Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Sep 2017
C
stranger
OP Offline
stranger
C
Joined: Sep 2017
There's a lot I don't know about higher levels and end-game. So can someone explain this to me:

What keeps everyone from dumping most of their combat ability points into Polymorph? Upping your primary combat stat seems a better way to get +5% damage for everything you use, as opposed to spending combat ability points to get +5% for just a specific discipline.

Someone crack an egg of knowledge on me here.

Last edited by Chiggins; 15/09/17 10:42 AM.
Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
From what I notice during Beta, the game extra bonus stack multiplicative.

And +5% per point gets weaker as you add more into it. For example, 20 str is +50% but 30 str is +100%

Going from 100 damage to 150 damage, you get +50% damage increase
But going from 150 damage to 200, that's only 33%.

And it gets lower as you get it even higher.

On the other hand, with 150 damage and +50% from something like warfare, you now deal 225 instead.

Last edited by Ellezard; 15/09/17 10:46 AM.
Joined: Sep 2017
C
stranger
OP Offline
stranger
C
Joined: Sep 2017
Ah. I getcha. So +10 Str and +10 warfare is better than +20 Str or +20 warfare

Still, wouldn't maximum damage then always come from making sure your primary combat attribute and your primary combat ability are equal?

I miss the passives bonuses from early access - it seemed like there were more interesting choices. Now, it seems like there's always one definitive answer for how to maximize damage output. Still seems like everyone will take a truckload of Polymorph, just to make sure their attribute and ability numbers match.

Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
There's more than just Str and Warfare when it comes to damage. Don't forget that weapon talent are there too with archers also having Huntsman high ground bonus to think about.

Joined: Sep 2017
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Sep 2017
yeah i dont even bother with polly.. knockdown and such much better.. i dont understand why people dont go 4 mages.. or 3 mages and 1 tank seems godamn op too just blast aoe all over-

Joined: Aug 2017
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Aug 2017
My only gripe with "high ground" damage is that it's still only 5% increases when everything else is 5% without relying on high ground. I think maybe it deserves 6 or 6.5% instead of 5%. My 0.02c.

Edit: As far as poly, I think each character should get level 1 just for the skills it supports. Being able to fly/hover while moving/skin graft are great skills. But repeated investments aren't necessary unless you're specifically building a shapeshifter

Last edited by ExecutiveCivic; 15/09/17 11:11 AM.

In my line of work, it's never a quiet day on the market.
Joined: Jul 2017
C
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
C
Joined: Jul 2017
Originally Posted by ExecutiveCivic
My only gripe with "high ground" damage is that it's still only 5% increases when everything else is 5% without relying on high ground. I think maybe it deserves 6 or 6.5% instead of 5%. My 0.02c.

Edit: As far as poly, I think each character should get level 1 just for the skills it supports. Being able to fly/hover while moving/skin graft are great skills. But repeated investments aren't necessary unless you're specifically building a shapeshifter


i dont think you can get skingraft anymore? havent seen any in act 1. Also it is heavily nerfed

Joined: Aug 2017
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Aug 2017
Originally Posted by Cyka

i dont think you can get skingraft anymore? havent seen any in act 1. Also it is heavily nerfed


That may certainly be the case as I've yet to see it either.

(It was definitely a very powerful skill.)


In my line of work, it's never a quiet day on the market.
Joined: Sep 2017
C
stranger
OP Offline
stranger
C
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Ellezard
There's more than just Str and Warfare when it comes to damage. Don't forget that weapon talent are there too with archers also having Huntsman high ground bonus to think about.


Yeah, I get that. I still think my point stands - that all things being equal (in this example - for a fighter,) a point into Str gets you +weapon *and* +skill damage. Since characters are going to have to spend points on Con/Mem/Wit - Poly becomes a default high-priority addition to *every* build.

*Unless* there's something I don't understand. Like: after 10 points, attribute dmg bonus stops being 5%. Or maybe, after 10 points, combat abilities start offering 5% dmg *and* something else too. Or maybe, 3 memory slot skills *require* you to have some high number invested in a particular discipline before you can even read the book.

That's what I'm curious about. Maybe it's too early for anyone to know the answer. I'd like to know, so I can start pumping up the skills if I need to. If not, might as well plow up a bunch of Polymorph for everyone just so we can reap the advantages of crazy high combat stats.

Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
Like I say, it's multiplicative.

You don't deal 100 + Str*5 + Warfare*5 + Weapon*5 for physical damage

You deal 100 * (1+Str/20) * (1+Warfare/20) + (1+Weapon/20)

So let's say you have 2 points to use and Str is at +2

You get both poly, it becomes 4 str

100 * 1.2 = 120 damage

Let's say you use that 2 points, 1 in Warfare and 1 in Weapon

You get 100 * 1.1 * 1.05 * 1.05 = 121.275 damage instead along with the secondary weapon bonus like crit chance.

So if you invest in just Poly, you deal way less damage, has less benefit and also, with skills having skill point requirement now (Like Teleport now requires Aero 2), Poly will just result in less skill being usable as well.

And no

Con sucks. Perma CC > bloated health.
Wit is bleh now. No longer does Ini give your whole team action. You and enemy team always take turn from highest ini to lower ini. Your whole team can have 1000 ini but only one of you will get to act before an enemy does too.
And MEM isn't that useful because you gain it as you level anyway along with gears. It used to be a thing with mage who can do everything but with the extra skill point requirement, you can no longer just dump 1 point into each magic school and have all the useful spells.


Joined: Sep 2017
L
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
L
Joined: Sep 2017
Skin Graft is now a source skill...

Strength for example gives a benefit to ALL skills that scale based on strength, and there are actions that require a certain Strength value to open (or conversely, a telepathic value).

Warfare unlocks new skills, and gives a bonus power based on that (increased damage to physical damage, bonus to restored physical armor, etc.).

Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Denmark
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by ExecutiveCivic
My only gripe with "high ground" damage is that it's still only 5% increases when everything else is 5% without relying on high ground. I think maybe it deserves 6 or 6.5% instead of 5%. My 0.02c.

Edit: As far as poly, I think each character should get level 1 just for the skills it supports. Being able to fly/hover while moving/skin graft are great skills. But repeated investments aren't necessary unless you're specifically building a shapeshifter

I agree. I felt that in the EA version it was nicely balanced between constant 5% bonuses or situational 10% bonuses. Now it seems they just went with the safe and boring route where everything gets the same bonuses.

Joined: Jun 2017
V
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
V
Joined: Jun 2017
Originally Posted by Ellezard

So let's say you have 2 points to use and Str is at +2

Let's say you use that 2 points, 1 in Warfare and 1 in Weapon

You get 100 * 1.1 * 1.05 * 1.05 = 121.275 damage instead along with the secondary weapon bonus like crit chance.




This is not how it works.
The correct formula is :

Weapon damage x weapon skill x (strength + warfare)

With a mace with 35 dmg base, 30 strength (+100%), 10 warfare (50%) and 10 in 2handed (50%), it gives :

35 x 1.5 x (50% + 100%)
35 x 1.5 x 2.5 = 131.5 (which gives 132 dmg in tooltip)



Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
Originally Posted by Veligan

This is not how it works.
The correct formula is :

Weapon damage x weapon skill x (strength + warfare)

With a mace with 35 dmg base, 30 strength (+100%), 10 warfare (50%) and 10 in 2handed (50%), it gives :

35 x 1.5 x (50% + 100%)
35 x 1.5 x 2.5 = 131.5 (which gives 132 dmg in tooltip)




Went and tested in GM mode.

The stat of Warfare and Ranged is directly shown on your weapon damage when you increase it.

The final damage is weapon damage * (1 + stat *0.5 + weapon talent) * (Warfare/Magic multiplier)

So

100 ranged weapon damage
30 dex 100% damage
10 warfare 50% Physical
10 ranged 50% ranged

gives

100 * ( 1+1 (dex) + 0.5 (ranged) ) * (1 +0.5 (warfare)) = 375 damage

So in a way, weapon talent are actually just increasing dex/str with extra stat bonus. Highest damage will have you go for 10 warfare first on any physical damager

The final damage multiplier (crit, highground) stack additively.

Haven't tested magic.

Joined: Sep 2017
G
stranger
Offline
stranger
G
Joined: Sep 2017
Magic seems to work the same. Lone wolf with +10 Warfare doubles Necromancer damage as well. Which actually results in Necromancer being BY FAR the highest possible damage sources in the game, due to 1) no physical resists, and 2) great base damage which scales with both int and warfare. That such damage can eventually heal for double the damage dealt and you can be completely immune to death while dealing double your already high base damage to enemies with abilities also in the Necromancer tree just further swings things out of proportion.

Joined: Oct 2016
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2016
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Originally Posted by Veligan

This is not how it works.
The correct formula is :

Weapon damage x weapon skill x (strength + warfare)

With a mace with 35 dmg base, 30 strength (+100%), 10 warfare (50%) and 10 in 2handed (50%), it gives :

35 x 1.5 x (50% + 100%)
35 x 1.5 x 2.5 = 131.5 (which gives 132 dmg in tooltip)




Went and tested in GM mode.

The stat of Warfare and Ranged is directly shown on your weapon damage when you increase it.

The final damage is weapon damage * (1 + stat *0.5 + weapon talent) * (Warfare/Magic multiplier)

So

100 ranged weapon damage
30 dex 100% damage
10 warfare 50% Physical
10 ranged 50% ranged

gives

100 * ( 1+1 (dex) + 0.5 (ranged) ) * (1 +0.5 (warfare)) = 375 damage

So in a way, weapon talent are actually just increasing dex/str with extra stat bonus. Highest damage will have you go for 10 warfare first on any physical damager

The final damage multiplier (crit, highground) stack additively.

Haven't tested magic.


I can confirm the findings that Stat+Weapon Skill are additive together and multiplicative with Warfare.

One more thing, the rounding is very generous.

The base weapon damage is rounded up to the nearest integer after multiplying each time.
For example, my Crossbow does 12 listed base max damage with 24 Finesse (+70%) , 2 Ranged(+10%), and 2 Warfare(*1.1).
We get:
12 * 1.8 = 21.6, rounds to 22.
22 * 1.1 = 24.2, rounds to 25.
This matches the in-game tooltip of 25.
W/o rounding we'd only have 12*1.8*1.1 = 23.76, which is wrong even if rounded to 24.

The take-away from this math is that weapon ability passives should not be taken before Skill passives.
Stack the stat you want and the Skill passive to max before investing in any weapon ability points.
This seems like a bad design because the Skill points also allow you to learn high level skills and don't restrict the user to a single weapon type.

Last edited by error3; 15/09/17 09:32 PM.
Joined: Jun 2017
V
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
V
Joined: Jun 2017
I've noticed that too, the rounding is generous. But I won't complain about it.

For other magic it seems to be :
Base damage(increase by level) * int mod * magic mod (pyro or warfare)

For physical it's :
Weapon dmg * (strength + weapon ability (2hand or ranged) ) * warfare
I'm not sure how huntsman adds from here.

Necromancy is the only magic worth taking. But it still does not compare (by far) to what a hunter can deal.
And some of the skill of necromancy need to have body around, or blood. But if you have a lot, it become insane with the source point skill.

I kinda want to play inquisitor, but having to split int and strength is meh.

Joined: Sep 2017
G
stranger
Offline
stranger
G
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Veligan

Necromancy is the only magic worth taking. But it still does not compare (by far) to what a hunter can deal.
And some of the skill of necromancy need to have body around, or blood. But if you have a lot, it become insane with the source point skill.



I've not observed this to be the case. What setup are you using with a hunter to where you are so drastically outdamaging that which for example necromatic magic provides?

Joined: Jun 2017
V
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
V
Joined: Jun 2017
I'm using game master mode.
Character level 10, with a weapon lvl 10 runed (for hunter the crossbow was dealing : 40-44 base). 36 in their main attribut. 10 ranged, warfare, necromancy.
I managed to deal up to 350 dmg on one target with hunter. Necromancy spell are very far from it. 150 dmg at best on one target. Hunter can also hit several target with other ability, or cripple the enemy.


Joined: Dec 2016
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2016
Damage wise, Necromancy will never compete with warfare simple because those physical attack scale with weapon along with all the stats and skills. Necormancy doesn't.

The one thing that makes necromancy ridiculous OP though is "Death Wish". That's probably the strongest steroid in the game now if you're below half health and you can completely negate the damage effect with recovery. You can just give it to your ranger at the start of the fight (Drop his health to half first. He's not at risk anyway if he positions himself really far away) and watch as he completely assassinate a single enemy in one go.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5