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My multiclass-glasscannon-mage was fun. Mostly Speed and Con as stats, about 24 AP per turn at the second turn with haste (before EE).

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I am talking EE

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And I'm talking DOS1, EE already had the tendency for dumbing down and reducing freedom, while still leaving the core mechanic flaws unharmed. Tactician was a nice add and still got us bored early.

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Originally Posted by Deadknight
Originally Posted by Veligan
@deadknight
Hardly ? In DOS 1 you could have a lot more than 8 ap even without buff.


A lot more ? Hum no.
8 AP every turn is 9 speed. So if you want a third attack, you need 17 speed. You don't have easily 17 speed without sacrificing your main stat.
So no you DON'T easily have A LOT more ap without buffs, it was a base of 4 ap a turn + 1 every 2 points in speed after the first one.

I am not sure what game you played but that doesn't seem to be the same DOS as the one I played.


Yes, we obviously didn't play the same game.
I don't know if I still have my save game, it has been 3 years. But if I find it, I can take a screenshot as proof.

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Sure a screenshot of the classic edition while I speak of the Enhanced I am sure but feel free.
I can post screenshot as well if you that will really make a difference.

Originally Posted by Kalrakh
There were a methods of lowering costs and cooldowns in D:OS1 depending on your stats, not sure if depending on your skill tree aswell. Same went for normal attacks, you could make them less costexpensive aswell, if I'm not mistaken.


Well in EE you cannot reduce the AP cost with your stats and if you had higher spell cost if was because your skill was too low. But increasing the spec further would not reduce it lower than its base cost.
Normal attack don't get AP reduced by stat nor spec, except for the dual wielding spec which I think is only in the Enhance Edition, which is the dumbed down version as you say?

You also have the trait elemental affinity in EE and DOS 2 reducing the cost of spell by one AP. Guess what? is it much stronger now in DOS 2 because the average spell usually cost 2 ap instead of 5 or 6, making one point less much more efficient.

And even if you have specific setup to cast 10 spells in DOS EE after fully buffed yourself and waited your turns to finally do something; I wasn't saying it was impossible, what I am saying however is in general, every combat round you have about the same amount of action per turn as you previously had.

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I cleary said I was talking about DOS 1, not EE. It's easy to get confused between DOS1 DOS1EE DOS2.

And like Kalrakh I prefer having the freedom to increase my action points pool or not.

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Originally Posted by Veligan
I cleary said I was talking about DOS 1, not EE. It's easy to get confused between DOS1 DOS1EE DOS2.

And like Kalrakh I prefer having the freedom to increase my action points pool or not.


I added more details in my post above.
Well you can like it more there is nothing wrong about it.

My point however is that combat change regarding AP is:
- About the same in terms of action per turn on average.
- You still have ways to increase AP as we have seen skills and traits.
- Who knows maybe there are other ways to increase AP at high level with crazy items or source spells or what not because we have only seen 25% of the game (roughly according to Sven). Although I agree to say we have seen most of the core mechanics, sometimes smalls changes in the end make you really think how you start or build your character.

Now the utility stat is memory, good for me I prefer the memory system in DOS 2 compared to have a limit of skills I can learn in DOS EE.

PS: There are builds with player having 7 or 8 AP then using a source skill to play another turn right after having literally turn worth of 15 or 17 ap with one executioner proc. So AP stacking is still possible it is just no longer a stat that does it, you have to pick your skills carefully.

Last edited by Deadknight; 07/09/17 07:52 AM. Reason: PS
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Originally Posted by Deadknight
Originally Posted by Veligan
I cleary said I was talking about DOS 1, not EE. It's easy to get confused between DOS1 DOS1EE DOS2.

And like Kalrakh I prefer having the freedom to increase my action points pool or not.


I added more details in my post above.
Well you can like it more there is nothing wrong about it.

My point however is that combat change regarding AP is:
- About the same in terms of action per turn on average.
- You still have ways to increase AP as we have seen skills and traits.
- Who knows maybe there are other ways to increase AP at high level with crazy items or source spells or what not because we have only seen 25% of the game (roughly according to Sven). Although I agree to say we have seen most of the core mechanics, sometimes smalls changes in the end make you really think how you start or build your character.

Now the utility stat is memory, good for me I prefer the memory system in DOS 2 compared to have a limit of skills I can learn in DOS EE.

PS: There are builds with player having 7 or 8 AP then using a source skill to play another turn right after having literally turn worth of 15 or 17 ap with one executioner proc. So AP stacking is still possible it is just no longer a stat that does it, you have to pick your skills carefully.


I'm sorry to say, but no, this isn't the case at all, even in EE. Now first let me say, I don't necessarily mind the changes, they're different and all, but your argument that in EE you had the same amount of actions per turn roughly is basically wrong.

It's only correct when considering high AP moves, and even then only to an extent. That generally affects mostly characters that rely on skills a lot, such as mages, but not characters that rely on normal attacks a lot, like most dual wielders(either rogues, warriors with DW or DW wand mages)

I reinstalled EE just to check the numbers since it was like 2years ago, praise fiber it only took a couple minutes.

My endgame rogue is level 21. She has 16dex(10base +6 from gear), which might sound low, however since most of her damage came from backstabs, which aren't affected by dex(only the chance to hit is, and since it's a backstab it's basically 100% chance to hit anyway due to the trait giving 20% chance to hit), it's not particularily a big issue and all her actual skills have 100+% chance to succeed.

Meanwhile she has 23speed(13base, +10 from gear). That gives her 16starting AP and 15AP per turn. She can then gain 2 more AP from Haste and Adrenaline for half of that(so +8 AP). Attacks cost 3AP with dualwield levelled enough. That gives roughly 26AP on the starting turn with Adrenaline, which gives 8 backstabs. I do need some of that AP to move around with Cloak and Dagger and iirc used Daggers Drawn when it was off cd since it was slightly more damage, but that doesn't change the amount of actions(still should be 8 or so).

Now on the other hand, my mages only have 13 and 15starting AP and a lot of spells cost 5-8 AP to cast. The exception are some of the first turn buffs that I dump on my high perception mage on my rogue since he acts first(has some initiative and stuff), like Oath of Desecration(3AP), Wildfire(4AP), Slow current(2AP, for Bully) which still leaves 6AP for another bigger spell. Can also use Soulsap for big monsters(8AP, have to drop Slow Current and cast it with other mages I think).

Mind you, these aren't Lone Wolf characters. My rogue with Lone Wolf would probably get 2 or so more actions per turn between the additional speed and the innate lone wolf bonus. Mage with Lone Wolf would get one more spell off probably.

So yeah, it's a lot less actions per turn, at least on some archetypes. The upside is this might end up maybe not as broken this way. As far as I remember, my rogue killed the last boss in one turn with all these backstabs. Maybe 2, I forgot in EE, I know in the original my Flurry 2H warrior killed it with a bunch of AP left, but that was even more broken I think.

Last edited by PyrosEien; 07/09/17 09:27 AM.
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Yup, compare a fully buffed and geared level 21 rogue to a level 8 character in DOS 2 sounds like about an equal ground yeah ?
You focus on the end game with a level 21 rogue being buffed by your other party while I compare both game at in early to mid game.
Which is what we played and know of DOS 2.

And that is EXACTLY what I said in one of my earlier post:
"You are basically comparing a game you already know all its content and compare it with the first act of this game and draw conclusions."

Not to mention the one handed or dualhanded are the spec that got the most changes from DOS:EE to DOS2 since they now cost as much as a 2 handed weapon, hence the comparison with 2handed wielder previously. That is a specific case.

Then yes, in DOS 2 you can also stack ap to have a bunch of attacks.
Even if you don't have the exact same amount of attacks you could have with your 21 fully buffed rogue, that is not even the debate. I am not saying DOS 2 gives the EXACT same amount of things to do in specific circumstances.

Look up Solo run rogue/warrior build in DOS 2, you'll see they keep stacking ap with skills and have much more they can do per turn if that's what you want.
But now you do it with skills and traits (Pawn, Executioner, Glass Cannon, ...), not with a stat.

Check a DOS2 caster with elemental affinity, if you want ap stacking, have your caster get Adrenaline, and haste for 7 ap then you'll see you can cast 7 normal spells (base cost of 2 reduced by one when standing on corresponding surface). Which is more than your 15 ap mage casting 3 5ap skills or even with 7 cheap 3ap spells (considering elemental affinity as well so only costs 2 instead of 3), ...

So yeah, ... about the same.

Here again comparing at level 8. Who knows, maybe there will be more AP enhancing skills in the full game they already showed there are some.
That is why I compared both game at about the same level. What if you find a legendary dagger making your base attacks cost only 1 ap in DOS 2 ? Sounds stupid ? Great ? It is just unknown. Sometimes a few changes mid to late game make a big big changes in the overall mechanic.
I don't pick examples at very high level because we can't compare level 8 build and gear to end game build and gear !

PS: You want to pick specific cases with 8 Backstab ?

Pick Glass Cannon (start with 6 ap) + Executioner (assuming it procs only once for +2 ap) Have your caster buff your with Haste (+1ap) + add Flesh sacrifice (+1ap) + Adrenaline (+2 AP), you have 12 AP, spend 11 (1 point for Backslash so it's a move and a backstab + 5 regular backstabs so you already have 6 Backstabs) use the last one for the source skill to play an additional turn right after this one, ... You will have your 8 backstabs ...

I am not saying it's easy nor optimal at level 8 but it is there and there is no reason to think it won't be doable (nor easier) to pull off later on.

Last edited by Deadknight; 07/09/17 06:26 PM. Reason: Added PS
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Didn't say it wouldn't get better in D:OS2. You were saying you couldn't get that much AP in D:OS1, then when someone said you could, you said you weren't talking about original and that you couldn't in EE, so I said you could in EE. You could get a lot of AP per turn in EE. That's all. Maybe there will be more ways to add AP in D:OS2 and maybe the ways will add up to a lot of actions per turn. It looks more limited to me but we haven't seen the launch reworked stuff so it's hard to tell.

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Originally Posted by PyrosEien
Didn't say it wouldn't get better in D:OS2. You were saying you couldn't get that much AP in D:OS1, then when someone said you could, you said you weren't talking about original and that you couldn't in EE, so I said you could in EE. You could get a lot of AP per turn in EE. That's all. Maybe there will be more ways to add AP in D:OS2 and maybe the ways will add up to a lot of actions per turn. It looks more limited to me but we haven't seen the launch reworked stuff so it's hard to tell.


Yeah I said that comparing both game at equal levels so 8 in DOS2 ? How much is it in DOS:EE ? Level 10 when you finish act one ? give or take one level.
And we were picking the 2H Warrior specifically because his attack ap costs is more easily translated to DOS2 for comparison (even numbers).

Check again how many actions you have at equal levels in both game. That is all I was saying but everyone keep replying: "Yes but in the end game I could do XYZ"
Comparing the awesome late game build in DOS1 with the level 8 guy in DOS2.
Maybe I didn't make it clear enough but to me when you compare 2 things, you try to have them on equal ground.

Guess what, none of us have seen DOS2 end game.
And again I was talking in general for most characters, if you want to go specific build, that is different but even then, you can do the same in DOS2 and still have about the same amount of actions.

Now, I am not here to say that the older system or this one is inherently better (I actually prefer this one but that's not really the point) or worse it is just I strongly disagree when other players say they have less choice of less actions to do a turn.

PS: And to give credits to players disagreeing with me, Yes, I also do believe that the current progression system is less about how many actions you have a turn and more about how many skills you have at your disposal. But overall I think for most of the game you have about the same with proper build (Elemental affinity, Executioner, etc)

Last edited by Deadknight; 07/09/17 11:06 PM. Reason: Added PS
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Originally Posted by Deadknight
Originally Posted by PyrosEien
Didn't say it wouldn't get better in D:OS2. You were saying you couldn't get that much AP in D:OS1, then when someone said you could, you said you weren't talking about original and that you couldn't in EE, so I said you could in EE. You could get a lot of AP per turn in EE. That's all. Maybe there will be more ways to add AP in D:OS2 and maybe the ways will add up to a lot of actions per turn. It looks more limited to me but we haven't seen the launch reworked stuff so it's hard to tell.


Yeah I said that comparing both game at equal levels so 8 in DOS2 ? How much is it in DOS:EE ? Level 10 when you finish act one ? give or take one level.
And we were picking the 2H Warrior specifically because his attack ap costs is more easily translated to DOS2 for comparison (even numbers).

Check again how many actions you have at equal levels in both game. That is all I was saying but everyone keep replying: "Yes but in the end game I could do XYZ"
Comparing the awesome late game build in DOS1 with the level 8 guy in DOS2.
Maybe I didn't make it clear enough but to me when you compare 2 things, you try to have them on equal ground.

Guess what, none of us have seen DOS2 end game.
And again I was talking in general for most characters, if you want to go specific build, that is different but even then, you can do the same in DOS2 and still have about the same amount of actions.

Now, I am not here to say that the older system or this one is inherently better (I actually prefer this one but that's not really the point) or worse it is just I strongly disagree when other players say they have less choice of less actions to do a turn.

PS: And to give credits to players disagreeing with me, Yes, I also do believe that the current progression system is less about how many actions you have a turn and more about how many skills you have at your disposal. But overall I think for most of the game you have about the same with proper build (Elemental affinity, Executioner, etc)


Oh come on now you say you were talking about low level only.
Divinity 1 had an attribute to increase AP. Just with that it allowed more choice for combat as you could either focus on having more actions or dealing more with each actions during combat. You can't do that in DOS2. You talking about low level is just a bad excuse, we already know there's is no such system, low level, mid level, end game. Yes you can use skill to increase ap in DOS2, but you could do the same in DOS1.




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Originally Posted by Veligan
Oh come on now you say you were talking about low level only.
Divinity 1 had an attribute to increase AP. Just with that it allowed more choice for combat as you could either focus on having more actions or dealing more with each actions during combat. You can't do that in DOS2. You talking about low level is just a bad excuse, we already know there's is no such system, low level, mid level, end game.


You just read wrong or do it on purpose?
In one of my first post I said you guys are comparing your end game of DOS with with game and you replied "Stop saying we don't know anything about DOS2."
You really have to stop forgetting what's convenient for you.

Then I never said the core mechanics will change at higher level, what I said is, as you gain levels and discover new items or skills, those might give you bonuses in area you could not have before and change your perspective.
I never said the game's core mechanics will have a different system later you are just delusional.

Example in DOS1: I have found boots giving me +1 action point a turn at level 15. Try finding that in act one. Good luck. Same in DOS2 maybe late game you could find item with that kind of bonuses...

In DOS1 Tenebrium is only available later on. Again you don't have that in act 1. Yeah I already hear you say but Tenebrium has no affect on my speed and action points!
What I say is, it's another part of the game not available to you earlier. Not all the game's content (in terms of bonuses or ways to build your) is revealed to you in act 1.

As you advance the game you will find new things that can change the way to see the game or build your characters.
And my point is before saying before saying "this game is dumbed down" and "I don't have enough freedom compared to DOS" try and see more of the game.

Now the thread is becoming too long for nothing. You don't like it fine, I just don't get why to compare a fully released game with act 1 of this one.

Enjoy bye!


PS:
Originally Posted by Veligan
Yes you can use skill to increase ap in DOS2, but you could do the same in DOS1.


What is it you don't understand? I never said you could not do it in DOS. All I am saying is if you want to stack AP to have 8 backstab you can do it in DOS2 too to have the same amount of actions.

You are simply a troll there is no point in replying.

Last edited by Deadknight; 09/09/17 06:49 PM. Reason: PS
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Originally Posted by Deadknight

My point however is that combat change regarding AP is:
- About the same in terms of action per turn on average.


Originally Posted by Deadknight

All I am saying is if you want to stack AP to have 8 backstab you can do it in DOS2 too to have the same amount of actions.


Like i said, you had skill and item to increase ap in DOS1 AND you had way to gain action points with attributes. You have way to gain actions points with skill in DOS 2 but you DON'T have way to gain with attributes. Therefore you will have less average AP in DOS2. You see a logic here or you're too busy calling people troll ?

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Originally Posted by Veligan
Like i said, you had skill and item to increase ap in DOS1 AND you had way to gain action points with attributes. You have way to gain actions points with skill in DOS 2 but you DON'T have way to gain with attributes. Therefore you will have less average AP in DOS2. You see a logic here or you're too busy calling people troll ?


If you want to understand my point you'll have to read it carefully again.

I don't say you have as much AP I say, in average you have as much ACTION a turn and if you build for, you could also have the about the same crazy super high AP build like in the first one. You clearly can't read what you just quote me on!
You have less points, but actions also cost less. You want more action points now it's all made with skills, trait and potentially items, we don't know yet.

Your argument is: "I no longer have speed therefore I can't do as much." But it's wrong.
If that's high AP you want you can build for it in DOS2 with skills and trait, it is just no longer with stats.

I'll copy paste the same example I gave above:
Pick Glass Cannon (start with 6 ap) + Executioner (assuming it procs only once for +2 ap) cast Haste (+1ap) + add Flesh sacrifice (+1ap) + Adrenaline (+2 AP), you have 12 AP.
And add to that the source skill to play another turn right after...
I am not even talking about caster with elemental affinity. Most spells cost 2AP, this trait reduce AP by one. This is a much greater bonus in DOS2 than elemental affinity in DOS:EE (-1 out of a spell cost 6 or 11 ap, ... not that great).

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That's funny, you post changed a lot when I started to reply. Let's forget what you said in first place...

So :

Pick Glass Cannon (start with 6 ap) + Executioner (assuming it procs only once for +2 ap) cast Haste (+1ap) + add Flesh sacrifice (+1ap) + Adrenaline (+2 AP), you have 12 AP.

First thing, in one of you previous post you mentionned AVERAGE action per turn. Not one tricky combo burst.
Then, adrenaline gives 2 ap one round, but - 2 the other one. So it's not really a good example. But the rest, yes. You could even have spell that cost less with elemental affinity. But if you did actually read my post you would knew that none of that matter because you could do the same thing in DOS 1. AND you had attribute to gain action point, which gives you even more actions to do for each turn.

Edit : God damned you edit it again. This post was for your second edit.

Last edited by Veligan; 09/09/17 10:11 PM. Reason: See edit part
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Originally Posted by Veligan
But if you did actually read my post you would knew that none of that matter because you could do the same thing in DOS 1. AND you had attribute to gain action point, which gives you even more actions to do for each turn.


Didn't know you were in the middle of replying.

THAT IS MY POINT WHEN YOU SAY YOU CAN DO IT IN DOS1!
All I say is DOS2 also gives you the ability to do it just like in the first one, even if it is not with stats. You can increase the amount of AP you can have the same average amount of actions!
I don't get why the stat is so important if in the end you have as much freedom in how you build your character and have about the same amount of actions.

Now even if you want to get a regular warrior you only pick Executioner.
That still gives you 7 ap with haste.
So you cast haste for free. 1 action
You charge. 1 action
get 3 attacks (skill or not) 3 actions.
5 Actions a turn.

DOS 1 would be
You cast haste. one action 2 ap (rogue haste if you don't have 8 dex it might fail too so...)
You charge. 1 action 4 ap
Get 3 attacks. 3 actions 12 ap
18 ap required. 5 Actions as well.

To me both games are pretty similar in term of actions per turn even when you don't go crazy in boosting one character to have crazy AP.

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Yes, but my point wasn't about if we can do this in DOS 2 or not. In both DOS1 and DOS2 you have haste, executionner, elemental affinity, or equivalent. But in DOS 1 you also had speed attribute to increase ap. This is why I say that you had more action in DOS 1 than DOS 2 if you build speed oriented (at the cost of dmg). But you can't do that in DOS 2.
So, like some other people in this post, I think putting attributes was more tactical in DOS1. Either dmg or actions. Now you just want to max your primary attribute.

Edit : Stop editing :'(

Last edited by Veligan; 09/09/17 10:49 PM. Reason: See edit part
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Originally Posted by Veligan
Yes, but my point wasn't about if we can do this in DOS 2 or not. In both DOS1 and DOS2 you have haste, executionner, elemental affinity, or equivalent[...]

Edit : Stop editing :'(


Ok first, I don't think there is executioner and pawn or even as much AP enhancing traits in DOS1.
Yes DOS1 has some, DOS2 has more (those 2 for examples) and some are even more potent because the reduced cost makes the existing one elemental affinity more potent in DOS2.
And I suspect there will also me more (maybe, ... I hope) in release.

So, to me, removing the stat isn't such a problem since they made more trait to compensate for it, AND many spells have been reduced in cost, charge cost only 1 ap instead of as much as a 2h attack! (some are free, I don't recall free spells in DOS1 except for adrenaline).
AND in terms of action a turn even when not going crazy in AP stacking I still think you can do about the same.
AND you can go crazy ap build too.

PS:
DOS1 Has:
Lone Wolf
What a Rush (Very situational, less than 30% hp to proc.)
Elemental affinity
Glass Cannon

DOS2 has:
Lone Wolf (have yet to see what it does however)
What a Rush (Which is even better now I think)
Elemental affinity (Which is stronger now with the lower costs)
Glass Cannon
Executionner
The Pawn

Last edited by Deadknight; 10/09/17 12:35 AM. Reason: Oops I did it again!
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The versatility stat is now Memory. It's either you know a few spell and are very strong with them or you know a bunch and can adapt in many situation but don't do as much damages.
You can have your support glass cannon + Elemental affinity and with a ton of spells maxing out memory to have all buffs and heals possible and casting a ton of spells a turn.

And more powerful spells do cost more than one memory as you know so you'll always have to make that choice with your DPS character sometimes. Do I get more memory or more power?

I don't say it is the same as DOS1 but I don't think this single shift of stat is enough to make the game nor the stat distribution less tactical.

Not to mention speed was "almost" too strong since it was:
Increasing AP
Increasing how far you move per ap
Increasing initiative
So you would just get 15 in your main stat for the chance to hit or CD reduction then put the rest in speed.
Only mage would maybe consider increasing int further for damage or the tank would get 7 in base constitution but most of the time it was speed all the way after the main stat because it was so good.
-So I never considered putting stat in DOS1 as a strong tactical choice-

And that also goes back to what I meant with don't compare how tactically you would put point in DOS1 and DOS2.
DOS1 you already know you only need 15 Strength or Dex the rest you can put whatever.
In DOS2 as long as we don't really have any ideas of specific definite builds in the late game we are clueless. So before we call out the game being dumb down, not tactical, with no freedom, I'll play it to the end and see if I want to start anew.

With all the possible specializations, I think I'll start over many times.

Last edited by Deadknight; 10/09/17 12:50 AM. Reason: Oops I did it again!
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