3 hits ... 90% damge.
the next 4 hits ... 90% damage.
...

or

the next 2 hits against a foe only do 90% damage.
the next 2 hits ... 80% damage
the next 2 hits ... 70% damage
...

or a combination of both.

could be remedied with a repair hammer, so we have "some kind" of repairing without the durability curse ;-)

Last edited by 4verse; 25/10/16 12:07 PM.

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Originally Posted by aj0413
It's broken, it's superfluous so we fix it

By the definition of superfluous, the way to fix it is to trim or remove entirely.

Durability isn't a fun way to introduce a drain on the player's resources, and in the context of Divinity it isn't an engaging one either. It doesn't contribute in a relevant way towards immersion, and it is frustrating to keep track of and maintain.
It should either be gone completely(the efficient way), or replaced with a different system.

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Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413
It's broken, it's superfluous so we fix it

By the definition of superfluous, the way to fix it is to trim or remove entirely.

Durability isn't a fun way to introduce a drain on the player's resources, and in the context of Divinity it isn't an engaging one either. It doesn't contribute in a relevant way towards immersion, and it is frustrating to keep track of and maintain.
It should either be gone completely(the efficient way), or replaced with a different system.


By definition it's a state of being and states of being can be changed.

No one is arguing about the current state of durability. Nor do we need to go back to the argument on immersion; I find it does add to it, you don't. End of story there.

Nearly every suggestion to reinvent/evolve durability as a resource is designed to target:
- Make it painless
- Make it relevant
- Make it interesting/engaging

I implore you to actually read and comment on the suggestions I keep pointing at. You seem determined to either ignore them or refuse to actually think and consider them and how they might effect things.

If all the suggestions I keep reiterating were actually implemented I think you'd find the idea of durability and the system it's a part of different enough to nearly be a new one

The current system is so bare bones that it really needs to evolve before you can even consider it a complete mechanic.

Last edited by aj0413; 25/10/16 10:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by Raze

Repair hammers were made consumable in the last update (v3.0.5.530), as a test.


Yay!

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Alright, I'll comment on actual suggestions you listed.
1. If all I need to do in regards to durability is pressing repair all from time to time then yes, it's pointless.
2. Yes, making repair hammers consumables is tedious. Because running to every merchant as soon as they restock in hopes they now have more repair hammers is tedious. Especially since bad rng is possible where they don't spawn any.
3. Connecting repair feature to crafting skill makes it necessary to pick that skill on somebody if I want to keep using my gear. I don't like when I have to pick something.
4. Durability related abilities might be interesting. But that'd make crafting skill even more essential. And such abilities are exactly what I meant by hard to implement.
5. A reward bonus for durability/gear upkeep. I'm the kind of player who prefers my builds to be perfect. If there's a reward I'll feel obliged to get this reward. Especially if it gives non-combat related bonuses. Which means this suggestion forces me to deal with durability.
Thus yes, every suggestion you pointed is either tedious, pointless or hard to implement.

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Originally Posted by Alanta
Alright, I'll comment on actual suggestions you listed.
1. If all I need to do in regards to durability is pressing repair all from time to time then yes, it's pointless.
2. Yes, making repair hammers consumables is tedious. Because running to every merchant as soon as they restock in hopes they now have more repair hammers is tedious. Especially since bad rng is possible where they don't spawn any.
3. Connecting repair feature to crafting skill makes it necessary to pick that skill on somebody if I want to keep using my gear. I don't like when I have to pick something.
4. Durability related abilities might be interesting. But that'd make crafting skill even more essential. And such abilities are exactly what I meant by hard to implement.
5. A reward bonus for durability/gear upkeep. I'm the kind of player who prefers my builds to be perfect. If there's a reward I'll feel obliged to get this reward. Especially if it gives non-combat related bonuses. Which means this suggestion forces me to deal with durability.
Thus yes, every suggestion you pointed is either tedious, pointless or hard to implement.


You do realize that you can just pay an NPC for repairs yes?

All your points essentially boil down to having to do the repairing yourself and why that bothers you -> you've never had to

Thus, the only thing that connecting crafting to repair does in your playstyle is determine whether to spend points to save gold or not.

And if you want perfect damage, you need crafting anyway.

Further, considering how common repair hammers are in RNG and merchant stocks, i find the idea that a player who wants to do the repair themselves will ever run out when they need them.

Secondly, repair all solves tediousness, not pointlessness. All the suggestions have to be taken as a whole package

Last edited by aj0413; 25/10/16 11:29 PM.
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I must admit I really, really hate the consumable repair hammers and identifying glasses. I find it conceptually bothersome but with repair in particular it makes an already quite tedious game mechanic that bit more insufferable. frown

In the former case my inclination is now to not bother repairing stuff but to just carry spares around instead. Which I also dislike as I prefer to keep my equipment down to a low level, but I find it's the least worst solution in terms of overall annoyance.


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That makes things a bit more bearable, yes. But your main suggestion seems to be durability related skills. If an enemy can break my weapon in the middle of the battle I need both crafting skill and repair hammers on everybody just in case.
And running to merchants to repair my gear after each battle is also tedious though less so than hunting for hammers.
About repair hammers being common. Lockpicks are common. Still I need to hunt for them when I decide I want to lockpick every locked chest. If I need to repair my gear after each battle (to keep the bonuses you suggest) I will run out of hammers.

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Originally Posted by vometia
I must admit I really, really hate the consumable repair hammers and identifying glasses. I find it conceptually bothersome but with repair in particular it makes an already quite tedious game mechanic that bit more insufferable. frown

In the former case my inclination is now to not bother repairing stuff but to just carry spares around instead. Which I also dislike as I prefer to keep my equipment down to a low level, but I find it's the least worst solution in terms of overall annoyance.


I can fairly understand this, but I think the issue here is that making hammers consumable and leaving in the tedious click for each item and making each item consume a hammer the problem

A simple repiar all that repairs all equipment on one character and uses one hammer would be far easier to manage.

Or even give each hammer a few charges and let one charge coincide with one repair all.

How would you feel about these?

Originally Posted by Alanta
That makes things a bit more bearable, yes. But your main suggestion seems to be durability related skills. If an enemy can break my weapon in the middle of the battle I need both crafting skill and repair hammers on everybody just in case.
And running to merchants to repair my gear after each battle is also tedious though less so than hunting for hammers.
About repair hammers being common. Lockpicks are common. Still I need to hunt for them when I decide I want to lockpick every locked chest. If I need to repair my gear after each battle (to keep the bonuses you suggest) I will run out of hammers.


I refer you to my response above to solve the issue of them running out quickly.

Secondly, I imagine that durability skills targeting enemy armor/weapons would be exceedingly rare for both the AI and player to use; depends on how you implement them. Most of the suggestions revolve around buffing yourself at the cost of durability. At which point if your weapon breaks, that was all you.

And the gear upkeep rewards are suppose to be transitional and temporary buffs like the sleeping bag one. If you really feel the need to have it up at all possible times and need to keep lots of hammers and invest in crafting to do so for, then I find that an appropriate cost to feed your perfectionist habit. Do you also eat ate every single opportunity to have a buff active? Same thing here, except instead of a turn cooldown, it lasts till you bash something a couple times

EDIT:
The idea that you "need' to keep full durability after every battle is purely a self created one. It's like saying you need to be able to crit with spells or you need to be able to use a specific skill to play the game....

Mechanically, none of the suggestions create a need, they just encourage dipping into crafting or paying attention to durability a bit more to keep it interesting,

Last edited by aj0413; 25/10/16 11:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by aj0413

A simple repiar all that repairs all equipment on one character and uses one hammer would be far easier to manage.

Or even give each hammer a few charges and let one charge coincide with one repair all.



What's the point of having consumable repair hammers if you can almost never run out of them? I guess that's my problem. If you always have enough that's pointless. If you always need more that's tedious.

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Originally Posted by Alanta
Originally Posted by aj0413

A simple repiar all that repairs all equipment on one character and uses one hammer would be far easier to manage.

Or even give each hammer a few charges and let one charge coincide with one repair all.



What's the point of having consumable repair hammers if you can almost never run out of them? I guess that's my problem. If you always have enough that's pointless. If you always need more that's tedious.


That's a fair stance, but that's an issue in spectrum. And that means that within the range of too much and too little, their should be a just right amount.

The idea was that by connecting the amount of durability returned when repairing to crafting, then players who don't want to worry or needle over it would just have enough to keep equipment upkeep between city visits without tedious clicking and crafters would have more than enough to keep up the durability bonus between battles without worry and/or could self buff at risk of their weapons with far greater management

Consider for a moment how often you need to repair something, consider if you had one hammer to repair all worn equipement two times that cost 30 gold.

Would you ever feel pressured over the worry of equipment breaking?

Last edited by aj0413; 26/10/16 12:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by aj0413

That's a fair stance, but that's an issue in spectrum. And that means that within the range of too much and too little, their should be a just right amount.

The idea was that by connecting the amount of durability returned when repairing to crafting, then players who don't want to worry or needle over it would just have enough to keep equipment upkeep between city visits without tedious clicking and crafters would have more than enough to keep up the durability bonus between battles without worry and/or could self buff at risk of their weapons with far greater management

Consider for a moment how often you need to repair something, consider if you had one hammer to repair all worn equipement two times that cost 30 gold.

Would you ever feel pressured over the worry of equipment breaking?

Well, that could work for me I guess. But balancing all that and adding new skills and repair charges is a lot of work that I'd rather see going to a mechanic I actually like instead of something I at best barely care about and at worst just want gone.

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