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It seems to me that Leadership, Perseverance, and Retribution are overall unsubstantial in terms of impact and give very little reason to invest in over offense abilities.

Leadership provides +5% dodging and +5% to all resistances for your allies, which seems great on paper except you have to be within 5 meters of the person for the affect to work. Considering how important positioning is, this is counter intuitive as it sets you team up to be easily affected by any surfaces or aoe abilities. Also, since it doesn't affect the person with points in that ability, you would need to have 2 members with points invested in it, thus cutting down the value of your investment by half (You can have one person not reap the benefits but considering how people will be grouped up, their likely to be targeted over other members).

Retribution reflects 10% of any damage taken to your attacker. The thing to note is that you still take the same amount of damage regardless of how many points you have invested, only the damage reflected is increased. This is only particularly useful on a tank that can soak up alot of damage, and since there is very little you can do to aggro enemy units, you have no guarantee that you will even be targeted in the first place. While it can somewhat synergize with necromancy (heal for a percent of damage reflected), you cannot restore physical or magical armor with this ability, still making you susceptible to any form of crowd control.

Perseverance restores 5% of your magical/physical armor based on what form of crowd control your character recovers from. This is imo the least useful stat due to how negligible the % is. This in particular doesn't protect you from follow up crow control as damage is applied before the effect takes place. To put in perspective how weak this attribute is, if a lvl 1 Aerothurge were to use Electric Discharge to follow up on a previous stun, you would need atleast 160 maximum magic armor to recover enough to negate that stun assuming the stun only does 8 damage. This doesn't consider the duration of that stun or any ongoing damaging effects like poison or burning.

Basically, defense abilities seem to be either too situational to be worth investing in or just not useful at all.

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Imagine the following

You're level 20 out of 40.

You have ten points (100%) in Retribution.

You have ten points (100%) in Necromancy.

You are hit for 150 damage.

Your enemy is hit for 150 damage.

You are healed 150 HP/shields/what have you.

Am I wrong to assume that that'd be pretty hilarious? And would work exactly liket hat unless things are changed?

Last edited by TraceChaos; 16/08/17 03:15 AM.
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Originally Posted by TraceChaos
Imagine the following

You're level 20 out of 40.

You have ten points (100%) in Retribution.

You have ten points (100%) in Necromancy.

You are hit for 150 damage.

Your enemy is hit for 150 damage.

You are healed 150 HP/shields/what have you.

Am I wrong to assume that that'd be pretty hilarious? And would work exactly liket hat unless things are changed?


I think health drain from necromancer is halved when this comes from reflection damage, so it would be 75 to avoid the scenario. But if you manage to have 20 in necromancy...

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Originally Posted by Deadknight
Originally Posted by TraceChaos
Imagine the following

You're level 20 out of 40.

You have ten points (100%) in Retribution.

You have ten points (100%) in Necromancy.

You are hit for 150 damage.

Your enemy is hit for 150 damage.

You are healed 150 HP/shields/what have you.

Am I wrong to assume that that'd be pretty hilarious? And would work exactly liket hat unless things are changed?


I think health drain from necromancer is halved when this comes from reflection damage, so it would be 75 to avoid the scenario. But if you manage to have 20 in necromancy...


Maybe benefits cap?

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Retribution is a good ability. I see it with already 3 or 4 points in. The other two I would not choose, although I have a melee heavy group and although I thought that Leadership despite the description would also count for the char itself which has points in it. If not it's even worse.

Last edited by geala; 16/08/17 09:11 AM.
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Retribution turns a tanky build into an offensive build.

Suddenly your sword and board is breaking the enemy's arms when they try to punch him.

You recover their health and armor? Well now your heal effectively does damage.

You used the Shields up ability? Well now you essentially did 100+ extra damage.

While... Leadership is kind of... Overpowered if you know how to take advantage of it... or terrible if you don't (I don't like leadership)

Retribution is flat out good.

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Originally Posted by Neonivek
Retribution turns a tanky build into an offensive build.

Suddenly your sword and board is breaking the enemy's arms when they try to punch him.

You recover their health and armor? Well now your heal effectively does damage.

You used the Shields up ability? Well now you essentially did 100+ extra damage.

While... Leadership is kind of... Overpowered if you know how to take advantage of it... or terrible if you don't (I don't like leadership)

Retribution is flat out good.


with how AI works, unless all 4 of your party member runs retribution i fail to see it actually works very well? It is more likely the AI just wipe anyone thats low on health or armor, save the guy with retribution last, by then its over at that point, unless someone enlightens me with a playthrough of retribution build.

Last edited by Cyka; 16/08/17 11:50 PM.
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This is basically what I'm getting at. You can't rely on a tank too soak up damage if you have no way of forcing the enemy to attack the tank. Unless you're doing a solo character run, you have to count on your other party members getting damaged instead.

More importantly, offense abilities have the benefit of always being used because you're in control of what your character does vs defense abilities where you can only react to what the enemy does with no reliability of whether your ability will be used against them.

Basically, because you can't control who the enemy attacks, defense abilities need to be stronger to compensate for that factor of unpredictability.

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You can use a tanky/support build also without being able to force enemies to attack you. Not as well as a classical tank of course.

You can position in a way that there is a higher chance that you get attacked. You can heal and buff and cc and at the same time deal some more constant damage. And the tanky char lives longer and can possibly ressurect (although I hate using scrolls for this). I think a group with some Morning Person talents is unbeatable.

As far as I remember the only time my main (Necro/Hydro/Poly/Warfare) died was when Radeka cast Shackles of Pain on him and he had to to help the group.

Last edited by geala; 17/08/17 09:45 AM.
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The way I found to play a tank is to have only one point in Warfare, one in Polymorth (for the Armour regen) the rest in geomancer for Fortitute.
He had a 1 handed weapon with poison damage (which get heavily increase by geomancy).

So I placed him far up front so the enemy attack him then I bring the rest of the group moves in range.
If the enemy ignore him and try to run to my back line, they wasted a turn so it's good too.
Then for the rest of the combat he helps with knockbacks or destroy armor/magical armour or giving armour to other party members.

But yeah the defensive abilities, I am unsure, however perseverance if you have 20 you regain all your armor after certain CC so, it's a heavy investment but it might be very strong late game.

However I still have to try it but a 2hander with Necromancy as a secondary spec might be a better tank.
You will attract enemy attacks and you can heal yourself with your attacks (works even through decay) and shackle of pain will either stop enemy to attack you or one of them will take damage (and the drain will work for 50%).

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Originally Posted by Deadknight
The way I found to play a tank is to have only one point in Warfare, one in Polymorth (for the Armour regen) the rest in geomancer for Fortitute.
He had a 1 handed weapon with poison damage (which get heavily increase by geomancy).

So I placed him far up front so the enemy attack him then I bring the rest of the group moves in range.
If the enemy ignore him and try to run to my back line, they wasted a turn so it's good too.
Then for the rest of the combat he helps with knockbacks or destroy armor/magical armour or giving armour to other party members.

But yeah the defensive abilities, I am unsure, however perseverance if you have 20 you regain all your armor after certain CC so, it's a heavy investment but it might be very strong late game.

However I still have to try it but a 2hander with Necromancy as a secondary spec might be a better tank.
You will attract enemy attacks and you can heal yourself with your attacks (works even through decay) and shackle of pain will either stop enemy to attack you or one of them will take damage (and the drain will work for 50%).


My question is in what scenario would you ever want to invest 20 points in anything? or even 10 for that matter? That's a rediculous amount of lvling just for one skill. This also means that for 20 lvls worth of skill points, you have a character with no offense capabilities who can only recover his magic/physical armor after recovering from a debuff. This doesn't even consider what will happen if he does get focused and killed before he recovers.

Now consider that with putting points into offense, literally 1 point in any skill tree unlocks a whole new set of abilities and gives you bonuses that you can actively use whenever you want. for 20 points, you can learn every skill in the game (assuming lvl 2 is the max requirement for a skill, not including abilities tied to specific companions). even if you put all 20 skill points in any offensive skill, you get a massive bonus that you can actively make use of (ie. 20 aerothurge/warfare +200% damage to magic/physical armor, 20 necromancy heals +200% of damage dealt, etc)

Basically, with how much offense skills give vs defense skills, you'll most likely invest your first 10 lvls of skill points there before even considering investing anything in the defense skills.

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Originally Posted by BraccusaurusRex
Originally Posted by Deadknight
The way I found to play a tank is to have only one point in Warfare, one in Polymorth (for the Armour regen) the rest in geomancer for Fortitute.
He had a 1 handed weapon with poison damage (which get heavily increase by geomancy).

So I placed him far up front so the enemy attack him then I bring the rest of the group moves in range.
If the enemy ignore him and try to run to my back line, they wasted a turn so it's good too.
Then for the rest of the combat he helps with knockbacks or destroy armor/magical armour or giving armour to other party members.

But yeah the defensive abilities, I am unsure, however perseverance if you have 20 you regain all your armor after certain CC so, it's a heavy investment but it might be very strong late game.

However I still have to try it but a 2hander with Necromancy as a secondary spec might be a better tank.
You will attract enemy attacks and you can heal yourself with your attacks (works even through decay) and shackle of pain will either stop enemy to attack you or one of them will take damage (and the drain will work for 50%).


My question is in what scenario would you ever want to invest 20 points in anything? or even 10 for that matter? That's a rediculous amount of lvling just for one skill. This also means that for 20 lvls worth of skill points, you have a character with no offense capabilities who can only recover his magic/physical armor after recovering from a debuff. This doesn't even consider what will happen if he does get focused and killed before he recovers.

Now consider that with putting points into offense, literally 1 point in any skill tree unlocks a whole new set of abilities and gives you bonuses that you can actively use whenever you want. for 20 points, you can learn every skill in the game (assuming lvl 2 is the max requirement for a skill, not including abilities tied to specific companions). even if you put all 20 skill points in any offensive skill, you get a massive bonus that you can actively make use of (ie. 20 aerothurge/warfare +200% damage to magic/physical armor, 20 necromancy heals +200% of damage dealt, etc)

Basically, with how much offense skills give vs defense skills, you'll most likely invest your first 10 lvls of skill points there before even considering investing anything in the defense skills.


all this...passive builds just dont work well in the combat style

Last edited by aj0413; 18/08/17 08:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by BraccusaurusRex
Originally Posted by Deadknight
The way I found to play a tank is to have only one point in Warfare, one in Polymorth (for the Armour regen) the rest in geomancer for Fortitute.
He had a 1 handed weapon with poison damage (which get heavily increase by geomancy).

So I placed him far up front so the enemy attack him then I bring the rest of the group moves in range.
If the enemy ignore him and try to run to my back line, they wasted a turn so it's good too.
Then for the rest of the combat he helps with knockbacks or destroy armor/magical armour or giving armour to other party members.

But yeah the defensive abilities, I am unsure, however perseverance if you have 20 you regain all your armor after certain CC so, it's a heavy investment but it might be very strong late game.

However I still have to try it but a 2hander with Necromancy as a secondary spec might be a better tank.
You will attract enemy attacks and you can heal yourself with your attacks (works even through decay) and shackle of pain will either stop enemy to attack you or one of them will take damage (and the drain will work for 50%).


My question is in what scenario would you ever want to invest 20 points in anything? or even 10 for that matter? That's a rediculous amount of lvling just for one skill. This also means that for 20 lvls worth of skill points, you have a character with no offense capabilities who can only recover his magic/physical armor after recovering from a debuff. This doesn't even consider what will happen if he does get focused and killed before he recovers.

Now consider that with putting points into offense, literally 1 point in any skill tree unlocks a whole new set of abilities and gives you bonuses that you can actively use whenever you want. for 20 points, you can learn every skill in the game (assuming lvl 2 is the max requirement for a skill, not including abilities tied to specific companions). even if you put all 20 skill points in any offensive skill, you get a massive bonus that you can actively make use of (ie. 20 aerothurge/warfare +200% damage to magic/physical armor, 20 necromancy heals +200% of damage dealt, etc)

Basically, with how much offense skills give vs defense skills, you'll most likely invest your first 10 lvls of skill points there before even considering investing anything in the defense skills.


all this...passive builds just dont work well in the combat style


There are very few passive skills in-game anyway.

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You can only invest up to 10 points in an ability, though probably can get more from item bonuses. Regardless, leadership is damn good, even with its range deficiency. IMO it's impossible to balance with its current numbers. A 50% damage reduction on all allies within range? No wonder it has to be 5m. It's flat out broken in my bard mod with 8m imo. Sure, it doesn't buff the leader but just make your leader fairly tanky through other means, and you'll be good.

Retribution is very good too, especially on a tank. Hopefully we'll see more ways to direct enemy attacks towards you, but even now, you can accomplish a lot with good positioning.

Perseverance is garbage though. But again, it's kind of a tough thing to balance since if it was too good, it'd make a character extremely tanky and semi-immune to most CC. I think it should have a smaller effect but proc off a far wider set of statuses.

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Originally Posted by Baardvark
You can only invest up to 10 points in an ability, though probably can get more from item bonuses. Regardless, leadership is damn good, even with its range deficiency. IMO it's impossible to balance with its current numbers. A 50% damage reduction on all allies within range? No wonder it has to be 5m. It's flat out broken in my bard mod with 8m imo. Sure, it doesn't buff the leader but just make your leader fairly tanky through other means, and you'll be good.

Retribution is very good too, especially on a tank. Hopefully we'll see more ways to direct enemy attacks towards you, but even now, you can accomplish a lot with good positioning.

Perseverance is garbage though. But again, it's kind of a tough thing to balance since if it was too good, it'd make a character extremely tanky and semi-immune to most CC. I think it should have a smaller effect but proc off a far wider set of statuses.


What kind of team composition do you have where you can make good use of leadership? I'd imagine that since you have to keep everyone together to reap the most benefits, I'd imagine a big issue would be getting flanked constantly and overall having bad positioning in battles.

This could potentially work well if you have everyone be tanky to not get mass cc'ed by a good aoe spells but also alot of range so they don't have to split off from whoever has leadership but also don't benefit from positioning based abilities or sneak as both would be difficult to execute when everyone is in one place etc. There are so many downsides to having everyone grouped up around 1 person that the benefits are hardly worth it.

And all of this assumes you basically max out leadership on one person who probably wont have skill points in anything else until alot later into the game, thus making them kinda useless. They'd basically be a glorified totem that gives a good defensive buff and nothing else. I bring this up because as I mentioned earlier, why would you ever want to invest 10 points in anything when your much better off having a few points in a few things?

Also, perseverance is only used if you have no physical/magic armor and you're recovering from a debuff and chances are, if you're character has no armor left and they're stunned, their probably gonna be dead very soon anyways.

Also, the idea of a bard mod seems great, but ironically I've always kinda hated the idea of having a bard on my team because its almost like having 3 people with better stats instead of 4 people with ok stats, and being down a whole person is too big of a downside only to take less damage.

Last edited by BraccusaurusRex; 19/08/17 03:54 AM.
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You run a brute squad, rogue/rogue/tank+ and just murder targets with impunity. That's what I did a few patches ago.

The dodge (leadership)+dodge (finnesse)+ d.weild parry gets out of hand pretty quick and gear has a lot of resists. It's kind of a boring build though.

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Until you run against a mage heavy group that Cast Oil and fire ball twice xD

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By the way, what is the logic behind Leadership increasing Dodge and Resistances? smile I can understand Initiative or Damage as it was in DOS1...

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It was initiative too in an early patch. Not sure why they took it out. Maybe cause 3 people could ignore wits if one had leadership?

Never ran into the oil issue. I think your basic gear +5 leadership is sufficient to be north of 50% resists. You'd worry about oil on like... the gators and turtle? Heh.

Well, I could see it sucking.

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I'm curious, the decaying ability (healing kills u) + retribution + necromancy.

I'd assume that the retribution effect doesn't reflect the damage that 'heals' you when it begins to kill you instead.

Say you have 500 HP

Are hit for 250 HP, with 10 in Retribution, 20 in Necromancy

You would heal for 250 HP

If you have Decay on you, you would take instead 437.5 damage. (175% of would-be healing as damage; I think it ignores Magic Armor, it does when used on Skeletons/Zombies, and I think it did when I tried to heal Verdas)

Depending on how intelligent the AI is (if it can recognize that you will take damage from that combination), you might be in for a rough gameplay with that sort of build.

Now I hope I would be completely wrong about that, but if not it would be hilarious.

smile

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