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Edit: Ignore most of this post

Please make it so summoning a creature doesn't replace the summons already on the field. When summoning master was pitched it was said we would be able to have multiple summons out at once without replacing a summon that was already out, and I hoping that is the case in the final game. I want to be able to summon a horde of undead creatures to my side without having to spec every single member of my party into summoning. Summoning doesn't feel sustainable without multiple summoners in the party. Honestly considering summons die if the summoner dies I really don't see why we can't have multiple creatures on the field per summoner. I see what Radeka does when her boss fight starts and all I think is "Why can't I do that?".

Add a single target dispel summon spell 15m range costs 1 ap. Add a mass dispel summons skill, has 15m range, costs 3 ap, dispels summons within a 8m radius of the selected target.

Remove the 3 totem cap per character and make totems either have a 0 turn cooldown, or cost 1 ap instead of 2 (I'd prefer the zero turn cooldown because I think that is more interesting). They feel really weak for how random they are, and how easy they are to destroy. Some say their value is in making your opponent waste ap to get rid of them, but often times they'll just be ignored in favor of killing the summoner since all summons die when the summoner does.

Make incarnates 2ap instead of 3. They are really weak, and in order to make them not terrible I have to spend 2 more ap, which means currently I have to spend 5 ap to get a mediocre summon. Atleast if they are 2ap I can buff them up on a single turn without haste or adrenaline.

I'd really like to see roughly 2-3 non incarnate summons of each element, so that if someone wants to play an elemental summoner it will be possible.

I'd like to see 4-5 necromancer esce summons that don't replace each other when you summon them. An undead mage summon, undead warrior summon, undead archer summon, meat golem summon, and a zombie type summon. I know that there is atleast 1 necromancer type summon from kickstarter video #41, but I voted for summoning master because I wanted to play an undead character that was constantly gating in demons, monsters, and zombies.

I find the current summoning tree to be interesting, even though it feels really weak compared to other skill trees, but I can't help but feel a little disappointed that I can't overwhelm my opponents with a large amount of demons and corpses.

Last edited by Damashi; 27/08/17 08:02 PM.
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If we're to have multiple minions (With the exception of totems) They'd have to be so extremely weak that enemies only have to look at them for them to fall over, and having AoE skills oneshot them aswell. Or, they'd be able to tank somewhere along 2 hits and deal near to no damage with how NPC's will interact with them, "wasting" their limited AP pools on several targets.
A summon bloat would mean they would have to be weak, or they would trivialize the game.

Many summons would make playing with a summoner feel really boring the same way playing with a poly rogue would, their turns would take years.


I'm fine with how it works currently, 1 main summon and skills that enhance it, as well as totems that are actually very effective but very squishy.
There is no totem cap. Cooldown is the only limit to multiple totems, this can be seen in certain areas in the game where you can be out of range from a fight and put out totems that immediately enter combat, while you would not. This however, Isn't intentional. You could use the Aero skill that gives you an additional turn and/or skin graft to get more totems, though that wouldn't be ideal.

The weakness in summoners right now is mostly by tuning.

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I currently don't really like the look of the summoned creature you get in the game currently, and how it seems to revolve around summoning differing versions of that one. I wish we could get void monsters and undead.

Last edited by Nivv; 28/08/17 02:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by MoltenMuffin
If we're to have multiple minions (With the exception of totems) They'd have to be so extremely weak that enemies only have to look at them for them to fall over, and having AoE skills oneshot them aswell. Or, they'd be able to tank somewhere along 2 hits and deal near to no damage with how NPC's will interact with them, "wasting" their limited AP pools on several targets.
A summon bloat would mean they would have to be weak, or they would trivialize the game.

Many summons would make playing with a summoner feel really boring the same way playing with a poly rogue would, their turns would take years.

I'm fine with how it works currently, 1 main summon and skills that enhance it, as well as totems that are actually very effective but very squishy.
There is no totem cap. Cooldown is the only limit to multiple totems, this can be seen in certain areas in the game where you can be out of range from a fight and put out totems that immediately enter combat, while you would not. This however, Isn't intentional. You could use the Aero skill that gives you an additional turn and/or skin graft to get more totems, though that wouldn't be ideal.

The weakness in summoners right now is mostly by tuning.


Scrap most of what I said in my initial post because I thought out alot more about what I want out of the Skill Tree. Keep the parts about dispel summon type skills.

I don't mind having multiple weak summons actually. I think that would be fun! My vision is that you would have 1 main summon (the incarnate), the totems for artillery, and multiple weaker summons that don't override the incarnate.

For example summon fire elementals would allow you to summon 3 weaker fire elementals, and you get to place the 3 individually. Then you would have a summon skeleton warriors, which allows you to place 3 skeleton melee fighters individually. These two skills would not override the incarnate, but would override each other, so you can't have both at the same time. There would be 1 triple summon type of each magic school.

I'd also like to see totems or some other type of summon that buffs in an area around it self. Like a healing totem that heals all allied characters near it, or a totem that gives small stat buffs, and totems that gives debuffs like everyone near this totem gets enraged, or everyone near this totem is slowed until its destroyed.

Incarante: soaks 3-4 hits without buffs (5-8 with buffs), can be controlled, meh damage without buffs, ok damage with buffs, scary damage when super charged, has attack of opportunity lasts 10 turns, 5 turn cooldown, 2ap.

Weak Triple Summons: can only eat about 1-2 hits, very low damage, meh damage when super charged can be controlled, only the first placed of the 3 has attack of opportunity, lasts 3 turns, 6 turn cooldown, 2 ap cost.

Artillery Totems: ok damage, targets random enemies, dies in a single hit, lasts 4 turns (instead of the current 3), 2ap no cool down.

Buff/Debuff Totems: buffs allied targets within a 7m radios of itself, debuffs enemies (and depending on the type debuffs allies too) in a 7m radius. Dies in 2 hits 2ap to cast, 3 turn duration, 4 turn cooldown.

The chanter class in pillars of eternity quickly became my favorite class because it allowed you to shoot off really weak summons really quickly to annoy enemies, but you could also send in the big guns with say 2 drakes, or a single giant troll.

I don't believe this revamp will be too strong because A. if the summoner is killed all summons die, so the A.i will tend to focus down the summoner if it thinks attacking the summons just inst worth it (which is what the A.I currently does alot of the time), and B. the A.I will have access to the same skills at the player so it can summon these creatures too on top of also having these dispel skills, so there are multiple ways to get rid of summons.

Right now I feel summoning is kinda dull, but I see alot of potential in what it could be.

Last edited by Damashi; 27/08/17 08:33 PM.
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I really enjoy current summoning school actually. But keep in mind that you haven't seen all of the spells that will be on release.

Now, about triple summon. It would be just too slow(for me) to control 4 summons. And man, i don't want to fight hordes of summons. The idea of 1 summon, which you can adapt is actually pretty good, and has some good potential.

The idea of totems that kinda do their thing is nice, but i would rather see shaman school which would specialize exactly on those(you can really create a lot of different totems, and still it's not like all of the spells should only create totems), but i think that this wouldn't happen, so maybe they will add some different totems for summoner.

About focus summoner. You can dump almost all of your attributes into constitution as summoner(i do), and run with sword\wand and a shield and just soak damage. I think you assume that summoner is very fragile and enemies will easily kill him and get rid of all of the summons you got, but that's not really the case.

Still i expect some buffs for that particular skill tree, because to really start doing something you need 2 rounds, and after those you're kinda on the same level(most of the times even weaker) with other specs in terms of impact on the fight.

Last edited by Darksky; 31/08/17 04:48 PM.
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Summoner is supposed to get more powerful in the endgame.. more powerful demon summons other than just the incarnate.. probably in act 2+ well have more powerful summoning abilities.

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Originally Posted by Adrianna
Summoner is supposed to get more powerful in the endgame.. more powerful demon summons other than just the incarnate.. probably in act 2+ well have more powerful summoning abilities.


When you have 10 in summoning skill in the Alpha version you can already see the big demon version of the incarnate.
He is bugged and his damage are the same as level one but you can see his imposing face and big HP pool.

He's ability damage scale well however.

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Wish i could see it... but im holding off playing it further until release i played it before summoning was even a thing and plan to make my main character a necro/summoner

but i wish i knew what this "big incarnate" looks like im curious.

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I'll post a screenshot later

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Originally Posted by Darksky
I really enjoy current summoning school actually. But keep in mind that you haven't seen all of the spells that will be on release.

Now, about triple summon. It would be just too slow(for me) to control 4 summons. And man, i don't want to fight hordes of summons. The idea of 1 summon, which you can adapt is actually pretty good, and has some good potential.

The idea of totems that kinda do their thing is nice, but i would rather see shaman school which would specialize exactly on those(you can really create a lot of different totems, and still it's not like all of the spells should only create totems), but i think that this wouldn't happen, so maybe they will add some different totems for summoner.

About focus summoner. You can dump almost all of your attributes into constitution as summoner(i do), and run with sword\wand and a shield and just soak damage. I think you assume that summoner is very fragile and enemies will easily kill him and get rid of all of the summons you got, but that's not really the case.

Still i expect some buffs for that particular skill tree, because to really start doing something you need 2 rounds, and after those you're kinda on the same level(most of the times even weaker) with other specs in terms of impact on the fight.


What exactly is it you like about it in the current state?

Well, the summoner can trigger fights over distance, that's a thing. But sadly the only one... and even fully pumped...
Damage? About 10%-15% of a single hit by a normal enemy or a melee party member...
Tanking? 1-2 hits of normal enemies, often by collateral damage
Same goes for totems. Just a tad more damage, but way less HP.
Right now summoning, a mechanic I really love in other games, is something that I actually need to ignore entirely to have fun with the game...

The best solution, imho, would be to combine the aspects that right now are split into summons and totems. In other words, no totems, multiple summons. I'd say +1 from a perk and +1 from a costly buff, maybe split into two schools (necro and summoning for example).
The adaptability of the advocate is a nice idea, I agree, but horribly executed, tbh.
The "long battles by many combatants" is already something the totem idea brings, so nothing additional I would shy from. Plus the main aspect of summoning is to increase numbers and allow for a more tactical approach in the battle. With just one summon as a kind of replacement of the caster it is the same as to take a fighter right up front. And that would also be a lot more powerful...
Right now the summoner has nothing he excels at, sadly not even is on par with other classes.
Heck, not even the "add it up on everything" aspect does work, like it did in D:OS1, because you now need to skill for it. (which is a good thing!)

edit:
Didn't hex in skillpoints, it's interesting to hear it gets an improvement. Would be nice if they become at least adequate later on. Would still leave a bad balancing in the early levels, though...

Last edited by Seelenernter; 01/09/17 12:37 PM.

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Apparently the summons get bonuses from the summoning skill and at certain stages "evolve" and become better.. there are also more summons than just the incarnate.. spiders from geomancy are making a return (shown in video) as well as the fire elementals as confirmed other summons.

and you could use more than 1 of these.. they will not override each other (but will require investment in other magic lines)

the main problem with summoning and the reason most people think it sucks... they invest 1 point into summoning and try it and expect it to be good like all the other 1 point adds (that scale with stats) when summoning does not.. you need much higher levels of summoning for it to be good since it doesnt gain power from int or anything.

Last edited by Adrianna; 01/09/17 09:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Adrianna
Apparently the summons get bonuses from the summoning skill and at certain stages "evolve" and become better.. there are also more summons than just the incarnate.. spiders from geomancy are making a return (shown in video) as well as the fire elementals as confirmed other summons.

and you could use more than 1 of these.. they will not override each other (but will require investment in other magic lines)

the main problem with summoning and the reason most people think it sucks... they invest 1 point into summoning and try it and expect it to be good like all the other 1 point adds (that scale with stats) when summoning does not.. you need much higher levels of summoning for it to be good since it doesnt gain power from int or anything.


I didn't complete my second playthrough (in which i was using summoning) [didnt finish bc i didnt wanna get burned out on release from replaying] but I had a lot of points into summoning...and idk if it was me but it really didnt do much.

I mean I guess it can take a few hits for me? I mean if I wanted that, I should have rerolled a knight and made that into a "summoner" and just went full tank at that point.

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every 10 points in summoning your summons evolve supposedly.. i saw a picture of the max level incarnate (20 summoning) and it was huge like 2-3x the player size.

they apparently get huge boosts at those points and become much tankier.

only problem is i heard its bugged right now.. and after the evolution at level 10 summoning its attack power goes back to what it was at level 1 summoning.. rather than get improved

but i assume that will be fixed in full release.

Last edited by Adrianna; 01/09/17 11:23 PM.
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That is what looks like a level 8 summon with 10 in Summoning (2 at creation +7 from level 8 and +1 from the trait)

Blood infusion his mosquito swarm skill does 65-72 which is pretty high, just compare it with your own mages.
The fire version has a fire ball doing 69 - 83 damages.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....072AE25AE0B225FE93BF275EB8420DE68646BD9/

However, yes his base damage from auto attack or infusion are about 2-3 or 5-6. So pretty much level 1.

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Originally Posted by Deadknight
That is what looks like a level 10 summon with 10 in Summoning (2 at creation +7 from level 8 and +1 from the trait)

Blood infusion his mosquito swarm skill does 65-72 which is pretty high, just compare it with your own mages.
The fire version has a fire ball doing 69 - 83 damages.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....072AE25AE0B225FE93BF275EB8420DE68646BD9/


that version is cool.. i looked around and saw the max level incarnate and its like 2-3x the player size.. level 20 incarnate (max summoning) but i never saw the level 10 one.. looks good.

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Originally Posted by Adrianna
that version is cool.. i looked around and saw the max level incarnate and its like 2-3x the player size.. level 20 incarnate (max summoning) but i never saw the level 10 one.. looks good.


You know you can see it for yourself and check all different elements in the current alpha build if you like wink.

Everybody is a bit scared about the summoner but I never was because I was lucky enough (or stupid) to dump all my points in summoning and see what could lie beyond our grasps laugh

I mean 372 HP 137 armor and magic armor, pretty nice and you don't really care if it dies.

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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
I mean I guess it can take a few hits for me? I mean if I wanted that, I should have rerolled a knight and made that into a "summoner" and just went full tank at that point.


One thing I was considering was to have my support with Hydro/Summoning spec.
Hydro gives better healing and magic shield, doesn't need intelligence *for support skills* and you have a healing that gives shield in summoning.

So I'd rather have a summoner being a mage that also does damage but since it does not require int to have better summons, you are free to explore more diversity in your build.

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Originally Posted by Deadknight
Originally Posted by Adrianna
that version is cool.. i looked around and saw the max level incarnate and its like 2-3x the player size.. level 20 incarnate (max summoning) but i never saw the level 10 one.. looks good.


You know you can see it for yourself and check all different elements in the current alpha build if you like wink.

Everybody is a bit scared about the summoner but I never was because I was lucky enough (or stupid) to dump all my points in summoning and see what could lie beyond our grasps laugh

I mean 372 HP 137 armor and magic armor, pretty nice and you don't really care if it dies.


i was avoiding playing it as i want to experience it myself in the full release.. as im going to main summoner and i know that summoner is weak with only a few points in summoning (but that makes sense) since summons scale off summoning and not other base stats so everyone thinks they all suck cus they dump 1 point into summoning to try it and dont bother with it.


also there are some cool abilities we dont even have yet in act 1.. like the ability to transfer damage we take to our pet that they mentioned.. probably act 2+ ability

not to mention the elemental summons (like earth spiders, fire elementals ect) so combining summoning with a magic school will give you another summon to use. id imagine you would use spellcrafing to merge an elemental ability with the summon ability to make an elemental summon ability... which can then be further improved as there is a video where they merge the spiders with a scoundrel ability and they became ambush spiders.

Last edited by Adrianna; 01/09/17 11:49 PM.
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There are too many things I want to do with my main character I'd probably have to play the game multiple times xD.

Summoner
Dead Knight (Warfare/Necro Undead) to honnor my forum name!
Necromancer (With some pyro for the delicious necro fire)
Maybe a Paladin (Geo/hydro/warfare tanky support)
An Eldritch Assassin (focused on backstab and touch range spells)
A big bad Crit Wizard DPS power house.
A Berserker (2handed warrior maybe mininmal warfare for skills with scoundrel spec just to max out the crit damages)
A regular Assassin or necro assassin.

... and more ideas will come as I learn more about the game.

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an undead death knight would be an interesting idea... using necromancy as healing and slaughtering your enemies might have to try that one next.

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