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Could someone tell me why Wit "isn't" an important stat? Unless you want to give up the initiate totally or ignore secret treasure, you have to invest in wit somehow. Two points in Wit simply save you two points that you can invest in other attributes, in fact human is the most flexible race.

Getting first move means you can focus fire to erase one or two enemies, it's far more important than some damage granted by two attributes.

Eating corpse skills are still limited by the memory your elves have , useful but far from op, imo.

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Wits isn't a shit stat. It's not something you're gonna focus on, but if you never invest in wits you're probably gonna be screwed whenever you face larger groups of enemies in tactician or later on in the game. Especially since enemies usually get great positioning, like an archer with high ground that can shoot ricochet into your tightly bunched group and break half your armor first turn. So humans might be at a tad of a disadvantage at level one, but by level 6 if your human rogue has different stats than your elven rogue then you obviously enjoy being hit by every single enemy out there before you even move. It's still possible to win the Early Access first chapter on classic mode like that, but I doubt it will be that way once the full release comes out.

Honestly by level 6 the racial bonuses to stats mean very little, and they will mean progressively less as you level. Even playing a dwarven mage with 2 points in strength you'll never use is no huge deal by then. It won't be balanced, it won't be optimal, but even in tactician it will still probably be viable (since in a game that isn't focused only on pvp, viable isn't the same thing as balanced, viable just means completing the game is possible with that race/class).

However I'm still never gonna play as a dwarven mage. If I play as a race I'm GONNA use that racial bonus cuz it pisses me the hell off to have a stat with points invested that I'm never gonna use. I'm no minmaxer, I'll play suboptimal classes just because they are more fun, but it's annoying as hell to have poorly invested stats. I think it offends my sense of neatness and organization. I'd rather the racial combat bonuses just didn't exist at all and Larian focused on balancing the racial skills.

In which case, yeah, getting a free AP on an elf is too good. Much better than encourage, even if encourage DOES scale to give 4 or even 5 attribute points by end game. Because by end game, you're gonna have a lot of points, so the extra 5 isn't going to make a huge difference. But you'll never get more than 4 ap, so an extra 25% will always be awesome.

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Originally Posted by geala
Wits is a very important attribute. Starting first is a huge help in winning fights.

You are exaggerating a lot with the humans weakness. I have Ifan as "Knight" and Lohse as "Ranger" and they are absolutely fine.

However, you are correct that elves are a bit too good overall. Getting skills from eating is very nice. Also getting a free ap in a fight is ... extremely nice. Too nice, as ap is the most precious resource ingame. I play a male elf as main and have Sebille as rogue. I do not use Flesh Sacrifice on my main and can feel the difference. It is extremely strong to have Flesh Sacrifice.


did you forget they also get 10% INCREASED DAMAGE as well as ap? it use to be 20%, seriously who the hell thought thats a good idea?

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Originally Posted by Party Starter
Wits isn't a shit stat. It's not something you're gonna focus on, but if you never invest in wits you're probably gonna be screwed whenever you face larger groups of enemies in tactician or later on in the game. Especially since enemies usually get great positioning, like an archer with high ground that can shoot ricochet into your tightly bunched group and break half your armor first turn. So humans might be at a tad of a disadvantage at level one, but by level 6 if your human rogue has different stats than your elven rogue then you obviously enjoy being hit by every single enemy out there before you even move. It's still possible to win the Early Access first chapter on classic mode like that, but I doubt it will be that way once the full release comes out.

Honestly by level 6 the racial bonuses to stats mean very little, and they will mean progressively less as you level. Even playing a dwarven mage with 2 points in strength you'll never use is no huge deal by then. It won't be balanced, it won't be optimal, but even in tactician it will still probably be viable (since in a game that isn't focused only on pvp, viable isn't the same thing as balanced, viable just means completing the game is possible with that race/class).

However I'm still never gonna play as a dwarven mage. If I play as a race I'm GONNA use that racial bonus cuz it pisses me the hell off to have a stat with points invested that I'm never gonna use. I'm no minmaxer, I'll play suboptimal classes just because they are more fun, but it's annoying as hell to have poorly invested stats. I think it offends my sense of neatness and organization. I'd rather the racial combat bonuses just didn't exist at all and Larian focused on balancing the racial skills.

In which case, yeah, getting a free AP on an elf is too good. Much better than encourage, even if encourage DOES scale to give 4 or even 5 attribute points by end game. Because by end game, you're gonna have a lot of points, so the extra 5 isn't going to make a huge difference. But you'll never get more than 4 ap, so an extra 25% will always be awesome.


Assuming they dont change the skills at release, i think you forgot how broken it is to start first as a party of 4 then run adrenaline + skin graft. Slap a double flesh sacrifice and may be glass cannons too. Lets make it even more broken with the 20+ ap combo that is time wrap. You can teleport up to 6 enemies across the map together then proceed to aoe them to oblivion.

Also that extra AP is a free sneak/buff or whatever, and 10% more damage.

Constitution isnt important right now because once your armor is off you get chain stunned by AI anyway.

Last edited by Cyka; 16/08/17 07:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by Veligan

It's not about hate it's about pointing out something unbalanced so that Larian can fix it (if they're even reading this forum).


It feels to me you don't see the point I am trying to make.

Now, if a 4% damage difference is a deal breaker to you for any DPS class, then you clearly want to min max.
And any game, when you min max you will always have optimal racial/class/skill combinaison which forbid certain liberty in how you build your character but that's the entire point of min maxing.

Also, as I have mentioned, I think human are even superior than other races if you want a crit build. So for min maxing you might even choose them.
Now you might not like a crit build but that's your choice to ignore it, it's not the race being bad or unbalanced.

If we go with that logic:
Elfes are Rogues
Dwarves are Tanks
Lizards are Casters
Humans are Support (Heals, shield and armor buffing isn't enhanced by any stat, only specialization)

How are they underpowered they fit a role as well ? and the wits allow them to act first to buff before the enemy acts.
And they have the perfect racial for support characters as well.

All in all I think this more a case of the Elf active being seen as op rather than the Human being weak.

Ho and the summoner don't really seems to scale any with any stat (summons only care about the summoning skill and the Dimentional bolt has pretty poor damages anyway. Only use it to create elemental surface for your summon.) so human would be good for it, casting their pet early in fight and buffing them further with their active human spell.

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Originally Posted by Cyka
Originally Posted by geala
Wits is a very important attribute. Starting first is a huge help in winning fights.

You are exaggerating a lot with the humans weakness. I have Ifan as "Knight" and Lohse as "Ranger" and they are absolutely fine.

However, you are correct that elves are a bit too good overall. Getting skills from eating is very nice. Also getting a free ap in a fight is ... extremely nice. Too nice, as ap is the most precious resource ingame. I play a male elf as main and have Sebille as rogue. I do not use Flesh Sacrifice on my main and can feel the difference. It is extremely strong to have Flesh Sacrifice.


did you forget they also get 10% INCREASED DAMAGE as well as ap? it use to be 20%, seriously who the hell thought thats a good idea?


It was someone who really liked elves. A bit too much. I like elves because they go half-naked and barefoot, but that was seemingly not enough. grin

The damage is not that important in my opinion. The ap is the huge bonus. I would be ok with, if they take it away and give me some other for it. More Wits for example?

Starting first for me is the most important aspect in this game. Did I already say that damage is not that important? You do much damage anyway. Doing it first in a certain way doubles your armor, damage and cc. A person who puts points in Strength, Intelligence or Finesse while neglecting Wits is ... bold.

Some more Wits as racial gift frees up points for other attributes. So in the end it is an up to damage too.

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Originally Posted by Deadknight
Originally Posted by Veligan

It's not about hate it's about pointing out something unbalanced so that Larian can fix it (if they're even reading this forum).


It feels to me you don't see the point I am trying to make.

Now, if a 4% damage difference is a deal breaker to you for any DPS class, then you clearly want to min max.
And any game, when you min max you will always have optimal racial/class/skill combinaison which forbid certain liberty in how you build your character but that's the entire point of min maxing.


I'm going to play Lohse for her story. Yes human. it's not about min maxer vs non min maxer. It's about something unbalanced.
And as you said in your previous post, yes human are not optimal. And This is it. This isn't a debate regarding if you should choose a race because it's op or because you like it. This is just pointing out something unbalanced during an early access game and nothing more.

And also, as some people mentioned it too, race shouldn't encourage you to play a class.

Last edited by Veligan; 17/08/17 11:56 AM.
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Originally Posted by Veligan

I'm going to play Lohse for her story. Yes human. it's not about min maxer vs non min maxer. It's about something unbalanced.
And as you said in your previous post, yes human are not optimal. And This is it. This isn't a debate regarding if you should choose a race because it's op or because you like it. This is just pointing out something unbalanced during an early access game and nothing more.

And also, as some people mentioned it too, race shouldn't encourage you to play a class.


Well they are not imbalanced in my opinion, but the argument is going too far for too long, it's useless.

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It's a pity.

"Not optimal" does not mean "unbalanced". And it certainly does not mean "not viable for anything".

I play as main an elf as Strength/Int based Necro/Hydro/Poly/Warfare with one-handed weapon and shield. Because I like the elf. Although he is far from "optimal". The bonus in Finesse is a bit a waste, and I need two additional attribute points in Wits to get him on the initiative level of my humans. This is about 4 levels behind in other attributes where my humans can give points in.The racial is of no great use because with the hit to Constitution I blow my shield away.

So what? It is not a game breaker and you can choose another race if you like to min/max. You say you don't like to min/max, but calling slight differences "unbalanced" because they are "not optimal" smells a lot like min/maxing.

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Originally Posted by geala
It's a pity.

"Not optimal" does not mean "unbalanced". And it certainly does not mean "not viable for anything".

I play as main an elf as Strength/Int based Necro/Hydro/Poly/Warfare with one-handed weapon and shield. Because I like the elf. Although he is far from "optimal". The bonus in Finesse is a bit a waste, and I need two additional attribute points in Wits to get him on the initiative level of my humans. This is about 4 levels behind in other attributes where my humans can give points in.The racial is of no great use because with the hit to Constitution I blow my shield away.

So what? It is not a game breaker and you can choose another race if you like to min/max. You say you don't like to min/max, but calling slight differences "unbalanced" because they are "not optimal" smells a lot like min/maxing.


Except the elf has the flesh eater trait....so elves are actually the most optimal thing for anything.

And the problem with the arguments here is that while non-optimal =/= unbalanced because optimal must take into acct the question "optimal for what?"

Humans are unbalanced in the essence that at least with the other classes you're getting a race that can do a specific role or build pretty well. You can put them in a party or solo them.

A human though? The only actual role that a human can do exceptionally well is a leader that wants to use high wits to buff the party and allies and maybe play support/rogue.

Soloing? Well the special is now useless.
Someone who doesn't need to go first to make the build work (warrior, mage, ect...)? Well if you don't plan to pump wits thats wasted points better spend elswhere. High wits or no wits. You can't just go for middle ground.

These don't inherently make them something to avoid permanently....but. Just as,say, the lizard feels shafted into the Mage role cause he needs the fire tree and stuff to actually make his ability useful? The Human can only play a party leader role well.

It's a problem with the races in general. A racial trait should feel useful for all builds and while some might work better with others than some we shouldn't feel gimped or like theirs wasted potential.

Humans, in particular, highlight this since it's such a heavy handed way of telling the player to use a party and focus on using them.



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As someone who pumps points into Wits like there's no tomorrow (and there won't be, because I'll be first!), I find humans very useful. Also, their capes win out over any argument in my mind.

Originally Posted by aj0413
Someone who doesn't need to go first to make the build work (warrior, mage, ect...)? Well if you don't plan to pump wits thats wasted points better spend elswhere. High wits or no wits. You can't just go for middle ground.


It's worth pointing out that even if your high wits character doesn't need to buff everyone as their first turn, they can delay that turn and get back-to-back turns on their next turn, usually when the enemy is closer, or your allies have set them up for you. High wits will always be useful, because the person who goes first can control the battlefield.

Solo-wise, humans even have an advantage right from the start. If they pump their bonus points into Wits, they'll be able to go first in every even-level fight. Now, granted, they don't have the insane bonuses a rogue Elf would, but that's a different discussion on the current overpowered Elf racial ability and the double-dipping nature of backstabbing.

On another note, Lizard's fire breath has more uses than just (pitiful) damage. I use it to ignite surfaces, both for offensive and defensive purposes. The extra intelligence can be useful on a warrior, to allow them to equip the higher level mage armors if needed.

The Dwarf ability can be used to protect an ally and clear some debuffs, and their extra strength is actually useful on a mage, as it'll allow them to equip the higher-level armor that requires more than 10 strength to even out their armor/magic armor amounts (going all mage armor would be bad, because their regular armor would be low).

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Agreed with LaughingLeader. You guys are too obsessed with those builds. In my plythroughs I used to sped a few points in almost every stat because of item restrictions. Mages can't wear only magic res. because of archers and tanks need int to get magic armor.
As for humans they are pretty good as mentioned earlier. Encourage gives a pretty solid buff, Wits is great because you really need to get that adventage. Especially for those who whine about surfaces. If you go first you shred enemies armor first if you do that, you can cc enemy first - easy win.

Yeah, if you're gonna play 4 rogues elves then it's possibly not so needed for you (I guess, didn't tied) but again if bugs with +20 AP will fixed and stuff like that be rebalanced, who knows.

And btw, who knows what lies in Acts 2, 3... maybe those will have some encounters that will be hard to occure with rogues and you will need that "stupid" Wits

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Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by geala
It's a pity.

"Not optimal" does not mean "unbalanced". And it certainly does not mean "not viable for anything".

I play as main an elf as Strength/Int based Necro/Hydro/Poly/Warfare with one-handed weapon and shield. Because I like the elf. Although he is far from "optimal". The bonus in Finesse is a bit a waste, and I need two additional attribute points in Wits to get him on the initiative level of my humans. This is about 4 levels behind in other attributes where my humans can give points in.The racial is of no great use because with the hit to Constitution I blow my shield away.

So what? It is not a game breaker and you can choose another race if you like to min/max. You say you don't like to min/max, but calling slight differences "unbalanced" because they are "not optimal" smells a lot like min/maxing.


Except the elf has the flesh eater trait....so elves are actually the most optimal thing for anything.

And the problem with the arguments here is that while non-optimal =/= unbalanced because optimal must take into acct the question "optimal for what?"

Humans are unbalanced in the essence that at least with the other classes you're getting a race that can do a specific role or build pretty well. You can put them in a party or solo them.

A human though? The only actual role that a human can do exceptionally well is a leader that wants to use high wits to buff the party and allies and maybe play support/rogue.

Soloing? Well the special is now useless.
Someone who doesn't need to go first to make the build work (warrior, mage, ect...)? Well if you don't plan to pump wits thats wasted points better spend elswhere. High wits or no wits. You can't just go for middle ground.

These don't inherently make them something to avoid permanently....but. Just as,say, the lizard feels shafted into the Mage role cause he needs the fire tree and stuff to actually make his ability useful? The Human can only play a party leader role well.

It's a problem with the races in general. A racial trait should feel useful for all builds and while some might work better with others than some we shouldn't feel gimped or like theirs wasted potential.

Humans, in particular, highlight this since it's such a heavy handed way of telling the player to use a party and focus on using them.



It is usually not possible to have diversity and meaningful different skillsets and at the same time the same usefulness for everything.

And, as implied in my post, I would give my elf's racials with delight for those of the humans.

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Originally Posted by 626th
Agreed with LaughingLeader. You guys are too obsessed with those builds. In my plythroughs I used to sped a few points in almost every stat because of item restrictions

Originally Posted by geala

"Not optimal" does not mean "unbalanced". And it certainly does not mean "not viable for anything".

I play as main an elf as Strength/Int based Necro/Hydro/Poly/Warfare with one-handed weapon and shield. Because I like the elf. Although he is far from "optimal". The bonus in Finesse is a bit a waste, and I need two additional attribute points in Wits to get him on the initiative level of my humans. This is about 4 levels behind in other attributes where my humans can give points in.The racial is of no great use because with the hit to Constitution I blow my shield away.

So what? It is not a game breaker and you can choose another race if you like to min/max. You say you don't like to min/max, but calling slight differences "unbalanced" because they are "not optimal" smells a lot like min/maxing.


The problems here are that we are playing the First chapter on Classic mode. Things that are doable now will not be so doable after the game is released and you can advance in the story. The game isn't going to become easier in later chapters, that's not how Larian, or any good rpg developer, makes thier games. And that's not even accounting for Tactician mode, which I know I will be trying right out the starting gates, and many people will at least attempt, if not exclusively play.

Things you can do right now, like someone equally dividing between Dex/Str/Int to get nice armor might be not just sub-optimal, but also completely unplayable in these scenarios.

Additionally, you don't have to be a dedicated minmaxer to be disappointed when something you are doing is OBVIOUSLY weaker than another option you can take. If the difference is minute or not obvious, that's fine, I can ignore it. However, if every time I open the stat page of my hypothetical Elvish swordsman and I get to see 2 wasted points, I'm going to get annoyed. It doesn't matter that those 2 points aren't a big deal, it just matters that I have to see them all the time and that they are a clear sign of waste.

Frankly, the game would be better off without the current racial bonus stats. I think at least some people besides me will be annoyed by them, and even those who don't will at best simply tolerate them. They aren't fun. They aren't interesting. They don't do anything that merely leveling doesn't do. Racial skills are interesting, if unbalanced currently, but the bonuses are unimaginative and boring as hell, and all they really do is restrict which races are optimal for what, which will just annoy some people and have no effect on others.

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Originally Posted by Party Starter
Frankly, the game would be better off without the current racial bonus stats. I think at least some people besides me will be annoyed by them, and even those who don't will at best simply tolerate them. They aren't fun. They aren't interesting. They don't do anything that merely leveling doesn't do. Racial skills are interesting, if unbalanced currently, but the bonuses are unimaginative and boring as hell, and all they really do is restrict which races are optimal for what, which will just annoy some people and have no effect on others.


I kinda disagree.
I think it's ok to have racial bonuses that way. For players not used to RPG it guides them, so that's cool and experienced player know it's not that much of a big deal.

Plus it gives flavor. When you see the elves with +2 finesse or Lizard with +2 intelligence you already imagine these creature a certain way because the bonus tells you already something about the race.
So if you imagine a lizard society you will most likely envision them differently depending on what kind of racial bonus they have. So it adds a roleplay value more so than a strict +10% damage or whatever the bonus is.

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Originally Posted by Party Starter

Frankly, the game would be better off without the current racial bonus stats. I think at least some people besides me will be annoyed by them, and even those who don't will at best simply tolerate them. They aren't fun. They aren't interesting. They don't do anything that merely leveling doesn't do. Racial skills are interesting, if unbalanced currently, but the bonuses are unimaginative and boring as hell, and all they really do is restrict which races are optimal for what, which will just annoy some people and have no effect on others.


100% agree.

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I see where you're coming from, honestly. Traditional D&D had stat bonuses and penalties for (almost) every race, but I've always been one for homebrewing that kind of stuff out if my players have a proper backstory as to why, say, their dwarf might not have such a hardy constitution score as all of the other dwarves in his clan for example. Maybe this dwarf is more of a scholar than a miner due to something in his past, such as an ailment, that left his body malformed or weak in comparison to his brethren. That's just an example, however.

I think the most important thing here is to give the player the freedom to design the characters they want to play, rather than trying to shoehorn them into a certain playstyle by giving them predefined bonuses that hedge them towards playing a certain class better than the others. Sure, it may be considered min-maxing to some, but I like to consider it more as a way to put the freedom of creation back into the hands of the players, rather than to take the choice of design away from them.

If anything, it would be nice to have a way to change the statistics bonus that your character gets if only for roleplay reasons. Not every human is going to be naturally witty, and every character will excel at different things, wouldn't you think? Honestly, that's one of the best things about humans in D&D; they were practically blank slates that you could build into whatever you wanted viably, and still be pretty efficient at it due to a free feat of their choosing in later editions.

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The racial stats in traditional RPGs are even a bigger balance problem as you get much less additional stat points as you level up or stat bonuses with items.
But guess what ? A lot of roleplayers play to roleplay and don't need to have the ultimate build to be effective and to have fun !

I don't think Larian has to address the racial stats, I actually think it gives more to each race to think about and you'll be able to mod it out (they support modding so you have entire freedom).
And for the GM, (haven't tried it so can't be sure) but I would be surprised if the GM can't adjust players stats on the fly. If that's not the case, that could be a good addition.

If you have no stats bonuses what will you have ?
Only active racials ? So basically every class will want to be elf because of the +10% damage for 3 turns and the instant one free ap (good for everyone not only damage dealers).
And that's the point of the racials bonuses on top of the rest. Not all racial active spells have to be perfectly balanced if the race has something else to offer that encourage a specific "career path".

And removing the racial stat bonuses will remove the appeal of many races.

- Why would you want more than one Human ? You already have one that buffs the entire group.
But with 5% starting crit chance you may consider a Crit mage build or Warrior build.
- Why would I play a Lizard ? I don't like their fire breath I never use it.
But the +2 int makes it more interesting than the elf active for a caster since you have +10% damage all the time and 4% more magic armor.
- Why would I play a Dwarf ? Petrification has such a low range and I already have enough CC from my regular class spells.
But with +2 strength, again the passive makes it better for Warrior since you have the +10% damage permanently instead of for 3 turns (and + 4% Armor).

Not having additional stats bonuses will make the race choice much more one dimensional and boring.

They can't simply remove the racial stats bonuses without re-balancing all racial actives.

And saying: "I can't be optimal with every race.", ... it's the essence of being optimal, you restrict your own choices to get the best out of everything.
You can't be optimal without restricting your choices.

Quote
However, if every time I open the stat page of my hypothetical Elvish swordsman and I get to see 2 wasted points, I'm going to get annoyed. It doesn't matter that those 2 points aren't a big deal, it just matters that I have to see them all the time and that they are a clear sign of waste.


Wow "remove the racial it HURTS MY EYES!".

I can just imagine guys at Larian studio in the meeting room:
"We have to remove the racial, it may effect a certain type of players and they get annoyed when they see their stats.
- Well add a feature that hides stats from the inventory."

And I am not even mentioning all stats have secondary effect other than damage. Your swordsman won't necessarily be against having 2% more dodge from finesse.

What about a frontline warrior based on avoiding blows instead of taking them. Pretty elvish no ?
You can dual wield and have more dodge even with Strength weapons.

That's all the point of game too, try new things, have fun, explore, ... and don't look too much at your stats. Gotta take care of those eyes.

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Wits is a terrible stat. Their might be some unqiue build that uses it, but pretty much every single build wants to zero points into it. Wits gives you crit and higher intiiative, except it really gives you neither of those things.

Crit from wits is obsolete. Both types of physical damage builds already have 100% crit either through backstab or enrage. Spells cannot crit by default, and the talent that allows you to crit with them is really terrible for it's cost. Even if you take it you're still better off maxing int over taking wits for crit.

The initiative doesn't matter, because you can always guaranty you will go first. If you have 1 character with a summon, then you always go first, because you have the summon pull and you can have up to 10 turns to prepare before the enemy reaches you. If for some reason none of your characters have a summon, then you can still use clear mind to ensure you start first. Have the clear minded character at the front, while the rest of the party hangs back and they run back on the first turn, forcing the enemy to pursue and so you go first. If for some reason you have neither of these skills, you can still have you tank go ahead, pull, take a few shots, and then drag them back. If that is still somehow a problem, then at most 1 character needs wits, the rest should put zero points into it.

The problem with wits for turn order is it is a binary skill that must be exactly right to be of the most value. If my character has 16 wits while the enemy has 15, then great I go first (except for all the junk above that makes that not matter), but if I have 20 wits while the enemy has 15, I still only go first (the crit bonus is worthless). If I have 14 wits while the enemy has 15, then I go second and I'm just as screwed as if I had 10 wits. So you're better off pumping stats that are always useful.

In alpha I took zero wits on my characters and was able to go first in every fight and find all the discoverable secrets with clearmind + wits gear. Zero reason to take it.


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Originally Posted by Shisin
In alpha I took zero wits on my characters and was able to go first in every fight and find all the discoverable secrets with clearmind + wits gear. Zero reason to take it.
Conversely, I did a play through and put ever single point I could into WIT and nothing else at all.

I did always go first (obviously) and I did find some stuff by the salamanders I'd not seen before (perhaps you found it anyway somehow). It didn't much matter my damage was lower as it was the 45th time I'd played it.

Honestly if you want to complain about a useless stat it should be CON - WIT is OK as it at least does something. CON does nothing (perhaps later, we will see).

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