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Originally Posted by Lar
You're seeing the development process live with early access so inconsistencies happen as a result of the creative process which involves a lot of iteration. They are indeed not supposed to be treated as prisoners at that stage - though for all practical purposes they are. In subsequent updates you shouldn't find the word prisoner anymore.

As for the weapons - we are still debating that. We know it is an inconsistency but it breaks the tutorial flow if we get you to the equipment screen too fast.


The thing is, my character and everyone else actually are treated like prisoners and abductees.

Lohse (havent tried others yet) wakes up being shackled to a slab and some experimental instruments. (A skull is the first thing you see, eh?) And the rest of the opening situation clearly shows you have been taken by force and kept by force. Even if you can walk around - its a ship so you have nowhere to go anyway. You are under complete control of Magister in such a situation.

Its the situation that makes one a prisoner, not a word.

Just removing the word prisoners may seem like an easy fix, but it wont make the situation any different. And it can be said its a pretty cheap trick, even though you probably wont have that many people complaining.

Depends if you want to rely only on such consumers of your game or you want to make it better anyway, for your own and story-game sake. Those wont complain if its better either.

If you would want to do it differently and preserve the severity and atmosphere of situation there is an easy way to do it. Just let everyone wake up without weapons and wander like that around that first level of the ship.

After Wandigo blows everything up there are three dead magisters right there in that room who can have some basic weapons on them, several more dead Magister bodies in the rest of the hold, and all those on the next level up, plus some containers. Thats plenty of places where you can put every basic kind of weapon so any build can find whats good for them.

I almost overburdened myself with different items i picked up through tutorial (i looted everything that was not nailed down) so why not have a few basic, cheapest weapons among them too.

That way you keep the severity of situation as it is, as it should be, which strengthens the story internal coherence and atmosphere of the introduction without any crude removal of words or any problems with the flow of tutorial.

If the aim is to not show inventory and equipment too fast... thats a good way to do it. Otherwise i dont understand what that sentence at the end of the reply means.

Its often said how games in general have bad stories and how they can never be like books and blah, blah, blah.
It is because other matters take precedence over internal coherence of the story, like tutorial flow, or some mechanics or specific schlock moment instead of the story basics dictating such gameplay features in specific places where it would be expected and reasonable. Which would then all flow together much better. IF the story is good, of course, which this one seems to be.

This atleast is one example where an easy solution is possible.

I wish that the whole "against our will" forced imprisonment - abduction was also presented more strongly in fort Joy, as i said before in a few posts. That can be done without any drastic changes too. Basically: remove most weapons, spell books and armor from traders. Have them trade in cheapest items only and crafting materials, but give better equipment through small sub quests or tasks you do for NPCs and magisters there. It would strengthen the opening act of the game and make the flow of advancement through the story and gameplay more synchronous.

Also, when you get to the Fort Joy one of the magisters can tell you they will let you carry basic weapons around in a way which makes it clear they are not worried about that because they are so much stronger and better equipped.
That would make that whole schtick a little bit better or plausible.

Anyway,

I like the new intro into the story a lot. Very well done.
It leaves a strong impression, established a certain atmosphere and introduces the story very well.
Havent noticed anything especially bad or any bugs with it.

I would like to get this garlic, if you dont mind:
[Linked Image]
I like garlic... and its just hanging there...

And you can make this room a small armory, just lock both doors, make them impossible to lockpick that early or bash from the side where Ifan and a Magister are (make magisters turn hostile and kill you) and put the key to it on the body of some dead magister after Wandigo kills them, so the players can find weapons there only after that event plays out. Maybe a basic helmet or something similar too. A good moment to show equipping tutorial too.

The body of the captain on deck should have at least one better item on it, because when i get there its surrounded by fire which requires some kind of effort to get to it - so it should have little something as reward. From three-four times i tried only once there was something there... and i think it was a lemon. Cmann, im going through fire to get it.
And its a capn. They are supposed to be rich buggers.

- I like that there is a few situation with some reactivity and options.

- I like how the companions are introduced.

- Im not sure about reaching the escape boat and then getting the choice of going back down to get the rest of the team... especially because it doesnt seem to have any big consequence but is simply cosmetic.

And if i do get down and rescue them - i get knocked out just before getting into the escape boat? (which has no consequence) But if i choose to escape then there is no problem? Seems a bit hamfisted for no good reason.
Especially with the Kraken right there watching all that.

- Btw, congratulations for design of the the Kraken. Finally not some overblown octopus or a squid. Whoever did it it was a very good idea to add some deep ocean fish features to it. Very fitting.

Maybe instead make it necessary to get back and rescue everyone sooner, just before you get to the upper deck so when everyone gets up to the deck then you have one more fight with much more voidwoken spawning all around and you escape under fire, while everything falls apart around you.

Then everything just falls apart as you all jump into the escape boat and you wake up on the beach. (Kraken pulls the whole ship under and so doesnt waste time on you and the other survivors)

- I think i figured out the black cat.

- Very nice to see that resurrection spells now have a very limited range. At least some balance for such super power.

- Very nice to see we can now craft many items together. I would add at least one or two recipe books to the tutorial on the boat and make sure traders have some in fort Joy and few more can be found early around the fort. Have them as reward from NPCs too for doing stuff for them. Or just talking to them and being nice or whatever.

- When i get Ifan and Red Prince and tell them i want them to be a warrior and a ranger specifically they still start as hybrid builds. Red prince gets a point in warfare and geomancy, Ifan in Hunter and piromancy. I like that setup for Ifan but not for Red Prince.

I havent checked if i can choose specific hybrid builds that way, but it would be nice.

- In that fight Ifan also tends to use "marked shot" (or something similar... cant remember right now) skill and usually he also hits one of the other peaceful NPCs around there, which makes everyone turn hostile so then him and Eloise start slaughtering the whole camp. Might wanna change that into some other skill.

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I think what Swen meant, Hiver, was that the Magisters dialogue is going to try to remove the word prisoners. I almost asked him "WTF?" myself, until I caught the "though for all practical purposes they are [prisoners]" part. I don't think Swen was trying to say "no the Sourcerors are not prisoners and if you players think they are you are mistaken", I think he meant that the Magisters are trying to convince the prisoners that they are not prisoners by avoiding using that word.


I also agree that the prisoners ship has an annoying amount of lootable junk. I picked up about 50, FIFTY junk items. That's about half a level 1 spellbook, worth enough that I feel I need to pick it all up. I'd honestly prefer if all that stuff was worth 0 gold so there was no point spending all that time picking it up. It hurts the pacing of the tutorial, but the gold is worth it especially if I have someone on my team with Geo and the Contamination spell I NEED TO REPLACE for being worthless garbage.


I can't say that I agree with removing items from prison merchants though. I understand that it's not especially immersive either, but removing items would be extremely impractical for fun gameplay. It would make the early game quite tedious. They would have to add a LOT of extra sidequests and stuff to compensate, and I'm not sure that would work well because you can only do a quest once. I can't really see that being an effective substitute for the 3-4 levels of equipment upgrading you need just to get out of the prison.

I agree, the Captain has nothing good on the body, and it should have something. Maybe add that extra 50 gold after you make all the dishes and such worth 0 gold.


I also kinda agree that the "HEY YOU SHOULD REALLY GO BACK TO RESCUE THE PRISONERS" bit is a bit hamfisted, largely because that is the first thing I tried to do after Wendigo killed everyone. Everyone there was non-responsive. So when I got on deck, I did the logical thing and said "screw everyone, let's just go". The game thinks that was wrong.

I think like it would be better is that after Wendigo goes nuts, the way back to the previous room is totally blocked by flaming debris and you cannot go back. That would make it the "Go back for the other prisoners" bit feel better and more reasonable.


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- Very nice to see that resurrection spells now have a very limited range. At least some balance for such super power.


I just checked this, and the range still seems pretty decent, but if you like it too, great.


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- Very nice to see we can now craft many items together. I would add at least one or two recipe books to the tutorial on the boat and make sure traders have some in fort Joy and few more can be found early around the fort. Have them as reward from NPCs too for doing stuff for them. Or just talking to them and being nice or whatever.


Good idea.

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- When i get Ifan and Red Prince and tell them i want them to be a warrior and a ranger specifically they still start as hybrid builds. Red prince gets a point in warfare and geomancy, Ifan in Hunter and piromancy. I like that setup for Ifan but not for Red Prince.


That's how the preset builds are set up. Pyromancer on the Ranger is only for haste apparently. I don't really know what the designer was thinking giving Contamination to the Fighter who will be standing in the enemy's blood or their own most of the time. Fortify does make sense for the tanking of damage, but they should get another Warfare skill instead of Contamination.

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I think what Swen meant, Hiver, was that the Magisters dialogue is going to try to remove the word prisoners. I almost asked him "WTF?" myself, until I caught the "though for all practical purposes they are [prisoners]" part. I don't think Swen was trying to say "no the Sourcerors are not prisoners and if you players think they are you are mistaken", I think he meant that the Magisters are trying to convince the prisoners that they are not prisoners by avoiding using that word.


I think i got it right.
The discussion was about whether our guys should have weapons that early, considering the situation. And as he himself says the situation is they are prisoners.

So in that sense, im agreeing with anyone who said the "prisoners" who are actually prisoners should not have any weapons right there at the start regardless if anyone calls them prisoners or not.
Even if magisters would try to pretend they are not prisoners - which is pretty silly considering the situation being colared like a dog and everything - they would still not leave weapons on everyone. Because nobody is there voluntarily. It just looks... silly. And its not actually necessary for any reason at all.

Btw, if players dont get weapons, that would make starting the game with high stealing and lockpicking skills feel very rewarding right away.


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I can't say that I agree with removing items from prison merchants though. I understand that it's not especially immersive either, but removing items would be extremely impractical for fun gameplay. It would make the early game quite tedious. They would have to add a LOT of extra sidequests and stuff to compensate,


I dont think so, because its not about removing the items - but moving them someplace else. They can just use the NPCs and magisters that are there already and maybe add just a few smaller subquests which will also serve to better present characters that are there, the situation or the overall plot.

I mean, if i was doing it i would do a few more additional things to increase the sense of that starting vulnerability of imprisonment and lack of any "normal world" commodities, but i know that would be too much for Larian so im not even going to mention those.

Considering there are several easy ways out of the fort that you can find really quickly - players wont really be stuck inside the fort that long anyway.

So in a few smaller subquests (those void turtles, aligators, the whatshisname... that zombified yarrow guy, Mago...Migo... the elves in the cave, to name a few) you can place just enough of better items to go through the fort and escape (plus you get the xp for doing them and so level up) and then you can dose better items through first encounters in the forest. And then better ones as you explore further. As usual rpg progression goes. You dont need well stocked traders in a prison - on an isolated - concentration camp - black magic ruins infested with monsters - island.

All im saying is that it can be done, its not anything complicated or demanding any big changes.
I dont think they will do it, but... im just sayin it would be nice and it would fit with the whole story. The better and more believable the sense of " a prison" - the better feeling of accomplishment players get for escaping, or sneaking through and looting and whatnot.

And opposite of that for reverse.


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I agree, the Captain has nothing good on the body, and it should have something. Maybe add that extra 50 gold after you make all the dishes and such worth 0 gold.

Yeah, something. Doesnt need to be anything epic. A weapon, maybe a piece of equipment, some gold, maybe a recipe book with some specific funny recipe... not just a lemon.

btw, sometimes when i get close there would be some kind of explosion and fire surface would spread over the stairs too, sometimes it wouldnt happen. Fire tends to disappear quickly, possibly because of rain - so if they would add a few items more to the capn, they could make that surface last longer (add oil or something so it doesnt disapear after five seconds) or maybe be some other kind (poison, oil burning) so it can serve as a small additional tutorial on how to handle surfaces.


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I also kinda agree that the "HEY YOU SHOULD REALLY GO BACK TO RESCUE THE PRISONERS" bit is a bit hamfisted, largely because that is the first thing I tried to do after Wendigo killed everyone. Everyone there was non-responsive. So when I got on deck, I did the logical thing and said "screw everyone, let's just go". The game thinks that was wrong.


The game may think its bad, but there is just a cosmetic difference in dialogues when you get back, as far as ive seen. Everyone survives anyway and they still join with you.

i would also like to save those kids, Larian. At least some of them.

True, you naturally try to revive everyone just after wendigo situation, but you just cant - because. (because you need to run into that choice later on)
Which makes that later pushing to return back a bit counterintuitive and not organic but obviously forced.

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I think like it would be better is that after Wendigo goes nuts, the way back to the previous room is totally blocked by flaming debris and you cannot go back. That would make it the "Go back for the other prisoners" bit feel better and more reasonable.

That and maybe there would be some actual need, some obstacle you can solve only with everyone being there so you have an actual plausible reason for returning down.

It could be maybe a bunch of voidwoken on deck or maybe just some debris and you get a hint "if i get more people to help i could go through this."

Maybe the escape boat was thrown onto the deck and you certainly cannot lift it alone, for example.

I cant say i liked that we are lowering the boat right infront of the Kraken jaws there so if that whole thing is changed that would not be necessary.

It would be cool if it would instead lift up (as it does if you go back) and start pulling the whole ship under, breaking it, and you all need to jump into the escape boat that is on the deck - thinking it will float after the big ship is destroyed, (one of the NPCs or companions yells "quick, jump into the escape boat!!") but the whole storm and the ship breaking just toss you all around... and you wake up on the beach.

Doesnt need to be all animated either. Just two nice illustrations as the game loads the island would be enough.

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I just checked this, and the range still seems pretty decent, but if you like it too, great.

Wait! Then it may have been a bug. Damn it.
I have to try again but when i played it had a range of just a couple of meters around the caster, so you had to come really close to the body of someone to actually resurrect them.

If this isnt in i suggest its made so!
Yeah i know, crybabies will cry about it. But look, we now get xp even if we are dead unlike before, and its really a huge advantage over enemies anyway, (only a few special high level ones use it) so it wouldn't hurt if at least the range was constrained.

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That's how the preset builds are set up. Pyromancer on the Ranger is only for haste apparently. I don't really know what the designer was thinking giving Contamination to the Fighter who will be standing in the enemy's blood or their own most of the time. Fortify does make sense for the tanking of damage, but they should get another Warfare skill instead of Contamination.

In Ifans case its not the preset, because when you meet him he is a wayfarer. But when i tell him to change into full ranger he still gets second skill.

I dont mind it that much, its a good combination really, and i usually play hybrids but i guess the ... new players might be confused poor little delicate flowers they are.

I dont find much use for that contamination skill with Red Prince either. Since he already has that flaming dragon spell as his personal skill, a secondary skill point in pyromancy would be a better fit as a starting mix of skills then Geo for him as a character.

As it is you can get both him and Ifan with secondary geo skills by default. Not that fun or imaginative.


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Just s short one to clarify a few things.

Resurrection isnt bugged, i was just blinded, literally. Didnt notice one character still had it on as we were being wiped out. It looked a bit too extreme generally, but i liked it... nevermind, ill just remove the resurrection completely by some mod, eventually.

Nice that you reference it in the context of the story at least a little bit, in the letter the assassin had on him.
You could maybe add occasionally that it hurts a lot, maybe? So at least it would look like there is some price for it. Not a huge deal, just one of those loose ends i notice.

And its Elodi who goes an killing sprees because of Ifans "marksman fang" shot during the shakedown fight. Elo-di, not Eloise, darnit.


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Rework:
Sorry had to rework, due i hadn't much time in the Morning so it wasn't perfect.

In my honest Opinion, and thats how i experienced Divinity Original Sin 2, is that there isn't the clearly "black" & "white" shema... so the question are you an prisoner or not, but moreover how you as Player feel. I mean if i look how Magister-Act, for me this isn't the classical Prison-Guard "we keep on eye on the Bad Guys" but moreover the normale Police, which try to enforce the Law. I mean we know that, if you look at how Drugs are handled, laws aren't only meant to secure other Peoples of the Society, but also to keep the People safe who get addicted to Drugs.

In an similiar way this Message is also told by Divinity Original Sin. Of course there are Magister which think differently, but overall i don't get the feeling, they think the Sourcerers are "the bad guys" which "should be kept watched/imprisoned". Like Criminals or such. Moreover the Sourcerers are "(normal) People, who happe to have an Power, which is dangerous". Let's say, if someone have an disease where he acts agressively - you don't blame the Person, you blame the disease and you look to cure that. I would claim this is an similiar way at the Sourcerer. It's the Source itself, which is problematic, which they want to seal or cure. Its not about the People itself.

And in this way, it makes sense for them, to let the "Prisoner" keep/make their society, with own Trading and such. To let them wander in the Island off(atleast a bit) and so on. Because they don't fear the Prisoner itself, they fear the Source, and as long the Source is muted/sealed, there is no Problem if they carry Weapons and such. That's why they shouldn't change that, because i find it makes sense, and it also adds more depth to the Story, because it let you think about it, are you "truly" an Prisoner, like an "Criminal"? However, if sourcerers wouldn't be muted and kept on an Island, and freely use their Source, even for the greater good, would it still be okay, if you draw(even without purpose) the Voidwoken which kills people and makes chaos. It goes a bit philosophic.... is this imprisoment an "sacrifice" for the greater "good". However, if they would make it like the classical Prisoner Theme, where you actually REALLY are handled as Criminals, it would kill this Questions and this depth, philosophic aspect... and that in my opinion, would make the Game suffer...

I mean maybe i'm wrong, and Larian really intend to have this thight classic Prisoner Topic where you are the bad guy who was thrown into an Prison. However i don't believe that, and i think the Reason why you people think like Sourcerer are the Bad guys in the eyes of the Magister, is because of the first Game, where the Sourcerer actually REALLY was the Bad Guys. If you ask me, if people will get rid of this concept, because i mean this are more than 1000 years when DOS1 happened, lot of thinks can change over time, than you get also rid of this expectations of - "Sourcerer are really bad so imprisoned due the like Criminals and such".


HOWEVER, i don't mind if they would change that Aspect on the Ship-Scene. I still highly disagree with Stabbey, that it makes sense for them to take away the Weapons, because of the possibility to take over the Ship, because i still count that as for zero-possibility as long the Source is sealed. However i find it inconvinient - to strip off everything the sourcerer have, to put them on the Collar, and than give them back the Weapons while they travel. So i guess they really could Confiscated their Items, with the intention to give them back, when they on island(due that the ships sinks, its not possible anymore), and make it so the People can decide for themself, they strip off the Items due they fear the danger some might rebel and take over the ship, or its more convinient to travel like this...


Last edited by LightningYu; 30/05/17 12:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by LightningYu
Rework:
Sorry had to rework, due i hadn't much time in the Morning so it wasn't perfect.

In my honest Opinion, and thats how i experienced Divinity Original Sin 2, is that there isn't the clearly "black" & "white" shema... so the question are you an prisoner or not, but moreover how you as Player feel. I mean if i look how Magister-Act, for me this isn't the classical Prison-Guard "we keep on eye on the Bad Guys" but moreover the normale Police, which try to enforce the Law. I mean we know that, if you look at how Drugs are handled, laws aren't only meant to secure other Peoples of the Society, but also to keep the People safe who get addicted to Drugs.


The "law" in this case says that "if you are a Sourceror, it is a crime for you to be free." Laws are not always just.


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In an similiar way this Message is also told by Divinity Original Sin. Of course there are Magister which think differently, but overall i don't get the feeling, they think the Sourcerers are "the bad guys" which "should be kept watched/imprisoned". Like Criminals or such. Moreover the Sourcerers are "(normal) People, who happe to have an Power, which is dangerous". Let's say, if someone have an disease where he acts agressively - you don't blame the Person, you blame the disease and you look to cure that. I would claim this is an similiar way at the Sourcerer. It's the Source itself, which is problematic, which they want to seal or cure. Its not about the People itself.


And if all Fort Joy was was a place to keep the Sourcerors locked up and safe, you might have a point. But it isn't.

The argument that the Magisters are just trying to help and keep the Sourcerors sealed and locked away for the greater good fails once you actually see what they're doing inside Fort Joy. They are brutally torturing and murdering people, converting them into weapons which literally attack using the power of their depthless agony and pain.

What the Magisters are doing is also forbidden, since Paladin Cork of the Divine Order says it is not allowed to mistreat prisoners.

This is not a "cause a little pain for the greater good", this is deliberate, malicious evil.


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And in this way, it makes sense for them, to let the "Prisoner" keep/make their society, with own Trading and such. To let them wander in the Island off(atleast a bit) and so on. Because they don't fear the Prisoner itself, they fear the Source, and as long the Source is muted/sealed, there is no Problem if they carry Weapons and such.


On the island, maybe. The island is a dangerous hellhole not easily escaped. The ship transporting prisoners to the island is not a secure location.


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I mean maybe i'm wrong, and Larian really intend to have this thight classic Prisoner Topic where you are the bad guy who was thrown into an Prison. However i don't believe that, and i think the Reason why you people think like Sourcerer are the Bad guys in the eyes of the Magister, is because of the first Game, where the Sourcerer actually REALLY was the Bad Guys.


I don't believe one single person is suggesting that all the Sourcerors are supposed to be portrayed as evil convicted criminals.

In the eyes of Magisters, Sourcerors are dangerous people they need to keep locked away from everyone else. If it is dangerous to let them roam the world free, it is dangerous to let them walk around the ship taking them to prison carrying weapons because of the potential for rebellion.


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HOWEVER, i don't mind if they would change that Aspect on the Ship-Scene. I still highly disagree with Stabbey, that it makes sense for them to take away the Weapons, because of the possibility to take over the Ship, because i still count that as for zero-possibility as long the Source is sealed.


Challenge accepted:

http://steamcommunity.com/id/stabbey_the_clown/screenshot/784036741393299121

Everyone was Source-muted, obviously. I just attacked a guard, completely unprovoked and every other prisoner joined in immediately. No prisoners died, 3 Magisters and a Source Hound dead, and I could easily do the same to the other 4 Magisters on the floor as well. If none of the prisoners had weapons, that fight would not have gone in my favour so easily.

Armed prisoners seem to be a credible threat to the Magisters and the Magisters' goal of transporting the prisoners to Fort Joy.

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Armed prisoners are a threat in Fort Joy for the same reasons.
One single button equp-uneqip weapons would nicely sidestep that. And less items sold by "traders".

By the way, doesnt all magic come from the source in the setting? I seem to remember something about it from the previous game.

Otherwise, ill stay out of this argument because i said my piece about it and arguments to the contrary dont make any sense, so i have nothing more sensible to say about that.

I wanted to add i like the new companion dialogues. Because they are character driven and nicely written to support that. The answers and replies are not easy and obvious and thats good. It seems like Ifan is a bit too friendly and trusting though, but i guess the writers wanted to have someone who is not complicated or a psycho like Red prince and Sabille. Still... it wouldn't hurt to make him a bit tougher or rugged, all business, forced to cooperate due to the situation, he is a "lone wolf" after all and all that jazz. Just something to make him a bit deeper. I like the Red Prince dialogues a lot, very fitting for his characterization which is very nicely done. And if the goal was to make Sabille a complete psycho - goals achieved.


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@Stabbey:
1. Thats actually the Philospical Question. Save 1, Sacrifice 1000 or Sacrifice 1 and Save 1000. I mean what would be the solution? To let them go wild and attract all Voidwoken who happens to kill lot of People and make Chaos?

2. Yeah, but in this case i've gotten the feeling, this was more the Higher-Ups who abuse their Power. The Lower ones, like the ones you transport you to fort joy, or who keeps an eye on you on the Ghetto really seem sincerly wants to help you. Of course there where also people like Siwan(was she called like that? I'm pretty bad with names) who was pretty sadistic and so on...

And even with that, it wouldn't contradict my point about - why should Magister fear the Prisoner. I mean when they go that far, - they don't seem to be really scared about the Prisoners anyway.

3.
That wasn't meant as an Challenge, nor intended to argue any further with you. I mean we both know, that in almos all Games, Story and so on, that Protagonists and their Companion are handled in an different way. That's why they're the Heroes. If Heroics would be an commonly things which could do everyday-normal-guy, than we wouldn't call that Heroics anymore, because everyone would everyday do something heroic. Heroism, even if this People some pretty normal and your everyday-type of People - they still are unique. And even if it's something simple like the Courage to do something in an difficult Situation. That's why i find it wrong to argument every time, when i mention the Ship: "Yeah i could slaughter the whole crew" because YOU - are the Hero, the Protagonist, the unique Character or the everyday-guy who surpass themself. You aren't the the Common aspect, you are the one who avert an zero possibilty to 100% Success(i mean even if you fail, you can reload the Game). If that wouldn't be the Case, nothing in this Game would happen. You would've died on the sinking ship, or thrown into the cell, or even further made to an Tool for the Magister.

I would accept your Argument, if we talk about the risk of common People to rebel even if it is unlikely...but let's say they want it extra-safe. Okay - i don't share your Opinion, but i get where you come from. However to use the Protagonist as example, i find pretty weak...

@Hiver:
Are you sure? I thought Source is quite different to normal Magic and not based off. Also if that would be the case, we shouldn't be even able to cast any spells.

This would be something, which i would love if someone from Larian could confirm so we know better...

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Dunno really. I just think i remember something about it from the previous game. Doesnt matter much because this game isnt going in that direction anyway.

If i was doing this game you wouldnt be able to cast any magic with collars on either. It would be a "Raw deal in fort Joy" for all of you.

And you would have to hide the weapons from Magisters or else.


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Originally Posted by LightningYu
@Stabbey:
1. Thats actually the Philospical Question. Save 1, Sacrifice 1000 or Sacrifice 1 and Save 1000. I mean what would be the solution? To let them go wild and attract all Voidwoken who happens to kill lot of People and make Chaos?


I already answered this.

"The argument that the Magisters are just trying to help and keep the Sourcerors sealed and locked away for the greater good fails once you actually see what they're doing inside Fort Joy. They are brutally torturing and murdering people, converting them into weapons which literally attack using the power of their depthless agony and pain."


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2. Yeah, but in this case i've gotten the feeling, this was more the Higher-Ups who abuse their Power. The Lower ones, like the ones you transport you to fort joy, or who keeps an eye on you on the Ghetto really seem sincerly wants to help you. Of course there where also people like Siwan(was she called like that? I'm pretty bad with names) who was pretty sadistic and so on...


A few rotten apples spoil the whole bushel. And as far as I can tell the bushel contains mostly rotten apples to start out with. The entire upper leadership of the Magisters is heartless and immoral. The lower ranks are the force which supports and gives the upper ranks their power.

Fort Joy has a gigantic torture room, and yet it has no places for the Magisters to sleep or prepare meals. I think that says it all for their priorities and belevolence.


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And even with that, it wouldn't contradict my point about - why should Magister fear the Prisoner. I mean when they go that far, - they don't seem to be really scared about the Prisoners anyway.


I showed you a screenshot of why the Magisters should fear the prisoners being armed. The "they're protagonists that doesn't count" argument is a meta argument. By that I mean it a Magister can't use to explain to a newbie Magister why prisoners have weapons.


Originally Posted by Hiver
Armed prisoners are a threat in Fort Joy for the same reasons.
One single button equp-uneqip weapons would nicely sidestep that. And less items sold by "traders".


I kinda agree that armed prisoners are a threat in Fort Joy, they are less of one. Even if a prisoner rebellion happens and the Sourcerors take over, the magisters can blockade the island with ships and let them starve to death.

So while letting prisoners walk around armed does hurt immersion, forcing them to equip-unequip constantly would be annoying and the effect of annoying the player would be worse than the immersion loss.

It's one of those little things which is done for more fun at the cost of immersion, just like all those shooters where you eject half-empty magazines, and somehow the ammo in those partial magazines gets consolidated back into full ones without the player ever stopping to do that manually.


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By the way, doesnt all magic come from the source in the setting? I seem to remember something about it from the previous game.


Actually, no, that has never been the case in any of the Divinity games, going right back to the first one where the Source was said to be getting weaker, but regular magic was fine.



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forcing them to equip-unequip constantly would be annoying and the effect of annoying the player would be worse than the immersion loss.

No worries, that was just what i would do, not a request.
It wouldnt be such a problem since there is only one guard walking around the camp anyway.


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Actually, no, that has never been the case in any of the Divinity games, going right back to the first one where the Source was said to be getting weaker, but regular magic was fine.

Meh, fine. (i asked that question already...)


Anyway, the Ai got to be really good. Some fights with magisters and better enemies are very interesting now. Even if im a level stronger then them.

It plays really nicely. Knives even nether-swapped Red Prince for one of the golems in the cage, so Red Prince ended up locked and surrounded by several silent monks who proceeded to prick him with spears from safe distance. That was fun.

I managed to win that fight with only one casualty.
Previously it was too easy.

The only small thing i noticed is that Silent Monks tend to cast Silence repeatedly even if my characters are already silenced. But since they are sort of zombified it fits. They also perform all the other moves they can so its not a big thing.

Fight with skellies in Withermore dungeon was pretty great. I had to work for it.

Fight with Orivand wasnt as easy as the last time either.

Much better. Its really nice seeing enemies use all those different abilities and behaving smarter.

I even got wiped out by Magisters in the harbor. up

Wandigo is not a trader anymore, great. One less.


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@LightningYu

Interesting ideas about the weapons on the ship. But I think they should cut it out. On the other hand it makes more sense in Fort Joy for me, where all the time a Sourcerer can be transformed into a Monster and then it would be good, if the prisoners can defend themselves with their lacking weaponry (being cannonfodder and all that).

Something else: is it just me or does Bishop Alexandars read a bit more remorseful than in the first version of the Alpha? It's just one ellipsia, but it makes a difference for me. And "Beast" reads like the smart guy of the group, if he can reckon how long it will take to Fort Joy.

Edit: As for the "Source is magic" - discussion: I think Source is the glue of creation and is in EVERYONE, while magic is something, that you can learn, like science.

But maybe it is something genetic, since the first Mages were children of the goddess of magic, if I remember it correctly. But maybe the first mages taught Rivellon magic? It was a long time ago, since I read that part of the lore.

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I'm wondering about Beast's whereabouts. Presumably he's is meant to be in Fort Joy somewhere: anybody know where I'm supposed to be able to find him?

I've started my second play-through since the new patch and after everyone gets off the ship he's nowhere to be found. I'm guessing it's just a simple case that he's not actually in the post-intro part of the game yet, but I do have an abnormally well-developed skill of not being able to find things...


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Originally Posted by vometia
I'm wondering about Beast's whereabouts. Presumably he's is meant to be in Fort Joy somewhere: anybody know where I'm supposed to be able to find him?

I've started my second play-through since the new patch and after everyone gets off the ship he's nowhere to be found. I'm guessing it's just a simple case that he's not actually in the post-intro part of the game yet, but I do have an abnormally well-developed skill of not being able to find things...


I was just about to post this as well lol.
Just finished a playthrough of the patch and couldn't find 'the Beast'. Is he definitely in? Has anyone found him yet?
Cheers.

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No, the Beast is nowhere to be found.
He may be the fifth companion-build maybe. We are short a dwarf. - badum tsshh.
Hard to see him as a undead though... but maybe he died while escaping? Maybe the Kraken got him!? That would be cool. An undead dwarf may just be in Larian style.

Besides that, where are those kids that manage to escape?
Why nobody wonders about them?

Come to think of it, when we play a custom build, can you find all the other companions and have to leave one out of the team?
There goes a new excuse to play again.

Ive just finished the alpha, first time i saw the extended areas and features. Its great. The whole deal with the ship is one of... no, the best such feature ive ever seen in any RPG i played and thats a big praise.

I like where the story is going. Its pretty great so far and a big improvement over previous game.
I played Sebille and Lohse and both are either really good or great from moment to moment. (i dont think Lohse should be a jocker-jester type of character though) - And im pretty sure playing as red prince will be great.

I have to congratulate the team on lizard design. Thats just perfect. And they are interesting as characters to play with.
Its not just a gimmick.

The Godwoken, the scenes in the otherworld, the tree of Gods... and then the escape with the ship - and that sail through other seas... that was really great. Now thats how you introduce a player stronghold, man.

I hope we will have opportunity to do that again in the full game, maybe even by choice at some other point in the story.

I also like that there is no bloody gamey "press this or click here" to advance some of the main story points. I hope they keep it that way. I came to the tree of Gods and i was searching for some kind of prompt to tell me what to do but there wasnt any. The solution is of course available through the very way the story is told before that. Similar thing with how you first get to the other world and talk to a god.
You can miss it, there is no - click here prompt for it. But the previous events give you strong hints on what you should do. I really hope nobody chickens out because "some players may miss it" and changes that.


To repeat, the enemy Ai is excellent. Some tweaks here and there and more balance of mechanics in general may be needed, but the way combat encounters play out is already excellent. Even despite some lackluster mechanics. The Ai itself is leaps and bounds ahead and better then any other ive ever seen.

I cant, and ive tried really hard, abuse choke points anymore. If i try to screw them over by positioning behind some door or narrow passage - they screw me over! Its beautiful. Even when they enter through those doors they position themselves so they are covered from ranged attacks. And a group of enemies play like a team, probably for the first time ever in any game.

Diversity of options, abilities, skills and magic spells and pretty great environmental design that lets those different abilities shine makes the combat gameplay really, really good.

Im pretty certain that the game will be a big success for Larian.


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The Beast is not in Fort Joy (just the tutorial section); he will show up when he is available as a playable character, at release.

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Hah, an undead dwarf.

Thats going to be pretty great, actually.

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Originally Posted by Hiver
I also like that there is no bloody gamey "press this or click here" to advance some of the main story points. I hope they keep it that way. I came to the tree of Gods and i was searching for some kind of prompt to tell me what to do but there wasnt any. The solution is of course available through the very way the story is told before that. Similar thing with how you first get to the other world and talk to a god.
You can miss it, there is no - click here prompt for it. But the previous events give you strong hints on what you should do. I really hope nobody chickens out because "some players may miss it" and changes that.

Yes, that was cool. I hope they keep it. Even though I can already forsee the influx of topics like: "I found the tree with gods and they don't talk to me. Must be a bug!" I had to actually think a few minutes what to do there because usually combat mechanics and the story are separated in games. At first I expected needing to talk to somebody/move to a certain area/pull some magic button there.

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It took me a moment to figure it out. Well it took me long enough to find where I needed to click for their dialogue, but the penny finally dropped when I realised what I needed to do.


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Heh, i also had to stop and think about it, took some running around thinking there must be something im missing, i even tried attacking the gods and those vines thinking maybe i need to cut them down or something.
Had a good laugh at myself when the infernal machine finally connected the dots.

Ive just gotten used to mass marketing games never even bothering with good design like this. Or any design that requires even simple basic obvious connection thinking.

See, this is what makes design great. When the story creates the mechanics and abilities you actually play with and those mechanics and abilities then influence and fuel or change the story. Thats perfection in game design.
Which is one more reason why the complete immunity armors stick me in the eye all the more.

And speaking of great visual and story based design of Lizards... the human faces visual design is really bad. Its like there is someone trying to make all the human faces look bad. There is barely three serviceable ones in character creation, both for males and females. And men are lucky to have beards available to hide those horrors.

Look, we have to play the whole game looking at those as portraits.
I dont need any beauty models but i dont need those gobs either. Or that crumpled old face. Or those bloated ones.

In the same regard, why are starting two talents locked even for custom builds?
Only one of them can be seen as a kind of racial trait, like corpse eating, fire breath of lizards or that dwarf guile thing so there is no need to force a second talent onto players.

It should be my business to make a character who has more finesse or intelligence or a pet pal talent, or any other. And it would be very - very nice if we could choose two talents in character creation especially because they are so rare later on.

I can see talents being forced onto the story characters, although humans being thrifty is pretty bad choice.
Even escapist would be better than that. But to have two talents already fixed for custom builds doesnt make any sense.

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