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error3 Offline OP
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I'm loving the new Rage, for debuffing strong enemy targets.

The new Rage works as following:
1 AP Cost
1 turn duration
4 turn CD

Target gains Enraged, giving the following stats:
100% Critical Chance
-100% Dodge
-100% Resistances to Fire/Earth/Water/Air/Poison

From the previous patch, the duration was halved and the penalties to dodge and resistances went up from 25%.

This is a pretty big nerf to those using Rage to gain 100% crit chance. There is now a real tradeoff of survivability and damage when using the ability.
Personally it seems too risky to use for buffing my melee characters now.

However, I have started taking Rage on all of my elemental damage characters.
Buffing the enemy instead causes them to take DOUBLE damage from all elemental sources until the next round, and for only 1 AP!

Rage just became an awesome debuff.


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Originally Posted by error3
I'm loving the new Rage, for debuffing strong enemy targets.

The new Rage works as following:
1 AP Cost
1 turn duration
4 turn CD

Target gains Enraged, giving the following stats:
100% Critical Chance
-100% Dodge
-100% Resistances to Fire/Earth/Water/Air/Poison

From the previous patch, the duration was halved and the penalties to dodge and resistances went up from 25%.

This is a pretty big nerf to those using Rage to gain 100% crit chance. There is now a real tradeoff of survivability and damage when using the ability.
Personally it seems too risky to use for buffing my melee characters now.

However, I have started taking Rage on all of my elemental damage characters.
Buffing the enemy instead causes them to take DOUBLE damage from all elemental sources until the next round, and for only 1 AP!

Rage just became an awesome debuff.



Wait, wut? Rage can now be cast on other targets? rpg006

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You could do that before as well, it just wasn't worth using as a debuff.

I hope that rage eventually becomes a self cast ability only.
I can see how it thematically doesnt haveto be a self buff only, just like the good old ogre mages in WCII you could treat it like a "spell", but it feels like it makes more sense to work similarly to adrenaline in the scoundrel tree.
I'd like rage better if the flavor of it was more like a barbarian skill about going berserk yourself, rather than cast it like a magical condition on other targets.

I also think it will be easier to balance as a worthwile skill if it is self cast only.

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I havn't preordered the game so I can't test it, but I really hope there will be plenty of spells such as this one, that an be either cast on friend or foe depending on your needs.

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I agree with the concept of spell flexibility, but a 1AP skill on a low cooldown that obliterates any elemental resistances of enemies just makes for a very boring skill. It just allows you to nuke enemies that would otherwise be really challenging entierly negating the drawback of giving them extra crit.
Enrage would just become a nobrainer skill that you pick up on every char regardless of what build they otherwise have.

Besides being OP with a double damage dealt to this enemy for 1AP skill, it is not an apropriate flavor either.
This kind of debuff is more what necromancy used to to in the first game.

So as I said, I agree with you that versatile spells are good in principle, but this particular skill is not in a good place at the moment.

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Rage not being a self-only skill is bewildering to me. It should be self-only.

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I also really like that freedom to decide myself what to do with my own skills.
I already loved rage as a debuff in DOS1. Rage+AbsorbElements+CrackedArmor was the only way to significantly reduce an enemies armor.
It was also a great touch that you could use the rage effect that way only with certain weapons and not the skill.
The only letdown that destroyed this use almost entirely was the (I feel like I may have mentioned that "now and then" here already...^^) that god damn awful RNG. As with a limited amount of content there was no guaranty to get such a weapon. So no way to plan for it.

So I'm for keeping the possibility to place a rage on the enemy, just for the sake of diversion, BUT reduce the debuff side, as it is both too strong right now as a debuff and too bad as a buff.

That said, I really loved, and still love, that skill for it's diversive duality!
So Larian, make good (and with that I mean a bit better than right now) use of that potential!

Last edited by Seelenernter; 23/10/16 12:45 PM.

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That version of rage feels a lot more like a pyrokinetic skill than a warfare skill.
Also making rage too good at nuking elemental defenses risks making the range of necromancy spells with a very similar intended effect lose their role in the game.

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Warlord did not get nerved, so regarding Warfare-AoE and Rage the core issue remains still a problem. For a warrior can be one turn of rage still enough to slaughter pretty everything, because he can farm dozens of AP while slaughtering them.

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Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Warlord did not get nerved, so regarding Warfare-AoE and Rage the core issue remains still a problem. For a warrior can be one turn of rage still enough to slaughter pretty everything, because he can farm dozens of AP while slaughtering them.


Indeed, but that's not a problem of mere rage but of said mechanics (pretty much unlimited AP and too powerful melee weapons).

Last edited by Seelenernter; 23/10/16 01:49 PM.

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Just kind of stating, that they 'nerf' is hardly a nerf at current state and more a 'buff' of rage, because you can now buff your self or debuff the enemie, both cases are pretty broken on their own way. Instead of increasing the debuff effect, they shoud just have lowered the crit-chance buff, wich many of us suggested. Give it an increase of 50% for more than one round, not 100%.

100% critchance from Rage makes every other 'crit-chance' increase pretty pointless as many already stated.

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Totally agree.

I'd go for something like: +30% crit, -30% ALL resistances (a sword should also hurt more if you carelessly run into it, shouldn't it?) and 2 turns duration


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Nice discussions on Rage everyone!

The major factors as discussed here are:
1. Rage is currently OP when used as a debuff
2. Spell flexibility can be fun, but is hard to balance
3. Reducing enemy resistances has traditionally been more of a Witchcraft flavor effect type
4. Rage as a self-buff is still viable, but not as dominating and with more drawback

#1 I don't think anyone is debating this, but for 1 point you can double the elemental damage of everyone on your team against a single target with essentially no drawback, since they will die.

#2 is where the jury is split. I absolutely love that we have a debuff to help Magic users, and I really enjoy flexible spells, as I believe player choice is an important part to fun combat. However, the devs didn't seem to consider this new, powerful use of the ability.
I think Kalrakh's suggestion of 50% crit chance and 50% debuffs sounds great!

#3 The current flavor of Rage seems similar to warrior "taunt" when used on an enemy, and a "beserker" style combat buff when used on self. As a non-magical (Warfare) ability the duality doesn't fit from flavor perspective., it might if it was under the Pyro skill as one post suggested.

#4 The only issue brought up here sounds more like a problem with Warlord. The proposed solution still sounds good for this case, however.

Conclusion:
The ability absolutely needs to be nerfed as a debuff (by either potency or flexibility).
If the devs make Rage self cast they should at least add an elemental debuff spell somewhere else, perhaps under Necro, to fill the vacuum left and give mages similar utility.

Edit: I enjoy the irony that in an effort to nerf Rage it was made more powerful, with a different application.

Last edited by error3; 23/10/16 02:51 PM.
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@error3
A very good sumary of the thread, thank you. smile

I just wanted to point out that I find it highly likely that there already are some defense reducing skills planned but not yet implemented for necromancy, since witchcraft had several debuff skills in the previous game and if any tree is to have curse flavoured abilities necromancy really is the best fit.

It's not that warfare can't have debuffs, indeed it already has some, but as a not overtly magical skilltree it feels better to have cripple, knockdown or armor reduction effects in this tree and reduction of magic resistances in a more suitable tree.

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Definately not pyro. Hasn't to do with fire and is otherwise more meta based, where pyro is more direct.

I can just say it again. They should keep it the way it was in DOS1, but add a reliable way of aquisition.
(maybe a recipe? Like a tormented soul combined with a gem to create a "wrathful soulstone" that adds a 50% chance to enrage hit enemies)[further note: the kind of gem used could determine the kind of effect that's applied, like wrathful, slothful, etc... for rage, slow etc.]

Whatever, the diversion should be the #1 goal.

That said, I wouldn't nerf the "flexibility" alone, as that wouldn't help the imbalance fact at all. (at best both with the additional application I described)
It's either too bad to use thanks to the debuff, or, if the enemies are CC-ed, OP as the drawback is negated entirely.

As for skill-shools/professions... since DOS1 I think there are too few of them. That's why the KS goals for +2 additional ones made me quite sad actually, as it showed it will be neglected again. MHO.

Last edited by Seelenernter; 23/10/16 05:15 PM.

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Doesn't this just swing it the other way though? Instead of it letting your melee characters nuke enemies, it allows mages to cripple enemy resistances for them to nuke. Not really seeing the difference in the application at the end of the day.

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I do like the versatility of rage being a good debuff, but it is a bit weird thematically that warriors have the best debuff in the game. Even -50% resistances would be pretty damn strong, and 100% crits is just redonkulus no matter what debuffs it has.

Some ideas:

-Simplest: 50% crit chance, -50% resistances. Still probably too good, but not absurdity on either end.

-Other simple solution is self-rage only, but still extremely good when enemies are all CC'd. Could also be self or ally buff only.

-Triples or quadruples crit chance instead of giving a flat amount, so it would synergize with a high crit chance instead of mostly negating its need.

-Resistance loss should probably be more physical resistances, or loss of armor, imo. Just weird it would reduce magical resistances.

-Resistances could also do something like "Brings physical resistances below 50 or 75 to 0." Or it halves resistances, or something. Some way where it'd be good for negating any defenses a character has, but characters with low defenses already aren't going to be affected by it as much. So raging an enemy mage isn't going to do as much to harm them, since they're not gaining the advantages of crits anyway.

-Cures CC and grants immunity to all hard CC for the turn. Wouldn't just be able to rage a stunned enemy and wail on them, though this obviously makes it an insanely good buff for your allies too. (would have to go with crit chance and resistance nerfs, I think).

-Add a movement speed buff if crit chance is lowered a lot.

A warlord nerf is in order as well. Maybe only +1 AP, but kills also heal you and/or boost your movespeed?



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Originally Posted by Luuin
Doesn't this just swing it the other way though? Instead of it letting your melee characters nuke enemies, it allows mages to cripple enemy resistances for them to nuke. Not really seeing the difference in the application at the end of the day.


IDK if your responding to my post? If so, then yes, the second form of application is actually just for the diversion, as it was in DOS1. (which was a nice idea, imho) A "rage-grenade" would be another way. Like it was with reduced armor in DOS1 (silver arrows or piercing grenades exclusive)
This means indeed it'll not change the "OP-ness", so it's still needed to tone it down a bit. I'd go for +30/-30 (but 2 turns therefor), as 50 is quite high still, but would also be better than it is right now.

edit:
how about underlining that "calming down" aspect of it, by making it variable in effect? 3 rounds, 1st 30/-30, second 20/-20, third 10/-10?
Just an idea that crossed my mind.

Last edited by Seelenernter; 23/10/16 06:01 PM.

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Originally Posted by Luuin
Doesn't this just swing it the other way though? Instead of it letting your melee characters nuke enemies, it allows mages to cripple enemy resistances for them to nuke. Not really seeing the difference in the application at the end of the day.


Correct. Rage has now become OP for Mages to debuff enemies with and kill them, instead of self-buffing with Rage being OP for one's own crits.

Originally Posted by Seelenernter
Definately not pyro. Hasn't to do with fire and is otherwise more meta based, where pyro is more direct.


I was thinking it would be similar to the Pyro skill Burn My Eyes, which causes the target gain "Clear-Minded" and increases all stats. This is an example of an already-existing Fire skill focusing on changing the mental state of the target. Rage could become "Burning Rage", or something. Or not.
I'm not too concerned on the name or school an ability like this might get assigned too, I was just acknowledging that affecting a Target's mind felt magical. The ability could be renamed to imply shouting at the target to have the same effect though, and this could fit with what a Warrior type could do, flavor-wise.
The flavor elements are pretty subjective. The combat imbalance is more tangible.

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The problem with Rage is that, basically, I was able to steamroll all of Fort Joy by CC'ing Magisters and cutting them to shreds with my Raged-up, Flesh Sacrifice-using elven Knight. You put an enemy in front of that guy and he'll kill it, and who cares about a few levels of difference right?

Another way to solve the issue of Rage is to increase the duration of Rage and transform it into an ability of diminishing returns. Turn 1, you get 75% crits and 75% dodge debuff, turn 2 it's just 50%, turn 3 it's 25% and then gone. With perhaps a side-effect of lowering dodging chance by 25% for one round after the Rage effect is over.

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