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So you are building a mage and you have the same complaint that many people do "They are too weak" and at the start unless you really gun for damage... It is true (and you won't gun for damage, the support spells are too important).

However, there is something that increases your damage output far greater than a single point of intelligence will...

Add points to Memory!

Mages have a problem in that the majority of their damage comes from their spells and not their attacks (Wands don't shine until much later... and I prefer a shield as a mage) and thus the first instinct is to pump points into intelligence as much as you can.

The issue with that is that Mages also need to lay down CC and if they use up their skills they basically become useless.
-Tip: The Scoundrel should have Chloroform to aid the mage.

However a little trick of focusing strongly on memory means that you will have a constant flow of highly damaging spells to use over and over again. The goal is you should be able to cast skills every single turn, for your entire turn, yet still have a skill off cooldown before running out.

Mages should be built wide, not tall. That is how you get their damage output high.

---

Some tips:
-You should have at LEAST two complimentary elemental skills. You do benefit from having a point in all four.
-Contamination and Ignition are useful in that they recover fast, but only use them if there is nothing to ignite.
--Yes I know it is ironic that those skills are good... Except for their intended purpose.
-Do not save up AoEs to "Hit more enemies" unless you can put in equally great move.
-Keeping enemies in lockdown is as good as killing them, if you can CC two enemies or kill one... Usually CCing two is better.
-Your mage shouldn't be the only source of support. Other classes should get some form of healing and armor healing. No mage can keep up with the enemies alone.
-Necromancy is better for frontline warriors. Odd given Witches have it.
-Actually look at the enemy's armors... Most of the time don't even bother trying to break a mage's magic armor.
-Fossil Strike, Rupture, and a few hydrosophy skills are the few that can give some form of CC without breaking armor. The slow helps more then you know.

Last edited by Neonivek; 12/02/17 04:57 PM.
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It really doesn't matter if you can deal tons of magical damage every turn with utility because your damage type is different from that of your teammates. You might deal 100 damage this turn, but only 10 really goes to the healthpool because the other 90 have to go through magic armour first.

With a hybrid comp of 2 magic 2 physicals, your enemies effective health pool is greatly increased because you have to burn through both physical and magical armour to kill them. Meanwhile, a comp like 3 physical 1 mage will only have to deal with physical armour on one character and the other two teammate can proceed to rekt the actual health for a kill.

This is why it's way better to invest about 4 points into memory and give the healing all the great support and debuff spell and don't bother with damage stuffs, because if you're the only mage, you will never be able to break through the magic shield fast enough before they already die from the physical damage stomp.

And even if you invest in mem + damage, you still have a lot of disadvantage compared to physical damagers

-Your talent will only synergize with a certain element while 2h/archery will boost every possible damage. 2H for example, is a really ridiculous one with both weapon damage and crit damage in one talent.

-Your real advantage is the guaranteed hit rate but that is removed the moment you gain access to "Bless" and can easily have near 100% hit rate on every target with physical damage

-You can't crit without the perk and even when you crit, the chance is reduced.

-Enemy resistance value varies unlike physical. While this sometime work in your favour, majority of the time, it doesn't.

It's because mages have these weaknesses that they are weaker than physical damager.

I'm really disappointed that the highest magical damage source in the game is not a mage casting spells. It's a mage wielding staff with 1 in Warfare, abusing Rage crit with warfare skills for huge AoE magical damage (anything elemental like air,water,fire = magic damage that scale with str or int based on weapon type). To further increase this damage, have someone else cast rage on you for the guranteed crit buff and and use your rage on the stronger enemy to -100% their resist to your damage. This stack and you end up playing with a *3 or even *4 final damage multiplier (crit and negative resist)

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Originally Posted by Ellezard
It really doesn't matter if you can deal tons of magical damage every turn with utility because your damage type is different from that of your teammates. You might deal 100 damage this turn, but only 10 really goes to the healthpool because the other 90 have to go through magic armour first.

With a hybrid comp of 2 magic 2 physicals, your enemies effective health pool is greatly increased because you have to burn through both physical and magical armour to kill them. Meanwhile, a comp like 3 physical 1 mage will only have to deal with physical armour on one character and the other two teammate can proceed to rekt the actual health for a kill.


I'm not sure if having a 3 physical 1 magic damager (or all physical damage party) will necessarily be advantageous for every fight in the whole game. Having all/most physical damage lets you focus down targets easier (especially mages), but I imagine certain enemies will be much tougher. The Dragon Knight has 600 magic armor and 200 physical armor or something like that -- I could easily imagine a group of enemies having 600 physical armor and 200 magic armor later in the game. I think a hybrid party with 1-2 magic damagers would deal with this fight much better than a full physical party because they could start CCing the enemies much sooner (nevermind the enemies being immune to knockdown), even if a focus firing all physical group might be able to take down individual enemies faster.

It is a bit weird that a raged staff user is pretty much the best magic damage in the game, though it does take intelligence to max the potential for that. I could see mages getting stronger as the game progresses as well as they gain more access to a variety of powerful spells, while warriors, rogues, and rangers only really have one tree to access.

Last edited by Baardvark; 13/02/17 02:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by Baardvark
Originally Posted by Ellezard
It really doesn't matter if you can deal tons of magical damage every turn with utility because your damage type is different from that of your teammates. You might deal 100 damage this turn, but only 10 really goes to the healthpool because the other 90 have to go through magic armour first.

With a hybrid comp of 2 magic 2 physicals, your enemies effective health pool is greatly increased because you have to burn through both physical and magical armour to kill them. Meanwhile, a comp like 3 physical 1 mage will only have to deal with physical armour on one character and the other two teammate can proceed to rekt the actual health for a kill.


I'm not sure if having a 3 physical 1 magic damager (or all physical damage party) will necessarily be advantageous for every fight in the whole game. Having all/most physical damage lets you focus down targets easier (especially mages), but I imagine certain enemies will be much tougher. The Dragon Knight has 600 magic armor and 200 physical armor or something like that -- I could easily imagine a group of enemies having 600 physical armor and 200 magic armor later in the game. I think a hybrid party with 1-2 magic damagers would deal with this fight much better than a full physical party because they could start CCing the enemies much sooner (nevermind the enemies being immune to knockdown), even if a focus firing all physical group might be able to take down individual enemies faster.

It is a bit weird that a raged staff user is pretty much the best magic damage in the game, though it does take intelligence to max the potential for that. I could see mages getting stronger as the game progresses as well as they gain more access to a variety of powerful spells, while warriors, rogues, and rangers only really have one tree to access.


Although mobs with 600 armor and 200 magic armor might exist, the same can be said about 200 armor and 600 magic armor as well, and that's even harder to deal with as a magic damage dealer because they don't have the same ridiculous amount of damage stacking like Physical do.

Even if we have more spells, unless source gets some kind of adjustments to become way more accessible (which I doubt it based on how Larian said they want to make source feel way more important and scarce), mage still suffer from having way weaker basic skill compared to stuffs like Crippling blow which clearly does way too much damage for a 2 AP skill.

So I wouldn't say that mages will suddenly become way stronger with how limited source spells will be and that they still suffer from talent choice like Pyro increasing only Fire damage unlike 2h that increase even rage-staff on a pure str 2h, allowing them to deal huge damage as well if they abuse the self-rage + enemy rage for a minimal *3 damage factor.

Last edited by Ellezard; 13/02/17 02:43 AM.
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The problem comes from multiple sources (See what I did there?):

1. Mages are heavily limited by applying effects that are blocked by magical armor. Physical damage dealer, not so much.
2. Mages effectiveness is dependent on combo effects such as Poison/Oil + Burning and lack such combos for other elements as well as having theses combos effectiveness reduced by Magical Armor.
3. Enemies have more Range than the players. So a melee character isn't as disadvantaged as a Mage because a melee characters has more than enough gap closer to close that extra range while a caster needs to put itself at bigger risk to position themselves when enemies have more area covered by their broken range.
4. Can't invest as much (or at all) in weapon combat ability. This means Wands and Staves won't do much damage because unlike physical damage dealer, caster abilities scale on their respective combat ability and not on the combat ability + the weapon combat ability. Meanwhile, Physical damage dealer have their physical abilities scale on both their weapon combat ability and the respective combat ability of their class. Like a Ranger's Ricochet get boosted by both Huntsman and Ranged ability while a Pyro Mage's Fireball only get boosted by Pyrokinetics.
5. The current way source abilities function. Since abilities are more important to caster than they are for physical damage dealer, this hurts caster much more.

Last edited by snap; 13/02/17 04:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by snap
Like a Ranger's Ricochet get boosted by both Huntsman and Ranged ability while a Pyro Mage's Fireball only get boosted by Pyrokinetics.
That is true but you would be nuts to put more than one point into Huntsman as a Ranger. You would be better off putting it into Ranged.

If you are playing Inquisitor you similarly stack two handed with the INT bonus from your staff with crippling blow or whatever. This is a fun class to play.

What is weak ATM I think is pure mage damage. Just like you say.

Either Mage damage should increase or (preferably) physical should be decreased. At the moment Archer is by far the strongest - especially with Marksmans Fang dealing damage straight. Same as the last game really.

At the moment you may as well just have 4 archers (with scoundrel and chlorophyll). Or perhaps 3 and a support mage with Infect.

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Enemies have four types right now

1) No Armor or Magic Armor
2) Balanced Armor to Magic Armor
3) High Armor, low Magic Armor
4) Low Armor, High Magic Armor

A good mage is effective against 1, 2, and 3.

None of your physical team mates is good against 3 (and some won't be good against the first)

No really build that memory. You will go from "Mages are weak" to probably being the second or most powerful member of your team. I am not just saying that.

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Originally Posted by Neonivek
Enemies have four types right now

1) No Armor or Magic Armor
2) Balanced Armor to Magic Armor
3) High Armor, low Magic Armor
4) Low Armor, High Magic Armor

A good mage is effective against 1, 2, and 3.

None of your physical team mates is good against 3 (and some won't be good against the first)

No really build that memory. You will go from "Mages are weak" to probably being the second or most powerful member of your team. I am not just saying that.


Even 3 get rekt by physical damage team atm if you abuse rage + warfare.

I went Mem with mages too. They felt good at first abusing a bunch of magical combo for huge damage until about level 4 where you start getting ridiculous weapon. Running the game again twice in the new patch, pre and after hot-fix, my 3 physical team ended 90% of the fight in 1 or 2 turns.

Lohse only gets to act ONCE for a mage at 90% of the fight. ONCE. She buffs Red prince 2h With Rage, Haste, Favour wind. Adrenaline, Reposition close to enemy, teleport and swap to have a group of 3. Then, on Red prince turn, teleport another one for a group of 4 and proceed to kill 4 enemies at once including the tanky swashbuckler with a 5 ap combo (Crip, Whirlwind, Battering ram). With a good level 7 weapon, 2H Warfare is capable of removing all the armour from Alexander in one turn and also inflict knockdown with battering or stomp.

IT didn't matter that Lohse had like 15 spells to play with because she only get to use 4 most of the time.

Last edited by Ellezard; 13/02/17 11:46 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ellezard
IT didn't matter that Lohse had like 15 spells to play with because she only get to use 4 most of the time.
You are aware that without some boost you only have 4 AP per turn? And most spells cost 2 AP.

Would you like her to have 15 AP per turn? Certainly it would make your fights easier.

How about a "kill the lot of them" spell? For 1 AP?

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Originally Posted by lx07
Originally Posted by Ellezard
IT didn't matter that Lohse had like 15 spells to play with because she only get to use 4 most of the time.
You are aware that without some boost you only have 4 AP per turn? And most spells cost 2 AP.

Would you like her to have 15 AP per turn? Certainly it would make your fights easier.

How about a "kill the lot of them" spell? For 1 AP?


The issue with mages is that they're the only fair and balance damager on your side because enemies don't know how to buff the same guy 100 different times before letting him hit a bunch of enemies and do a 100-0 combo with only one rotation.

(on the other hand, enemy mages get extended range and spammable source spell to make up for how weak their melees are from not knowing how to buffs)

You need to cast at least 3 different damage spells to be able to keep up with what a 2H damager can do with a single buffed attack.

An Impale-Fireball combo with 4 AP can't even deal 70% of what a single Rage-Crippling can do for only 3 AP after you get your first colored 2H weapon. Add in Battering ram for 4 AP as well and you already need another rotation to make up for the damage differences.

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Originally Posted by Ellezard

(on the other hand, enemy mages get extended range and spammable source spell to make up for how weak their melees are from not knowing how to buffs)
NPC are from AI 1.0 version. Swen, the Larian leader and company owner told that NPC will be rebuilded to fit rules and AI 2.0 features.

BTW: I like your analyst of a power player.

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Oh I agree. Classes giving physical damage do too much compared to magic.

2H isn't that great though any more. Archer (especially), scoundrel and dual wield 1H are all better when it comes to damage than 2H.

Mage is at the bottom by a long way. I guess it isn't what they are for though - more for a support role if you need them at all.

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From the 4 runs I did, my damage rating is as followed

2H > Bow > Knives > Magic

The reason 2H is considered to be the best is because it deals huge damage that is also AoE. That's the advantage it has over all the other physical type as majority of them are single-target especially knives. Combined with Warlord and acting last (so you can group enemies for him), it's normal to see a 2H build kill 4-5 targets from full health in a single turn.

The best single-target damage source however, is bow thanks to Preempt buffed rage snipe and that you can stack Rage with Highground for a minimal of 1.8x damage bonus (1.5 Crit * 1.2 Highground) .When you consider that Adrenaline-Crossbow can hit twice while also having higher base crit than usual (like 1.8 * 1.2 for a massive 2.16 per highground crit on gears that already have about 25% more damage than bow), it's really ridiculous especially with Elven racial thrown into the mix.

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Originally Posted by lx07
That is true but you would be nuts to put more than one point into Huntsman as a Ranger.

Huntsman gives much more damage output than Ranged...
So long as you understand how high ground works and how you can benefit from it.

10% damage ­> 5% damage + 1% crit
Even with 200% crit multiplier, it would take at the very least 40 points into Huntsman for that extra 5% damage to be of lower value than 1% crit chance.

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"An Impale-Fireball combo with 4 AP can't even deal 70% of what a single Rage-Crippling can do "

But a fireball + Magic Poison Dart... Does far more damage than that.

First it does its damage, then it does "Is poisoned" damage, then it does explodes damage, then it redoes on fire damage, then it gives off poison gas, then that gas does its damage, then the gas explodes doing fire damage. THEN it does damage over time and walking damage... AND area denies.

Not sure why you are using Impale though except to use a free CC.

And that is assuming you don't ALREADY have the combo set up. If they are already in fire, poison, or oil... That damage goes up even higher!

But even then... The turn after that... The Warrior doesn't have Rage-Crippling.

You though still have Fire Darts + Fossil Strike... You have Hail which is a Armor ignoring CC... And you have teleport which is another armor ignoring CC.

All the while you can keep at least three enemies locked down indefinitely from relative safety. It is your best asset.

Last edited by Neonivek; 14/02/17 07:07 AM.
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Originally Posted by Neonivek

But even then... The turn after that... The Warrior doesn't have Rage-Crippling.


Easiest to just reply to this part.

A well played physical team has no "turn after" in majority of the fight.

The only long fights in the game that I had on my last run without a single super 2h purple gear were

1) Multiple void worm spawning in the ruin near the seeker base. This one is forced to last long because you can't just wipe the whole thing in one go. It's also the only fight where you have to be careful about meleeing because the worm explode on death and you have to use something like a max range crippling to prevent the explosion damage. This lasted 3 rounds because that was how long it took to get all of them to spawn for a wipe on the last turns.

2) The boss Alexander fight because void worm spawned later into the fight. It took only 2 rounds to wipe all the magistrate, gheist and Alexander. The void worm took another 3 turns from just basic attacking it to death because you don't even need another set of skill when the basic does 100 a hit anyway.

3) Special case Void-woken fight which lasted 3 round simply because Void Woken choose to not do anything and stayed out of range for a few round. It was fortunate to be the only one that was outside the range of my teleport so I just went and wiped all the skeletons on R1 and killed him a turn later after it teleported in on R2 to get gibbed by the archer + knives.

I repeated the same strat every fight and anything non-boss ends in 1 round or 1.5 round (archer/knives finishing those with slimmer of health left before it even cycles back to my warrior or mage)

Also, Rage and 1-turn buffs actually last for 2 action phase when casted in combat. When it cycles to your turn again, your Rage is still active with 0.001 turn duration something on the timer. You get to crit with your skills and then crit with your basic swings afterward.

And like I mentioned, if you're going to do magic damage, Warfare-Staff is the best magic damager in the game. I will even do a 4-mage run for the lol with this strat later and see how many fights I can end in a single turn from abusing highwit-swap to a warlord rage-staff with extra rage on enemies that have high health for another *2 damage.

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I am not sure how well that will work given how many spells you need to get this off the ground... Early game it might be a tiny bit difficult.

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Originally Posted by Neonivek
I am not sure how well that will work given how many spells you need to get this off the ground... Early game it might be a tiny bit difficult.


Get to level 4 to unlock all books. (easily doable with pet pal and a few killing like Migo and some magistrate in town)
Afk for an hour after purchasing required skills, or purchase them before I level up
Skill book in the shop will be restocked.

The hotfix economy just make this process 10x easier to accomplish because of the insane amount of gold you pick up with super cheap skill book pricing.

Get wit build (Int scaling isn't that high and there's no item scaling with spells). 17-18 wits pretty much guarantee going first until you clear the whole Fort Joy and 20 wits will clear the rest of the Marsh.

Round everyone up with a few teleport and swap

At least 2 people using AoE spells to Staff late game

Proceed to break the game because staffwhackingisbestmagic

Last edited by Ellezard; 14/02/17 02:34 PM.
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The problem is really the one that plagues all RPGs and would still exist without the armor concept (but is worse with it). Although you're encouraged to build a balanced party it's always better to stack certain classes. Rogues/Rangers/2handers /w rage are just the most obvious due to great weapons. A 3/4th mage party is just as bad as the dominant physical paradigm with like, 3 archers, or whatever.

Example:

Your party is an inquisitor and 3 mages (FIRE+aero or FIRE + geo).
high wits/int.
Port all npcs into same spot.
haste/Rage.
Fire ball/spontaneous combustion entire group.
Collect loot, move on.

It's what I'm doing right now and it's as easy as Rogue/Rogue/War/Enc was.

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Don't forget that mages have to deal with NPC elemental resistance as well, on top of cutting through magical armor. Physical don't have to do that since there's no armor rating on gear anymore. You cant become 90% resistance to physical damage.


More often then not you're trying to kill someone who's 20% or 30% immune to all but 1 element, while they also have a 110% resistance to one, so you end up healing them unintentionally since it's a huge waste of points to have more than 2 elements. you spread yourself too thin.

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