Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - Suggestions and Feedback Change the action point system back.

Having a larger AP pool and spells costing more AP allows you to more finely balance the AP cost of spells.

Divinity original sin 2 is unbearably unbalanced. Bless/curse cost 1ap and auto fix any environmental situation with no thinking required.

Rogue can clean up anything and everything and Adrenaline is busted with the current AP system.

Rather then building resist now you can just build magic Armour that blocks all statuses?

I love the first game, and i hope this game becomes just as great, and it's not all bad. But i feel this game has a bad case of trying to fix what's not broke resulting in some bad unnecessary changes.


Race for example was a good idea.

TLDR:
Old AP system is easier to balance.

AP system is fine, you can still do as many actions in a single turn as you did before. Some balancing can iron out any issues... and it wouldnt be that bad to have a few more AP points, but that some abilities cost two points or more APs instead of one. Which some abilities need to cost now anyway.

That doesnt have anything directly to do with the new complete immunity armors system.
Which distorts almost all other mechanics.

I'm not saying you can't do as many actions as the old game. I'm saying the game is currently an unbalanced mess.

The current AP system means changing a 1AP spell to 2AP is a major difference compared to if the max AP was double and spells costed twice as much, you could change it from 2 to 3.

The game is not an unbalanced mess.
Such overblown ridiculous proclamations wont achieve anything except make your comments ridiculous.

Some abilities now cost too little for big benefits they can do, like scoundrel backlash, but there is no need for any general doubling of APs, cost of otherwise.

The current system needs to be tweaked some more, thats all. Not scraped or entirely changed.
I think five base APs would be good, with some abilities that are now 1 point costing two.
Thats the kind of fine balancing the system needs. Not complete overhauls.

But none of that will change the effects armor system has on the gameplay, which is surprisingly good despite it. Not because of it.

It could be better.

i think i misread what you said, are you agreeing that the Armour system is bad or praising it.

I don't like that you can put on any piece of magic Armour and block all magic so it just becomes shoot spam them until the Armour wears off.

And what about the bless curse spells that auto fix all environment problems? rather then building your character to have tools for certain environmental problems you just have a 1 AP fix it all spell?

i liked having things like water balloons for fires as a specific example rather then never having to worry about any particular environment effects because you always have bless on hand.

I think the armor system is not good, its basically a immunity shield that works at full power even if you only have a single point in it. Its also tied to main attributes and leveling alone, which are the most important thing in the game at expense of everything else, but fortunately other mechanics make combat good despite that.

Bless certainly should cost more APs too. And have more limited use.
At least in combat you have to move over blessed surfaces to get the benefits, but that costs APs.
It does solve elemental surfaces a bit too easily.

I dont think you can curse or bless ice... so maybe we shouldn't be able to do that to fire either.

But none of that is a fault of the new AP mechanics.

I know i'm on the unpopular Opinion again, but if you ask me, the general idea of Armor-System is pretty good(and cool). It could help to fix the balancing issues the first one had, due how OP Magic was.

However, the real issue is still the overall balance, as well the mistake Larian did, to allow 100% Success for Spells after the Armor is drained. I mean, as soon the Armor is away, the Enemeys are pretty dead. Or your character fucked up. I mean if you choose once Glass-Canon - you see how problematic it is, the way Larian implement it. I tried many different ways, from let my Mage stay out of combat and join later - and so and so on, however once the Mage join the Combat, the overall Focus in Combat is to take my Mage out with Stun, Frozen and Burning. He is like an Tank, who can't take and take away one viable Character from the Combat. And i don't dislike the Concept of Glass Canon, that Status-Effects ignore Armor, its more the 100% Success which makes this Talent so useless. If 90% of the Fights, my Mage can't do anything due how everyone trys to stun, freeze and burn here, it makes you see what issues the Armor-System have. I wouldn't cut the Armor-System because i mentioned it often enough, its pretty cool. They simply have to Change how the Succes-rate Works. Also - someone suggested it, physical resisstance should be an thing as well.

About Bless. Even thought i love to make Holy-Fire, i agree with. And i don't know if more required AP Points would fix that. Maybe the should do it like the Warfare-Heal-Skill from DOSEE - that you only can use it one in Combat(per Character of course) - however the same should count for the Curse... But i guess more required AP Points would help already =)

you can bless ice, it no longer makes you slip and it gives you magic Armour when you walk on it.

it's way to flexible even if it had more AP cost it just fixes all environmental problems with no thought needed.

I havent even tried blessing ice yet. I was actually avoiding to use it most of the time.

Maybe its too flexible, but curses counter it so they balance eachother.
It is definitely too cheap in AP cost, but thats what alpha and beta testing like this is for.



But thats exactly why i think its not good. You generally dont fix one op thing by making the other thing op and leaving the first one as it was.

I think it may be devs listened too much to those who cry about "rng" and tried to simplify it all, and to also make combat quicker. But TB systems can only take so much of things getting quicker. And paying too much attention to crying screaming "fans".

However, there is still plenty of time to make some slight changes to the current system to make it even better.
Either that or the mods will fix it.

I think the reason Larian reduced the number of AP is because in DOS1 if you get the INITIATIVE you were able to kill/CC everyone in ONE TURN. Literally you pour points in SPEED and you got tons of AP and tons of init, add leadership 5 with something like +5/7 init and no enemy had a chance.

There is a Catch22 for TURN based combat. Where you have flexibility/balancing with high max AP because really powerful skills require more AP, but you can also do several low AP actions (in DOS1 you could get all the touch spells at 3AP and literally CC 3 or more enemies in one turn). Ideally you should NOT be able to do more than ONE action in each turn. That's the issue you get Init and can do 3+ actions before anyone else.

As a comparison PAUSE based combat like Baldur's Gate/Dragon Age doesn't have the problem of INIT being so powerful (or AP at all) because you give all your team commands at one time and the INIT/casting time/etc. is calculated in the background (its more like real time, unlike Turn based where everyone is frozen while each player takes their turn). It makes you think every round, do I cast this long 'casting time' powerful spell or do something else because if I get hit at all even for 1hp it will cancel my spell and I lose it.

I guess one way Larian can address the INIT issue is to remove Init as a stat and maybe at beginning of each turn randomly sort action rotation. This wouldn't really fix AP issue but maybe make it OK to use higher MAX AP.

To be honest I think the whole 'magic armor' system is related to this, because Larian is trying stop what you could do in DOS1 where your team gets high Init and high AP and can devastate the enemy in one turn. Now at least you have to break down the armor before you can devastate them. So fights are longer but not too bad.

Side note, I played DOS1EE with the Epic Encounter that has changes to HardCC by adding SoftCC and have to say in theory it is better but in reality it just makes each fight take MUCH longer. Other stuff not related to CC are cool though.

In TB systems other NPCs are not "frozen" while you take your turn. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the system basics.

They - defend. Through several mechanics which may be resistances, interrupts, or dodging and armor mechanics. Depending on exact game design.

The problem of initiative was not in initiative itself but in what you can do with it if you exploit it.

RTwP has its own kind of problems and cant be so directly compared to TB systems at all.
That serves no point at all.

Well they changed the AP system more because... well... the action economy was outright downright broken in the first game.

Yeah there are some serious problems in DOS2... But the 4ap a turn and 6 max isn't one of them.

I have always been a big advocate of the current armor system as it is fairly unique in the world of rpgs and I continue to feel the same now. DOS has always been a very volatile combat system with big sweeping changes across the battlefield, sometimes with a single action. With that in mind, the armor system works quite well in being a temporary buffer between each unit and a swift death.

That aside, the topic is really about the AP system which seems to be working just fine, a few minor tweaks aside. It seems weird to me that people keep bringing up the idea that balance is important in DOS. It is important only in the sense that you don't it to swing TOO far in either direction, but keep in mind that it is a single player game which diminishes the value of a perfectly balanced system drastically. To put it in another light perhaps, I would much rather see the game devs put more time into crafting interesting scenarios rather than making sure that each ability and encounter is perfectly tuned.

And as far as the stat system as it relates to the aforementioned features, no it isn't perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than what they had last time I checked in. Last time I was here the stat system was such that you were losing power every time you didn't put your points into your "main" stat, in this system I feel fairly good about spreading stats at least a little. That being said, I wish they would just scrap the stats system entirely and tie the stuff it handles directly to your level instead since the stat system still is fairly uninspired and adds little to the game.

Hopefully you aren't offended, but the Reason why you think like that(and maybe some others as well) - is due you see in Divinity Original Sin 2 an Singleplayer with Co-op Features(or an Co-op Game), while this Game is an Multiplayer-RPG with Singleplayer/Co-op Features. I mean look at how some Core-Aspects are handled. Origin-Quests which compete against each other is one of this examples!

They want to deliever Pen & Paper "Roleplay" experience, which means also, to open up the Game so, that you even can attack your Friends for the sake of your Character. They want to encourage replaybility by more Playthroughs and each playthrough could be unique due the different Roles you and your friends play. If someone is an Assassins and you piss him off, if he roleplay it properly he kill you. And besides that there is also the Arena Mode.

It would be actually weird, if they don't try to balance the whole Game, because what use is of Competing, when you can't really compete because some builds are that overpowered. People who play Divinity Original Sin 2 - have to get away from the idea its primarily Focus is the Singleplayer Experience, and even while you can give Larian the Credits they try to please them as well - i mean look at the Love&Hate Systems which is mostly important for Single-player, they pay more attention how everything works in Multiplayer - and if you ask me - that is an good Point, because there aren't many proper RPGs with good Multiplayer-Functionality. DOS(+2) are pretty unique on that.

And that's why i seek as well for them to balance the Game. It's one thing to Battlestomp in an pure Singleplayer RPG - or to have general Balancing issues. And even in "fun" Co-op Games like Saint's Row its pretty okay to have balancing issues. And even in DOS1 i didn't mind that much. But DOS2 is different, because they want to deliever an proper Multiplayer - RPG...nothing like slaughterfest Diablo and such, but an true "Roleplaygame" like you experience with proper Singleplayer RPGs, and such Games we didn't had that much. If i remember correctly Neverwinter Nights and Baldurs Gate had Multiplayer, but except that most RPGs are focused on Singleplayer... and an proper Multiplayer, who also encourage competing and PvP - should be pretty balanced...


/edit:
I don't "claim" that Divinity Original Sin 2 is perfect, but if you look at the Features and the Basic-Ideas, the concept is more balanced than the first one, with things like Armor-System or limited AP Pool. The Systems only need more tweaking, and that's what the EA is for anyway.

I also want to point out, except the whole "Balancing" Issue, you should not forget, the Game is now Open for up to 4 players. It wouldn't be fair, if someone can shelter as much AP Points as possible so he battlestomp everything in the first round, while the other Players has nothing left to do. In 2Player Co-op this already can be frustrating, if you most of the time have to watch, in 4P Co-op it gets quite fast boring. I like it - if they value more Group-Play...

Balance is important for a single player game too.
When there is a large disparity between the effectiveness of some skills and archetypes, then players won't feel rewarded by using those on the under-performing side.
If a large portion of your content is avoided because it is unbalanced then your players will feel forced to play using the supported builds, instead of the style they actually wanted to use.
This leads to wasted development time as you worked on features that no one touched.

Since this is primarily a multiplayer game, this is an important issue. When a couple of members of your party feel significantly weaker than others, they're going to have a bad time.

On the original topic of AP, I believe a "fixed" action point system is a great change from DOS1. In DOS1 characters stacking Speed were able to take significantly more actions than others. It was the go-to stat. Having a fixed AP per turn makes this a lot easier to balance, and also doesn't leave characters with lower APs feeling left out with shorter turns.
Certainly we could scale this fixed per-turn-AP up to some other larger number, and this would make it easier to fine-tune some ability costs, but if abilities are balanced in other ways then the current AP system isn't inherently a problem.

On the subject of the new armor system, I have mixed feelings.
The current system prevents CCing the opposing team from the start of the fight, preventing them from ever getting an action, which is good. However, this problem is only delayed, as guaranteed CCs blanket anyone without armor later in the fight.
Also, Magic debuffs are suffering greatly. You can't do as much Magic Damage with Magic Armor up (can't apply Burning, Poison, etc.), but you need Magic Damage to tear it down.

It never ceases to amaze me how arrogant pricks on forums think they are entitled to insult others for giving their opinions. Many things in life are a matter of PERSONAL PREFERENCE and NOT right or wrong or indicative of good or bad person, get over yourselves.

I can see benefits of PAUSE based RPG over TURN based (I like both) but have to say Larian is doing a great job at 'fixing' the inherent problems. After I typed post yesterday I remembered that the 'low' AP system is NOT THAT BAD, because Larian also introduced memory and source point systems. So instead of having high level skills require high AP, they require more memory and source. This is very smart and much cooler than I originally realized. It allows low AP to control massive actions per turn of DOS1 but also allows more requirements for high level skills.

Thanks to an earlier post I realized why some people are complaining so much about every character having balance. It seems to be a multi-player/single-player issue. Playing a game as single player, I don't mind at all that different race/class are totally out of balance because 'as a team' that I totally control, it is part of the 'role playing'/fun to create a synergistic party.

BTW I still get 'glass cannon' on ranger/mage (6AP is great) but make sure rogue/fighter have spells like 'armor/frost' to remove stun and 'haste' (or other heat skill) to remove frozen. They already have synergy with ranger 'first aid' which removes mostly physical CC that can happen to melee guys. I put a point of ranger on mage to get this (and tact/retrt) and to get high ground+, worth it.

The one hard CC I hated was walking on ice, which knock you out for rest of turn and the next whole turn. Larian allows us to put nails (I had 80 nails last run too) on boots to eliminate that though, also hover and flying.

But with multi-player were you only control yourself or maybe you and 1 henchman, if you are a weaker race/class I can see that the game can get really boring. So naturally you want your favorite character to be just as powerful as everyone else. Might be one reason I hate multi-player. Anyway, seems like Larian is doing a good job at pleasing most people (except perpetual complainers) and even for them it is very mod-able. Great work Larian.

@LightningYu I understand your perspective but the argument that it modeling pen and paper means it needs to be balanced is strictly speaking false. Anyone who has every played pen and paper (which includes me regularly for about 10 years now) knows that just about nothing in any pen and paper rpg is balanced in any meaningful way and yet we love and enjoy it anyways despite it being by nature a multiplayer experience.

Here are a few examples of popular pen and paper formats and which base classes are particularly ridiculous in terms of power with almost no consequence to gameplay feel: (keep in mind that these are subjective opinions but you get the point)

Pathfinder: Paladin and basically any pure caster (but particularly arcane casters)
D&D 5E: Barbarian, wild shaping druids at early lvls, and certain warlock builds, and basically any pure caster (ranger and rogue are also still popular choices despite being complete trash in combat)
Apocalypse World: Gun Lugger (7 aoe armor piercing harm anyone?)
Across all P&Ps: Any class that has meaningful buffs (I'm looking at you bard @_@)

I could easily keep going but the point is that, while balance is still something that should be attempted, getting it just right really isn't that important especially in an RP heavy setting such as this.

[Edit]
I forgot, even my signature is related to RPGs. XD
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@error3 I totally agree, balance is indeed important so that players don't end up feeling useless. But that's as far is it necessary to go, anything beyond that has serious diminishing returns in terms of the value of effort invested.

One (of which there are many) serious consideration that is different from DOS and P&P is that in a P&P if everyone dies (a TPK) they simply roll up new characters and either pick up where they left off or start in a new setting. (or stop playing together T_T) In DOS you really don't have the option of forming a new party and, for obvious reasons, changing setting is off the table. However it has the same advantage that that P&Ps have in that the game is not particularly well balanced and as such there are usually creative ways that you can overcome challenges you are struggling with. I'm a big fan of creating silly traps myself, like using prestidigitation to quickly apply soap to a rope I'm finished climbing down. Obviously that particular example does not apply here, but clever use of skills, even ones that seem mediocre, can be very effective in DOS and if all else fails, exploiting the fairly obvious weaknesses of enemies does the trick most of the time. Using a basic wand to create elements on the field to exploit, or even fire breath for a reliable source of fiery ground for summoners against voidlings and zombies. You can also use elevation to your advantage which is something that most P&Ps don't even touch on [[[Minor Spoiler Warning]]] like when I took on most of the camp. I waited until everyone patrolled to the bottom before starting the fight to have a distinct positional advantage and bonus to my ranged character. [[[End Spoiler]]]