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#603639 15/05/17 04:51 PM
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Hello, I'm MoltenMuffin. I've played quite a bit of the Div 2 early access on steam (~65 Hours). I must say I love this game and want nothing other than to try and give my feedback so that the game may be the best it possibly can. Today, I have some feedback on the Elf Racials, as I feel they can simply outshine the other races - more so than simply feeling like a bonus, I get the feeling of being in a disadvantage when I try other races.

+2 to finesse is a hit or miss (heh), but the extra dodge is never bad, this is fine and generally not too great of an importance as all +2 attribute racials are, mostly nice if they work with the build you're going, but not too strong to not play a build around another primary stat.

Blood Sacrifice 10% damage and 1 ap for a scaling constitution debuff. It used to be 25% damage before it was changed, as it was too powerful, but I still feel It is very powerful - not necessarily because of the % damage, but the 1 ap.
1 AP enables so many things, like backlash into two backstabs, where any other race would only get 1 backstab. It enables you to not only haste yourself as you normally do, but also use the skill Peace of Mind before attacking twice as a ranger - where you'll benefit from both the +10% damage and increased primary attributes.
Even strength warfare characters would want to be an elf - the 10% damage and 1 ap Is just that valuable - especially when considering the Enrage/Adrenaline/Warlord build.

So you'd think that since elves have the "best" offensive racial they would be lacking in utility, but that is not the case.
While other races have trivial stuff like +1 to bartering or sneaking, elves have something much better.

Corpse eater
While I do believe corpse eater does little for offense focused builds that doesn't want to invest in memory - It Is simply amazing for utility focused characters.
Take an enchanter for example, you can get First Aid and Fortify without investing a point in geomancy or huntsman, coupled with one point in summoning for the heal, you get a ton of utility and healing with minimal point investment.
Other skills you can get from corpse eater (so far) are: Arctic armor, Levitate and even Peace of Mind. Thats essentially 5 skill points worth of requirements skipped over. Compared to +1 in bartering or persuasion, this is huge.

The negatives of elves is simply that only one character per game can get these skills from corpse eater, however, you'd likely not have several elves filling the same role, so some of the skills could be shared easily, or just given to a support elf, as the other may be doing a damage focused build and use all the AP it can to snowball with Warlord or simply take out a key target.

The scaling constitution debuff is something to consider - but usually only on rogues or warriors - as rangers are relatively safe. And even when used in the hands of rogues or warriors, If you can kill a target (Or simply use the one extra AP to CC via things like Battering Ram or Chloroform) you've prevented more than the constitution would have been worth.

The Human racial is nice, and something you'd want to have in your party - around 1-2 Humans fit nicely to have more uptime, though the AP cost can make offensive builds feel It is less fitting, as you'd rather have another character spend resources on buffs. This coupled with the +2 Wits giving more Initiative so you can buff allies before they deal damage - humans stands as a good supportive race (or ranger, but again not compared to elf), though they won't have the "free" skills that comes with elves that add more utility with minimal cost.

Dwarves are hard to place. They have strength and that is nice, their racial active ability is interesting, It can be used as CC or defensively to remove debuffs and give an ally physical armor. Though, when It is used either way, you feel like you work against your team just a little bit, - much more than any elf using flesh sacrifice would - as you'd either petrify your teammate or give the target you CC physical armor.

Lizards feels fine. Intelligence and having a fire surface makes them seem like perfect mages or intelligence based combo characters using said surface. Lizard, In its own niche, I feel competes more easily to Elf, though having 10% damage (which is what the +2 intelligence gives to lizards) they do have the +1 AP and access to more utility skills if they choose.

Elves simply feel good no matter what, while other races are more specialized. Specialized races feel fine, until you see that elves simply can do it all.

Something to consider would be to give other races a passive racial "on par" with Corpse eater, as Spellsong, Dwarven Guile and Thrifty feel nice thematically, they do however, not feel unique or interesting in gameplay. What if Spellsong was a version of stench from Divinity: Original sin 1? which made enemies less likely to attack you? Would fit nice for a mage. (though less so red prince, but you do choose yourself what role he fills). Humans could have something along the lines of an extra ability or attribute point. While dwarves could have the opposite of stench, bringing them into a role of tank. Just something that would make a person feel "That is interesting!" over "Oh, this'll be the civil ability I'll use." Something to make you consider different roles or builds. Something other than +2 in a stat and an ability to adapt into your character.

I do not know the best solutions, and I really resonate with the elf fantasy of eating corpses and having a "flesh sacrifice" ability. They feel thematically fitting, but in gameplay they do not exactly fit next to each other. This is more of a small grievance I have with the game's racial fantasy.

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Originally Posted by MoltenMuffin
I get the feeling of being in a disadvantage when I try other races.


^^ This

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When making Elf Mages,I feel that the +2 Finesse is truly op for them because it enables them to use bows and crossbows,which I believe are superior to wands in terms of dps and usefullness.
Elf rangers are second only to human rangers in my eyes as I believe that being able to act faster than your opponent is a greater boon than a damage boost at early levels - you can't use if your oppoent went first and killed you first. What I find difficult to compare is Corpse Eater vs Encourage for human and elven rangers.

Also I never strugled with Dwarves but am imensly amused at how bad they are at stealing things with that +1 in sneaking - while the theme for them is nice,the execution is God awful,if Larian's intent is to portray the Dwarves as the best race to roll thief like classes.

Bows and crossbows have antisynergy with Petrifing Touch and daggers are completly inferior to all str based weapons. Dwarves make decent rangers despite these flaws, but the Guerrila talent is mandatory for them to get the most advantage out of that +1 in sneaking.

The +2 in Str is the reason why I love dwarven rangers - they are only viable race for a Warfare/Huntsman hibrid at low levels - they can be made to be consistent at shreding physical armor despite not having access to height advantage.

I do believe that dwarves are a good race despite these flaws...it makes you struggle and chose on which racial you want to take advantage of when building their skill set and there are paths to which Dwarven Guile and Petrifing Touch can be active parts within your class, but always at the cost of having bought the Guerrila talent.

I strongly believe however that lizzards are inferior to elves and humans as pure mages...that bonus in +2 int for a pure breed mage isn't worth the hassle at low levels and at higher levels the stats of human and pure mages are so similar that the only difference boils down to Breath of Fire vs Encourage.

As battlemages however, lizzards are supperior to dwarves and elves because they don't need to invest points in Pyromancy to interact with oil and poison surfaces - all they need are points in Aerothurge to buff the damage they do vs magical armors and let the burning surface do the rest.

What I love the most about lizzards is their viability as rogues - they are the best at stealing stuff due to Spellsong and the +1 in Thievery you get from the Rogue preset and can easily be converted into shadowblades/ninjas due to their racial +2 in Int.

Humans are the best for any role except that of a battlemage because at early levels,unless going for points in Polymorph, this role can a put great strain on a human's attributes as they are spread to thin to be any good at low levels.

Damage boosts at low levels are pointless if you die first in an encounter, this is why I would never encourage pure lizzard mages, pure elven rangers and possibly pure knight and fighter dwarves - having your turn before your opponent greatly increases the odds of a party wipe.


Edit:Also could we change the name of a toppic to "A review of all racials" as I feel that the disscusion on this thread will not be limited to elves anymore.


Last edited by Draco359; 16/05/17 01:36 AM.
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Uh, the Guerrilla Talent is never mandatory for any build for any reason because it is a godawful steaming pile of crap. But yeah, Dwarves should get a different bonus than Sneak. Maybe once Crafting is in, +1 Crafting.

Lizard's racial skill is unimpressive. It can effectively be replaced with a lit candle, and worse, it is the only skill which requires specializing in one specific ability to be useful. I will continue to promote the idea that Fire Breath should be moved to Pyromancy and the Lizard Racial skill should be Shed Skin to let you remove status effects in exchange for a temporary penalty.

Human's Encourage should scale with levels, and the bug which allows people other than the caster to be targeted should be fixed.

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I never said Guerrila was good....just something you have to pick to make the most out of your bonus to stealth since backstabber is the weaker alternative.

I hope they don't take away the +1 in Sneaking as having dwarves be good at sneaking provides a more interesting flavour than the stereotipical bs of "dwarves are good crafters because they live under earth in huge cities".

Also I believe that the lizzard's racial scales in damage with both Intelect and ranks in Aero (the more points in aero the more magic armor it burns away) and I will always admire the racial skills for it's utility, not raw damage.

Also human's encourage should target all friendlies but not self...I believe the bug is the fact that encourage targets the caster,because realisticaly speaking you can't pat yourself on the back and automaticaly feel encouraged.

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For the record, I agree with the OP that it's not that Elves are overpowered, but more like their skill and passives outshine the other races, and it would be nice if the other races got a little love.


Originally Posted by Draco359
I never said Guerrila was good....just something you have to pick to make the most out of your bonus to stealth since backstabber is the weaker alternative.

I hope they don't take away the +1 in Sneaking as having dwarves be good at sneaking provides a more interesting flavour than the stereotipical bs of "dwarves are good crafters because they live under earth in huge cities".


The +1 Sneak is both free and permanent. You're stuck with it as a Dwarf and can't choose other things. In my opinion, I don't think that it makes a great deal of sense to spend a non-free Talent point onto a subpar Talent to take advantage of a free Ability point.

Since you don't want to take Back-Stabber, that suggests that you want to use Guerrilla with a warrior. There are many better Talents for a warrior. It also suggests that you otherwise wouldn't use Guerrilla, so you are trying to find a way to make use of the otherwise useless Sneak. Speaking for myself only, I consider Sneak a sunk cost when I play as a non-sneaky Dwarf.

The conflicting bonus between +Strength and +Sneak is the main reason why I want one of those changed. It's not merely about the stereotype of Dwarves being craftsmen, although they do indeed have a fancy underground city in-universe. (And it's not like the stereotype of Dwarves being short is flattering either.)


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Also I believe that the lizzard's racial scales in damage with both Intelect and ranks in Aero (the more points in aero the more magic armor it burns away) and I will always admire the racial skills for it's utility, not raw damage.


I've been specifically told that Fire Breath scales with level and Pyro, but not INT.

I also agree that racial skills should be good for utility, which is precisely the reason why I want Shed Skin instead of Fire Breath, because Shed Skin would be something which could not be duplicated with a candle or scroll of fireball AND it would be just as useful if you did not put points into Pyro, encouraging Lizards to branch out to non-fire-mage archtypes.


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Also human's encourage should target all friendlies but not self...I believe the bug is the fact that encourage targets the caster,because realisticaly speaking you can't pat yourself on the back and automaticaly feel encouraged.


I mean that Encourage only works in a radius around the caster, which is fine, but you can target other allies with it, implying that it it could work in a radius around the target, which it does not. So I want that changed so Encourage can only target the caster.

People already complain that Leadership does not work on the one using it. But I actually disagree with you it should not affect the caster for more than just gameplay reasons. Morale is a shared thing, if everyone else is pumped up, you get pumped up too. So I don't think it's a problem for it to affect the caster.

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I would use Guerrila on a dwarf ranger, str based thief/robber or skirmisher (warfare-huntsman hibrid) but I have yet to test and see if Guerrila works with casting spells.

For a regular warrior,yes,there are better talents, but for a marauder/thug type class (a thief that uses brute strenght instead of finesse for the purpose of dealing damage) things are very different. Also hiting people from stealth with a two hander is so much fun to see and execute....make's my day.


Last edited by Draco359; 16/05/17 03:05 PM.
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The problem isn't so bad if you re-balance Encourage and the Fire Breath to scale better (though I am a HUGE fan of the Shed Skin idea. It makes sense on every level). Metamorph, for me, is a great racial skill. I've observed that most people think it's average, but in my opinion, that extra CC is just fantastic.

Corpse Eater is just too good in comparison to the other racial talents though...I agree with that 100%


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I've gotten too used to acquiring first aid from corpse eater to want it to go :< but the regeration aspect from the talent is insane considering how many corpses are lying around. Only ways i see the talent getting nerfed are removing the regeneration, remove the skills from it or make alot of the viscera just visual and make it rare. The last one interferes with atmosphere and set pieces but is the most logical considering i've come close to having full inventories of the stuff.


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I didn't realize until this morning that consuming flesh heals you for a LARGE amount for three turns. It didn't used to be that good, I'm sure it wasn't that good a few patches ago. It heals slightly less than 50% health each turn for three turns at levels 1 and 2 and slightly more than 50% health at level 3+. That is better than all other forms of healing! Not to mention there are lots of body bits around, especially in Flenserville. That's a lot more plentiful than the Penny Bun Mushrooms which everyone else has to use, and that's ignoring that you need TWO of those AND two empty potion flasks to make a 50% potion.

As if Corpse Eater wasn't good enough already?! It didn't need a further buff.

Frankly, it is really ridiculous how good Elves are compared to all other races. The other races really need buffs.

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Bit of a necro post, sorry.

Corpse eater makes build choices silly if you could say get adrenaline/first aid without having to invest in that attribute. It isn't just saving a skill book purchase/theft, it's saving you an attribute point that can be placed somewhere else. This is broken to me and if more corpse eater abilities show up with further acts the number of optimal builds utilizing elves would beat out the other races easily.

With that said, despite any feelings towards corpse eaters balance I do think it needs to either be reworked or replaced because it's wasted healing and skills to not take at least one elf in a group and multiple elves start clashing due to them both wanting to eat the flesh. Perhaps it would be interesting to strip the consumption component and allow it to act more like a book to be read by elves and then only allowing the use of abilities if you meet the normal requirements to learn them.

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I dislike all the +2str/fin/int racials.
And since elven society is reliant on their memory and remembering other via eating them wouldnt it make more sense that they have +2 memory instead?
Then again I think that would be a buff to tweak out random ability gains from limbs plus everyone benefits from memory just like wits -unless you want to act last (which tactics I havent tried yet)- and felsh sacrifice outshines the others

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In the end, elves and now undead pretty much have the absolute best racial capabilities. Nothing the other races have can compare to getting free skills from eating things, among other bonuses. Disappointed lizards still as of today's stream have the awful fire breath, instead of something that matches the flavor of their race better by being a physical/body related skill given that they allegedly pride themselves on better breeding/physical improvement.

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Can the undead shapeshift into an elf.. eat an item to gain the skill?

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It's in the video. Yes


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