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#606504 19/07/17 07:15 PM
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Overall: Warrior (Strength) / Mage (Intelligence) / Thief (Finess). The problem is twofold, martial talents whose utility is questionable, others totally naze and the physical / magic armor system.

A lot of people have said, you're doing a full physical team right now and you're smashing everything. I will add the Finess fighters above all. In fact, these fighters have two big advantages: the martial talents for weapons that increase the damage and especially the combination Back stab / Guerilla + skills that allow you to ignore the physical armor or to further increase the damage in discretion. To have done it, quickly my archer could make almost all the opponents of the game without problem...
A friend could tell you about his Snape: by combining with Polymorph, he just did the game alone, exterminating all his enemies , Without them being able to play (invisibility + cancellation of the cooldowns and skill of Rogue), ultimately according to him. Let's add some points in Warfare and it's just a butchery, a pure warrior does not reach their ankles ...

In short, let us pass to the Magic! I love wizards, and I will not make one. Clearly, the nullest classes. Their advantage, do damage yes, but especially inflicting effects: Freeze / Stun / Burn etc. Except, thanks to your system of magical armor and well you are fucked, all your effects are canceled of base. No way to really increase the damage (martial / character etc. Nothing.) And especially if you combine magic armor + elemental resistance + Leadership, and well the magic will never do any damage to anything! So a PC mage or mage opponents, we know we risk nothing. While physical level, no problem, apart from armor nothing protects. Honestly, I have made several wise men, the only valid ones are: the Summoner, because intelligence is useless and Polymorphy for the same reason in addition to having skills that tap the physique. The others, I was just a bullet in relation to the warriors and I do not even mention the Rogues ...

As a reminder, in the 1 we had just resistances (in%), which increased with skills (Will and Musculation) and physical armor to your equipment that reduced the damage received, not canceled them. Now you can take explosions of barrels without even losing 1 PV...

Let's go to the martials abilities. So BEFORE, you had to get them up to get the next skill levels (1/2/3/4) and then be able to use them all, because it was your level that was telling you how much power you could use. So, it was expensive, but it was worth it! When I saw that you added more bonuses, I was happy! Even if some were not terrible, we do not care because they had to be taken. And then the reality: 1 point is enough to have all the skills, to compensate for the number of power you have combined Memory point and Source point, something that does not work, but we'll see later. So if they no longer serve to develop your abilities, or have slots for skills, the only thing that counts is your little bonuses:

So let's go on to the Warfare and Aerothurge, which are right there to oppose your system of magical and physical armor. A utility in the game, but minor. Especially when armor scores are high, once again, it's better to hit a single armor, to have characters attacking both, it's wasting too much time! So your system encourages a kind of "mono game". Too bad, it was the opposite in the 1, you could do the character you wanted, you remained efficient.

In short:

Huntsman: increased damage in height + 5%. Otherwise, there is Ranged + 5% damage. What do you think we're doing?

Scoundrel: same. + 5% critical damage, hum no 5% damage is better, good after, there is more movement. A little more useful than the previous one.

Hydrosophist: ok for extra care.

Geomancer: Poison Attacks + 5% and Physical Armor + 10%. Well no, it's not terrible.

Pyrokinetic: + 5% damage, not specified as for the Geomancer, but for the fire it seems to me. In that case, it's not great. On the other hand, if it is for all the magical damage, there is better. If magic was used for something, useful ... A hair.

Necromancer: 10% care on your damage, ok it's nice. Especially in combo with Retribution. On the other hand, there seem to be unexplained limitations, sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Polymorph: +1 attribute. Powerfull, best of all, clearly. Seriously you take what? +5% Fire /
Poison, Height, Critical Damage or +1 in an attribute that will give you the same in much better!

Summoning: the only really good. It is useful for itself because all the related skills depend on it and that's good. This is a talent well thought out!

Last edited by gourry02; 19/07/17 08:45 PM.
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I haven't played too much yet but I made a Rogue and it is simply the best DPS output source I have by far (Forg1ven reference).
However I feel like this comes from a bug in some skills.
Throwing dagger seems to double its damages when you cast it in melee (not only it backstab but apparently when in melee range you throw 2 daggers if you are dualwielding effectively increaing your damages by x4).
If I compare backlash and throwing knife, the tooltip displays the same theorical damages but throwing knife does a lot more.

Then there are other skills which seems to be able to backstab although they probably shouldn't.

So I am unsure if this is intended or if those are issues but that alone simply makes rogue insanely powerful.
I think the main problem with rogues in the first one was, not enough damage for the trouble and too much time spent trying to get to the back every turn.
Now you have more skills to position yourself and the damages skyrocketed way too hard.

However I agree with most other points. I prefered the Armor system in the first game.
In a way I like the fact that you can hardly be CC on the first turn unless focused because they have to wear your defences down.
And I like the fact that stronger spells were gated behind higher spec level, but I also like the passive bonuses from the skills.

We also have to keep in mind we are limited in the version we have, it is very possible higher level spell and skill have minimum stats or skill requirements.
That would be annoying to have a aerothurge with tons of points in air magic having very little benefits over a rogue with only one point.

On a side note, I love that we now have separate points for secondary skills (lockpicking etc.)
I like that the system has changed, I am not sure what are the implications at higher levels but beside a few balancing things (I look at you rogue) I am happy to see a new system smile.

Last edited by Deadknight; 20/07/17 12:11 AM.
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I'll say that my experience wasn't quite like yours. I've played 3x now to try different builds. I'll say that I've made a warrior and wizard whose damage was simply fantastic. My only complaint is yes, rogue might have done a bit more. I do think that is because of the bugs deadkngiht mentioned, and the current balancing issues with elf racials.

I think your complaint about magic is simply not leveling up Aerothurge. It doubles your damage gains during the magic armor phase (10% per point vs 5% for intelligence), and when you factor in the AoE abilities plus flesh sacrifice, Sebille can fully delete 1-3 targets even at level 7 as a wizard.

I don't want to get too much more into the class balancing because you hit on a point that just seems to weird to me that we're even having the discussion. The bonuses for some skills.

Unless there are soft caps coming, there is simply no reason to put additional points into Huntsman/PyroKinetic/Scoundrel/Geo. Polymorph is your benchmark in this. You will always get at least 5% from your stat attribute, plus its secondary bonus (physical armor, dodge, and magic armor respectively). Even beyond that, for a warrior/rogue/archer, the weapon abilities apply in ALL scenarios, whereas the skill ones have some caveat. With Aerothurge and Warfare, this makes sense - you want some armor destruction to get into that sweet CC zone. THere's an interesting balance there - am I melting armor too fast? Then I'll put the point into weapons. Can I not quite do it in 1-2 hits? I'll put it into aero/warfare.

5% more damage on the highground vs 5% more damage ANY time is just a no brainer.

I'm not sure I agree with summoning. I'm 8 points in now and my incarnate still seems about useless. Ignored and ignorable. The totems are absolutely beasting. 2ap for potentially 120+ points of damage over time. I feel like the incarnates aren't getting the summoning buffs from the skill up. 8 points and whirlwind still deals 16 points of damage? At level 7? That's just ... nothing. It feels like a bug there somewhere.

Last edited by Vignarg; 20/07/17 02:38 AM.
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Deadknight : I do not think this is a bug. In fact, it's just that using the CAC, you send all your daggers to a target (there's an archer skill like that too). Normally, it's to hit several target, but do not be stupid, everyone uses it at CAC ^^

"We also have to keep in mind we are limited in the version we have, it is very possible higher level spell and skill have minimum stats or skill requirements.
That would be annoying to have a aerothurge with tons of points in air magic having very little benefits over a rogue with only one point."

Currently it is, and it is a big problem for me...

Vignarg : As you said, Flesh Sacrifice without him, you are already doing badly less badly. I also have a team of mages, I do not say that you are useless, but you are compared to the warriors and the rogues. Honestly, all had to have Aerothurge (and it's annoying, when you know that Warfare is not even mandatory for a rogue, your skills can ignore the physical armor ...), with my friends, a magician (me) and an archer, I can assure you that we soon saw the difference. And yet, Intelligence, Aerothurge and Pyro thoroughly.

After, may be you have a build very good! But i did not find it XD.

And for the Summoning, i talk for the abilitie itself. Yes, the Incarnate is good for tank! But for damage... It's curious you 're right.

Last edited by gourry02; 20/07/17 06:42 PM.
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So I'm pretty sure different damage bonuses multiply together rather than just adding. For example, 10 points in int (1.50x more damage) and 10 in pyrokinetics (1.50x) multiply together to 2.25x more damage. Putting all those ability points in polymorph for more int would be just 20 int for 2x more damage. By late game, you'll do way more damage with a diversified damage source investment than with pure int (of course, polymorph is limited to 10 so you'll end up diversifying anyway).

Not positive, but fairly certain this is how it works and the numbers make sense. This is also what makes several damage bonuses so strong: e.g., 5 ranged + 5 hunstman + 5 fin = 1.25 x 1.35 (10% base + 5 hunstman) x 1.25 = 2.10x when attacking from high ground (much better than 1.85x from all points in fin).

Larian needs to make this much more clear.

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@Baardvark - so I saw you mention that in another post somewhere (reddit maybe), and I thought it was an interesting thing to consider. So I started a new game and just banked points. Then I dumped them all into str, noted the tooltip damage; all into abilities - noted the tooltip damage; and a mix between the two. And then just to be sure, I did the popular "just pump poly".

As expected, the (poly + attributes) == (attributes + weapon skills). So right off the bat, you can make a case for some builds completely ignoring weapon skills, at least until they hit any kind of soft-cap on poly. Depends which secondary boost you want more (2h crit builds would prefer that crit multiplier, obviously).

But to your point, do the abilities calculate additive or multiplicative? I don't think they calculate multiplicative.

Every other number is balanced fairly well in that regard. 5% is the flat, 10% is the niche. You don't see Aero or Warfare adding on multiplicative - if they worked multiplicative, they'd be double dipping even harder than the others. Likewise with scoundrel's critical % - the number updates immediately in your character sheet at flat additive rates.

I think min/maxing aside, it makes for uninteresting choices. This is way too late in the development to change, but I really hate these static bonuses to damage. The only thing it does is create a potential pit trap for "wasting" points. Things like scoundrel are a perfect example of an interesting decision. Do I want to get more movement bang out of my AP buck? There's no flat damage associated to it - but maybe you're building around that. In the current state - hell no, I want 5-10% more damage baby! Who DOESN'T make that choice!?





Last edited by Vignarg; 20/07/17 09:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by gourry02
Deadknight : I do not think this is a bug. In fact, it's just that using the CAC, you send all your daggers to a target (there's an archer skill like that too). Normally, it's to hit several target, but do not be stupid, everyone uses it at CAC ^^


Sorry but that makes no sense to me.
If you only take the rogues non-source abilities you have (scoundrel not being ranged focus specialization), it has the highest damages of all. Not only that but why won't you throw both your dagger at range then ? And why isn't it explained in the skill description ? The benefit of the ability is to be able to backstab at range but it probably should not out DPS any other melee skill you have in the scoundrel spec.
And on top of all you can use every turn doing your melee damage x2 (x4 if you back stab) for only 2 AP.
On a side note flurry is completely useless only doing 150% of you basic attack damage for 3 points.

For all of that, Hope this is an issue or at least, please explain the skill better in the tooltip. That is the most damaging ability BY FAR that only costs 2 ap, no source point requirement, you can use every turn without even being in melee. Across the entire Alpha build have, that is the best damaging skill with the least restriction.

Last edited by Deadknight; 21/07/17 04:47 PM.
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The problem is not only balance between classes. But with the new armor system, even if your hunter take the enemy down to 5hp, your mage won't finish him because he still has all his magical armor. There's no synergy between physical dmg and magical. So it's best to have a party of either full physical or magical dmg. Since physical class (rogue, hunter) are better atm, it's best if you only take physical class in your party.


And of course, races are unbalanced too. Elf >>>>>>> dwarf > lizard > human. Yes, lizard before human because +2 int for mage is nice.


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Have your mage necromancers so they deal physical damages xD

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Hum, sorry, but it has nothing to do with it. It's like saying that in a game you have 5 different powers, only one is useful, and "it's good, this game works!". No, it does not work.

On 5 magical skills, there's one that taps on the physical armor, cool. The others remain unnecessary in the case presented by Veligan. Moreover, and if I do not want to develop Necromancy? I have to do it nevertheless mandatory, because the game system completely breaks the diversity of the gameplay that existed in the 1st?

At the same time, in their system, you just need to put a point to have all the skills. Because yes, to better use a weapon, camouflage or magic, you just need memory ...

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... That was sarcasm...

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To add to this:

The fact that all mages need to pump up Air in order to takeout magic armor is pretty lackluster in giving us a way to address the armor system since it kills diversity to basically force our hands.

If they want to address things, but keep the armor system: they really need to look at skill point investmets and talents.

Making Pyro give 10-15% damage to fire would be a start. Increase Air to 20% to magical armor.

Polymorph shouldn't give a free attribute or if it does, make it give one automatically to a range of things. It should encourage greater diversity rather than more specialization.

In short, the armor system and magic wouldn't feel so bad if the skill points and talents invested in actually felt desirable and competitive.

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The armor system will always remain terrible as long as it is seperate. It will always force to have a group either of full physical dmg or full magical. And I don't think buffing skill points and talents will adress this issue.
I'd much rather have the RNG from DOS1 than this horrible armor system.


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Originally Posted by aj0413
To add to this:

The fact that all mages need to pump up Air in order to takeout magic armor is pretty lackluster in giving us a way to address the armor system since it kills diversity to basically force our hands.


I really don't think you need air, you can just get a high spec in fire or geo and your spell will have better damages as well not only against shield (mind you a little less than air) but against health too.

I guess you can also have your ranger get specced in air so when you use magic arrows you do more damages to magic shield ^^.
It probably works with melee weapons with damagic damages.

The only problem with magic vs armor is enemies can have magical armor but non have physical resistance and armor does't reduce physical damage taken. As I mentioned in a different reply I wish they would use a similar system to battle brother for the armour damage mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Deadknight
Originally Posted by aj0413
To add to this:

The fact that all mages need to pump up Air in order to takeout magic armor is pretty lackluster in giving us a way to address the armor system since it kills diversity to basically force our hands.


I really don't think you need air, you can just get a high spec in fire or geo and your spell will have better damages as well not only against shield (mind you a little less than air) but against health too.

I guess you can also have your ranger get specced in air so when you use magic arrows you do more damages to magic shield ^^.
It probably works with melee weapons with damagic damages.

The only problem with magic vs armor is enemies can have magical armor but non have physical resistance and armor does't reduce physical damage taken. As I mentioned in a different reply I wish they would use a similar system to battle brother for the armour damage mitigation.


You don't NEED air but the percentage increase over time for investing in it just makes it much more potent over time and since party diversity requires being able to strip armor fast....it just becomes a major self detriment not to take it. Especially since once armor is gone there is no resistance to status effects.

Hell I'd argue a full air mags is one of the most point efficient classes in the game since focusing on stripping mate armor then opens enemies up to stun/shock/blind m/frozen

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Except the (big) bosses will probably be immune to some (if not most) status effect meaning all those air point won't be that useful.

Of course big bosses aren't super frequent so it's fine but it also means there is value into Roleplaying your character to some extent. I mean I don't think everyone will min-max and if you want to have a full pyromancer you'll still be effective.

I think a Hybrid mage Air/Necromancer would be super good to adapt it's damage depending on the lowest resistance too. but I have the feeling necromancer have better synergy when paired its spec with a melee focus.

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as if this game doesnt have enough issue in diversity already, you watch as tactical mod is beaten within 1 week with 4 elf character endlessly spaming flesh sacrifice + adrenaline + time wrap + skin graft and the enemy just stand there until they all dies.

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As far as I tested the current version, I can say that a scoundrel/warrior and a mage can be equally strong; the problem is in specific skill combinations, in particular Adrenaline+Skin Graft+Teleport+Executioner talent turn almost any damage-oriented class into a one-turn-all-killing machine. The issue of crowd control is absolutely irrelevant with such a build.

My proposal is:
Skin Graft - increase AP cost to 2.
Teleport - increase AP cost to 3.
Executioner - reduce AP on kill to 1.

Optionally, some of these skills may require 2 or more points in a corresponding ability.
Originally Posted by Deadknight

Huntsman: increased damage in height + 5%. Otherwise, there is Ranged + 5% damage. What do you think we're doing?

Polymorph: +1 attribute. Powerfull, best of all, clearly. Seriously you take what? +5% Fire /
Poison, Height, Critical Damage or +1 in an attribute that will give you the same in much better!


Deadknight, am I wrong to say that damage in height bonus has a multiplicative effect while combining with finesse (like critical damage bonus) while bonus from Ranged is additive? If I am right, there is a point in investing into the Huntsmen mastery.

Moreover, I think we will need 2+ points in a mastery to get better spells in the final version of the game. I wish I knew for sure; can anybody comment?

As for Polymorph, I absolutely agree in case of an average or damage-dealing character because anyone usually needs Memory to some point while keeping Wits up-to-date is also very useful - in addition to a main attribute. On the other hand, if Pyrokinetic and other damage-oriented mastery abilities will be boosted, this will settle the disbalance, because "supportive" mastery passive bonuses will find their niche anyway.

I also think that the passive bonus of Geomancy is quite weird because main damage of this mastery is earth damage. Besides, I can only remember 2 skills restoring physical armour at the moment.


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dont over do it, i'd rather they buff some of the unuseble stuff like pure summoner over gimping us even further, which will only force more pigeon holing.

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Teleport is fairly ok, it is only op when paired with the skin graft combo, granting player tripple the amount of actions than the enemy, this amplify in a party if all party runs the same build. I tested last run and it was laughable, you can even wipe out dallis's entire party with this endless spam before their archer even moves.

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