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#601212 25/03/17 09:36 PM
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Mathieu Offline OP
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Hi there, i played trought this alpha somes hours and went to theorycraft a bit.
I found the races not really "balances", let me explain.
First thing you expect is to play a lizard as a wizard, basically for the +2 int and the cool spell and that's right it's good. Same goes as a dwarf warrior etc...

But looking at the +2 in one stat matter only early game, (currently my wizard lizard is level 7 and have like 30 int and 24 mem so +2 isnt that impacting). So let's take a look at the races spells.
-lizard: breath of fire (dunno the exact word but you see what i am talking about right?) 1 ap to use, not good damage at all (in comparaison to other spell ofc) at least dealing aoe. The only way of this spell beeing worth is using it in combo with other element (basiccally like every magic spell in dos2 tho). I would say not that good but can be a situational choice.
-dwarf: cost 2 ap (hit me if i am wrong and it's only one), if no physical armor set petrified for 2 turn. Great a good cc spell, but a wich cost? In comparaison to the warfare spell it's not fiting up just because it dont deal damages at all. For the same cost you can set 1 turn cc in aoe and dealing damages. This one isnt bad, but still can find better combinaisons i guess.
-human: encourage (1ap), good buff in aoe for all the team most of the time (if not over-splitted). Well it's only good on a support i guess because you dont wanna use one ap in a damage dealer, better buffing youself and keeping that ap to burst next turn.
-elves: flesh sacrifice (isnt it the right name?) first thing 0 ap to use, ok it's cheat as hell good not what giving a buff of +20% damage and -1 constitution (for 2 turn) and +1 ap. That mean that this spell dont cost 0 ap, but really -1 ap (cause you gain 1 ap when you're using it). Not only giving ap but bosting your damages as well (+20%) and for 2 turns. Only a minor malus that is -1 const (like i said earlyer the +2 racial dont bother in mid/end game, same for the malus of -1).

If we copare racial spells you have a gap of 2 ap between elves and other (3 for dwarfs). This is HUGE in dos2 this means barly half ap of a turn (that is 4 ap per turn i remind). In theory any damage dealer should be playing an elf, because +1 ap and +20% damages (dont mind constit at this point really) is clearly overwhelming. For thoses saying but an elf mage have +2 finesse and not +2 int, the +20% damages means as good as an +4 int for the damages (5% per point).
Really the 1ap boost is too much i think.

To keep it balanced there is 2 ways, nerfing elves (that's sad i think the spell is well made and the race is fine like that); and adjusting other's races spells, like this as an exemple:
-dwarfs: cost only 1 ap (maybe increasing the cooldown by 1 turn so)
-humain and lizards: decrasing the cost at 0 ap.

I explain why decrasing the cost of the human spell (becaus i think after what i said it's obvious for lizards), for me humans now are all only support (wont take a buf for team costing 1 ap on damage dealer, it's lossing 1/4 of a turn for a buff really not that good in term of self damage, i mean 5% isnt that much). That's why making it to 0 ap whould encourage taking human as damage dealers.

Last thing about encourage spell, i could aslo sugest a refonte (if the 0 ap proposition isnt fiting you think): keepink the cost at 1/2 ap but instead buffing all alies (like commander not himself) with a +10%/+20% damages and restoring 10%/20% of there magical and physical armor. this buff whould last only one turn. I think of it as the leader screaming in the right moment to boost momentally his squad (that's why a better boost of damages/tankyness but in a few time).

Whoa i spoke a lot here, hope i wasn't boring and my english masn't hard to read wink

In the wait of your replies,

Lichmeister.

Ps: Princess Luna is best pony!

Last edited by Mathieu; 25/03/17 09:36 PM.
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Lizard: yeah the fire spell is only useful in a mage like setup with points in pyro and geo.

Dwarf: I agree its an underwhelming disable since warfare has access to so many others and the rage + warlord build tends to obliterate everything before CC becomes a problem.

Human: I surmise you are saying decrease the AP cost of encourage down to 0 so non-support classes have an easier use, this is half-right. My reasoning being that sometimes you wish to spend at least 2 AP and allow enemies to close the gap having a full bar of ap next turn. Having it like a team heal/buff would Hurt builds making use of two attributes (think int + finesse from shadow blade) having a buff handy that increases these attributes makes these builds better.

ELF: yeah its been discussed on the forums that its op.

p.s. yeah i forgot the word to describe mixed builds


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The missbalanced races are a recurring topic.

It's pretty obvious, that elves got the most love, because everything about them feels far more unique and special. All other races got only reused DOS1 skills, while elves got a special skill just for them.

Elven skill is also the only one, that really keeps it strength even on higher level. Neither Fire breath nor Encourage have much of an impact left even at level 6, because you get so many bonus stats from items. There are suggestions out there to replace Fire breath with a Shed Skin skill and to give Encourage a percentage effect on stats (15-20%). And other stuff is there as well. Even for DOS1 Encourage was pretty weak on later levels, but you got more and more AP there, so it got cheaper to use over time.

Dwarves probably got the worst stuff: STR for warrior and Sneaking for rogues. Petrify isn't bad, but because it only works after armor got removed, it is often easier just to kill them off.

P. S.: The constitution malus of Flesh Sacrifice increases with your level, if they did not change that. wink

P. P. S.: Princess Molestia is a dirty little pony. xD

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Mathieu Offline OP
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I didn't knew that Flesh sacrifice constit malus was increasing :O Thus i saw that the encourage consitit bonus is raising as well (making it a little less usless), it was like +2 constit (+1 others stats) at level 6 or 7. Maybe upping the bonus to others stats as well would keep it up with other spell (that are meant to be upgraded i hope).

PS: Molestia, you mean sunbut? wink

PS : Princess Luna is still best pony tho :3

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The last time I played, it did. And it still does, if they did not change it. Sadly even if the CON bonus would increase for Encourage, CON is currently still pretty useless stat.

P. S.: No idea who sunbut is, but Molestia is a naughty version of Celestia. You could google it, but perhaps you should not. laugh

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The PS part of this discussion is disturbing. I'm certainly not Googling anything.


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Mathieu Offline OP
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I test on my last save and Flesh Offering constit debbuf is rightly scaling where level 7 and was a -3 constit tho.

PS: Where instroring here a new type of discussion: the MLP PS thread it's worth it :p

PSS: MLP isnt googoling disturbing, but part of the fandom can bi tho :3, fromage is ok tho ^^

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Whats the harm in -3 cons when the elf builds are centered around finesse i;ve have a few playthroughs where my elf has 30+ finesse and im hard pressed to notice the deficits here.


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At current state CON ist just to meaningless to feel anything either way.

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Yeah, this is an aspect that always bothered me and I am sure others have mentioned it as well. The ability elves get is just so much better, in that it accurately displays the character/flavor of their race, and is also an ability that is useful almost no matter your level, and no matter your build.

That is something that needs to be addressed and thought of for the others. They need an ability that is unique to, and properly represents their race, but it must also be useful no matter the level or type/build of character.

It needs to be something, that actually has some kind of an impact in encounters even against enemies. Something that can even set apart fighting human enemies, or enemies of other races, or groups of mixed or comboed races.

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In the latest patch, Flesh Sacrifice received a nerf, from +20% damage down to +10% damage. That makes it close to half as powerful as it was. If it's still too good, there is one other possible nerf I can think of:

Remove the +1 AP provided, but it still costs 0 AP. (Or make Flesh Sacrifice cost 1 AP to use and still provide 1 AP.)

That change would still keep the skill as free to use, but it wouldn't give an extra bonus.

***

I think Encourage is okay, but it should scale up the stats provided with character level, and I'd like it to add an extra amount of healing, between +5%-15%. It should also only be target-able on the caster, OR the 15 meter radius should radiate out from the target, not the caster.


Right now I think the Dwarven Racial skill might be bugged, the "2 turn" petrification seems to wear off after one turn. I'll test it more. EDIT: Yep, seems to be bugged.

I'll also continue to promote Shed Skin as the new racial for Lizards. If the Lizard is not inflicted by Hard CC and can act, they can remove most debuffs from themselves (possibly including Disarmed and Silenced) at the cost of some temporary penalty for 1-3 turns. I suggested CON, but right now CON is not so important because of armor.

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Quote
I'll also continue to promote Shed Skin as the new racial for Lizards. If the Lizard is not inflicted by Hard CC and can act, they can remove most debuffs from themselves (possibly including Disarmed and Silenced) at the cost of some temporary penalty for 1-3 turns. I suggested CON, but right now CON is not so important because of armor.


Fire breath for lizards is a cool ability, but since there are so many ways to set things on fire already its kinda useless. I really like your idea of shed skin it seems really awesome and its fun to see a more all out defensive racial ability.

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kind of a waste though since the new animation looks awesome.


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Originally Posted by Bullethose
kind of a waste though since the new animation looks awesome.


It still summons a Dragon head, though. No one is saying to outright DELETE Fire Breath, just move it to Pyrokinetic. They can get rid of the dangerous accidental-friendly-fire-machine "Ignition" if needed.

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I think nerfing flesh sacrifice wasn't a right thing to do ( or at least the way they nerfed it wasn't good, I think getting more debuff on constitution would be the better nerf because it would make the skill a high risk high reward skill and also it would fit the theme of '' sacrificing something to become stronger '')
I think it would be better if they would buff the other racial skills
Because it is important that the racial skills are significant and strong skills so you can feel some noticeable differences of the races when fighting
When they are too powerless to be used in an effective way then a great opportunity would be missed
I think it would be good if these skills wouldn't stack with intelligence or strength etc. but if all of them would stack with the character level
That way you can balance them and make sure that there is a significant difference of when I fight with a lizard or with an elv or human
If you read this, dear larian worker, please reconsider your way of approaching balancing the races

I think that the races feel different in the story and such but not in the fights which could be managed (in my opinion) with stronger racial skills for every race

Last edited by Youphreak; 31/03/17 06:37 PM.
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At the very least racial skills should scale with level, and preferably be made more versatile.
There is no class that does not benefit from the elf racial, and it is the only racial this is true for.
Instead of nerfing the only good racial they should rework the other races.
Lizards could get some passive elemental resistance for example, and dwarves some physical resistance.
Humans crit bonus could instead be a bonus to max critical damage, so as not to be useless for a rogue.
Just minor things like that would go a long way towards making all races equally desirable for all classes.

Last edited by Yun; 31/03/17 05:11 PM.
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people get really antsy when you mention passive bonuses i honestly wouldn't mind if we could chose from 2 for each race.


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I actually use elven racial almost exclusively for the 1 ap bonus so I wouldn't want it nerfed. I'd rather see other racials buffed to this level.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey

I'll also continue to promote Shed Skin as the new racial for Lizards. If the Lizard is not inflicted by Hard CC and can act, they can remove most debuffs from themselves (possibly including Disarmed and Silenced) at the cost of some temporary penalty for 1-3 turns. I suggested CON, but right now CON is not so important because of armor.


playing through with the new metamorpher class and found this skillbook:

[Linked Image]

it seems like a skill similar to your idea Stabbey and i think its a nice addition to all skills and i didnt see this in any of the update videos so i though you guys would like to know of it. smile

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This skill is going to be so broken with adrenalin-rage-warlord combo. At the very least is should cost 1 ap.

Edit: though I wouldn't mind it if it was lizards racial. Polymorf though right now seems so op I'm starting to suspect there was a clear bias involved.

Last edited by Alanta; 31/03/17 11:31 PM.
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