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You are so bad I honestly have no words :DD

We know how chance effects work. And as whole they create statistic, but at single instance level, they are absolutely random. When you pair 4 random events, it is still random. Only on infinite amount of instances it is now statistic, but that doesnt really happen in game where most fights take 10-20 turns.

What 65% chance means is that I was supposed to hit 2 or 3 of those 4 spells - RANDOM CHANCE decided I won´t and because random functions before that situation led me to state where I had one DD already dead, second incapacitated and third missed 4 times, I wiped.
And in turn based combat, boss IS STATIC SCULPTURE as long as it is my turn. WTF is wrong with you lol.

And of course it is very rare - but that doesn´t really help you if you can´t reload :P And this game has honor mode aswell, and it shouldn´t punish you because RNG decides to fuck you up.

And no, I played the same party, same difficulty, same composition again, and I killed brachus no problem at second attempt - simply because one of my CC spells randomly procced twice in row even against his defenses, I won without even losing as much as half of my HP.

So same tactics, same compositions, similar gear, same fight and difficulty - one wipe, 1 CLEAR victory, all based on some RNG. Nope, thx, pass.

Of course this proves nothing.. but it also doesnt help anything to have RNG, especially game winning/losing RNG, thats the fucking point. And more you minimize that, the better

Oh and we were sarcastic before.

Last edited by TsunAmik; 22/09/17 12:50 PM.
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And in turn based combat, boss IS STATIC SCULPTURE as long as it is my turn.


lol, there he goes and proves me right.
You are the biggest dumbfuck on these forums.

A retarded dumb scum with shit for brains and a laughable ignorant idiot.


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oh, that hurts... now for some argument?

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That was the argument you incredible idiot, you lost it by directly showing you have no idea how TB systems work. Or how RPG games basic mechanics work.

In old school RPGs, especially those which have TB systems each character has offense and defense stats. When enemies have their turn and attack, your character defends with his defense skills and stats. When you attack enemy defends with their defensive skills and stats.

Ergo, you are a complete cretinous imbecile.

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OH NO SHIT, and WHAT do you think that 65 percent CHANCE TO HIT WAS? Isn´t it whole manifestation of attack and defense skills? Jesus christ... At that moment, when this number is ALREADY CALCULATED, enemy is just recipient of my turn, nothing more. Just static sculpture with predetermined stats by previous turns. Thats how TB works.

Seriously go checkup on yourself lul

Last edited by TsunAmik; 22/09/17 12:49 PM.
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No, thats how complete imbeciles like you think the Tb works.
Because only a complete imbecile expects that 65% chance to hit will hit everytime.

And because those 65% are your chance to hit. Not the enemy defensive stats and skills.

The result is only calculated when you attack not in advance because the game does not know which of your skills and options for attack you will use - at which point the enemy defends - and you miss because you are a retarded ignorant dumbfuck.

And the next time you tried you succeeded because the enemy did not successfully defend, dodge or whatever his defense skills and stats allowed.

you laughable imbecile.

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You are extremely wrong - when you hover over your enemy, you see precalculated hitchance, that is not MY hit chance, it was overall number, thats how it works in DOSEE. That means, that 65% hit chance, is MY HIT CHANCE versus enemy dodge, and that number is final. This is my chance to hit to this particular enemy, and he has way of influencing that further.

And jesus christ, when did I stated I would expect 65% to hit everytime? You can´t read or what? The bad part of that, was that 4 IN ROW missed. Not one, not two, not 3, 4 in row missed on FINAL 65%. Thats what RNG does in game, it does it in all games. Its unpredictable and can screw you over extremely hard, which does not play well with hardcore modes and such.

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Originally Posted by Ellezard
Unpredictable element in battles come from your enemy taking actions, not from RNG where you go into a fight with a half loaded revolver, expecting it to be a russian roulette.

We're talking about adding a part of unpredictability to the order of people taking action, so your argument that RNG would replace taking action makes no sense.

Originally Posted by TsunAmik
And jesus christ, when did I stated I would expect 65% to hit everytime? You can´t read or what? The bad part of that, was that 4 IN ROW missed. Not one, not two, not 3, 4 in row missed on FINAL 65%. Thats what RNG does in game, it does it in all games. Its unpredictable and can screw you over extremely hard, which does not play well with hardcore modes and such.

Yes it's unpredictable, and that's the point. Unpredictability means you're forced to plan for contingency in case your plan doesn't work - THAT is also what tactics are about.
Aren't you the guys complaining that things are too easy ? But opposing what could throw a spanner in your plans ? That doesn't compute very well.

Last edited by Akka; 22/09/17 01:17 PM.
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Besides the element of surprise (= you have the first shots) is a valid tactical concept.

Also, you are arguing to keep teleport in the game because it opens up tactical options. Yeah sure. And initiative doesn't? What is worse, removing an entire tier of strategy considerations (options vs. power, both on the battlefield and in character builds) from the game, or simply making teleport affect friendlies and inanimate objects only?

Teleport should never ever have had an offensive use. It leads to a myriad of problems, as we can see here: initiative borked, random 'grounded' attributes, etc. Creating surfaces etc. is easy (and tactical!) enough, you should never have been able to vacuum entire enemy armies in for splortching them with AoE nukes.

P.S./Edit: That said, actually, why not? Heretical concept, I know, but imagine a party of four highly-trained, dedicated mages on an actual battlefield (err... I mean imagined actual non-game battlefield... *cough*). They'd set up deadly combos exactly as above, playing to their strengths. Of course they'd wipe the floor with enemy armies. It'd probably be pretty boring to play barring unforeseen wrenches in the gear but if you *want* to play that way, who are we to decide you aren't allowed to? The only issue I can see is that teleport may be available for too little investment, you should have to invest deeply into mageing to be able to set up such magic traps, not just dump 2 points somewhere and start vacuuming. E.g. teleport with aero 2: teleport inanimate objects. Aero 4: teleport friendlies. Aero 6: teleport enemies with no magic armor. Aero 10: teleport any enemy.

Last edited by Terodil; 22/09/17 01:38 PM.
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In the Alpha, I suggested that Teleport should cost 4 AP to use. That would have usually made it the only thing someone could do on their turn, and would have prevented the "stack 4 Teleports and move 4 enemies at once" strategy from being very effective.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
In the Alpha, I suggested that Teleport should cost 4 AP to use. That would have usually made it the only thing someone could do on their turn, and would have prevented the "stack 4 Teleports and move 4 enemies at once" strategy from being very effective.


Or that, yeah. Wish they had listened and left initiative be instead...

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Keep it friendly and polite, guys. Nobody wants to see personal insults being thrown around.


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What sort of contingency plan do people expect in a turn-based game? It's not real time. There's no "IF whiff, immediately dodge back and do it again". You either hit and deal damage or miss and lose AP.

Turn-based is already considered to be extremely casual as the only difficult the game has come from lack of information. Trying to add RNG does not add any complexity and challenge to it.

And people keep forgetting the game has wombo combo when they want old ini back. Anything with uninterruptable wombo combo is NEVER complex. IF you can do the combo, you win. It's a game where there's only one side playing the game and the AI never exists. The game ends up having to force rng into any turn-base combo game that just hope that by pure luck, you fail.

This keeps going in circle.

Wombo combo ruins tactical depth -> Lol nerf teleport then -> Then enemies get focus fire and die too fast, brute forced with no creativity -> Make them tanky enough or make you miss -> Then go play tactician -> lol that mode is bloated and has no tactic -> Then we make it so everything takes turn so there's no need to triple the stat -> Lol old INI is better -> wombo combo ruins tactical depth

Funny enough, Larian recent change pretty much ignored the whining. They went and nerfed the players using reactive shield to make the game even harder with the extra AP and turn cost that will mainly affect players.

Last edited by Ellezard; 22/09/17 02:43 PM.
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And to be honest, i more believe larian to know what they are doing, as they have some damn good results... just watch the reviews, user reviews and overall sales...

I mean there are some OBVIOUS misshaps, useless talents, some broken talents, and lack of attribute diversity (but overall diversity easily overshadows that issue), but these are all basically minor details... main thing is that game is playable on all difficulties and its fun, while keeping your possibilities near endless. All the little things will be probably fixed overtime, or we will mby get new EE when console version releases like they did in DOS1? smile THAT would be cool, with new proper tactician mode! (Because its not possible to do real tactician mode on release - they could make tactician because they studied common players strategies and specifically made them invalid in tactician - cant do that when nobody even invented those strategies!) smile

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To be honest, if they plan to go this way all to the end, they should nerf bosses.
Most of their skill cost 1 AP OR they have 6 ap at start. Coping with monster damage at tactician level, boss who go 2nd (always) or 1st (most of the time) will decimate one of my companion.
Low point in con = fuck you in this kind of init way. And bosses can blink, one hit, cast curse/etc, one more hit and one of my team is dead as void tainted fish.
Enemy break rules in this mode so i dislike this kind of change to init.

Last edited by Violet Gekko; 22/09/17 04:48 PM.
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Boss need to be that powerful because defensive skills are just as power as the boss skills. Every type of bosses will have a certain counter to them you can use and completely prevent them from doing much unless it's a really long and exhausting fight one like Adrablahlbahlah (not gonna spoil the name)

If they are physical attackers (Looks like a monster or fighter) : Use Evasive aura, source orb in a necklace slot of Huntsman source book comined with Aero source book. Hunts 2 aero 2 to learn it.

If they are magicians, Leadership and resist potion before you trigger the fight.

If they are summoners, AoE source skill + source vampirism and maybe eat some source orb and source potion if you want to be able to use another 3-source skill after it comes off CD to destroy the boss.

The only boss that breaks this rule so far is sadly only level 14 and can easily be overpowered with gear along with a few fights that have bosses of multiple type instead which are very and keep you on your feet because of the stream of attack that comes on each turn and with round robin, you are given the turn to react after each set of attacks.

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Initiative is awful. It makes a stat useless. There is no logic for it to work that way outside of 'because of balance'. Certainly there are npcs that can have high iniaitive as well that this can hurt.. It is one of the worst if not he worst change from DOS1 to DOS2.

Last edited by Volourn; 22/09/17 05:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ellezard
Every build needs Wit in it even if you don't want the Ini.

Dagger builds do not care for Wit, because they have a skill based way to force crits(backstab).

Warfare users do not care for Wit, because they have an ability based way to force crits(Enrage).

Bow/Crossbow builds only care about Wit for the initiative, because they have another stat they can pump to get crit more effectively(Ranged Weapons), and bows come with crit on them with an astounding regularity.

Wits as a source of crit chance is supplementary at best, certainly not the primary way to achieve a viable rate.

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Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by Ellezard
Every build needs Wit in it even if you don't want the Ini.

Dagger builds do not care for Wit, because they have a skill based way to force crits(backstab).

Warfare users do not care for Wit, because they have an ability based way to force crits(Enrage).

Bow/Crossbow builds only care about Wit for the initiative, because they have another stat they can pump to get crit more effectively(Ranged Weapons), and bows come with crit on them with an astounding regularity.

Wits as a source of crit chance is supplementary at best, certainly not the primary way to achieve a viable rate.


Dagger maybe but you still need it for initiative since you're likely the fastest char to go for a quick burst and out.

Warfare uses it because Enraged has been nerfed to oblivion with its 2 AP cost. Most attacks also have been nerfed especially crippling strike. They have roughly the same damage as normal attack now. Outside Overpowered-Crit, attacking twice will either yield the same damage or 50% more damage than using enrage while also not putting its user in danger. Also it's bugged.

Bow abuse crit with warfare + huntsman. Ranged is weak and adds less damage than warfare + huntsman because of how its damage stat work compared to Warfare and Huntsman.

The only legit reason to not get wits now is that the weapon has +25 crit rate (only some weapon have it and the highest level weapon do not) and with the nerf to rune slots on unique gears (from 3 to 1 on act 3), you can no longer put in 3 fire runes for massive crit chance anymore and has to choose between that or the source orb.

Not to mention a certain fight is best done with like 70 ini and you will need both high wit + clear mind for that unless you want to be in for a hard time. (That is if you don't abuse arrow storm)

Wit is always useful and just got a buff with the slots nerf. Only in act 1 or low level does it feel useless to have on characters outside the fast one.

Last edited by Ellezard; 22/09/17 08:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ellezard
Dagger maybe but you still need it for initiative since you're likely the fastest char to go for a quick burst and out.


Except as we have now discussed for umpteen posts, initiative doesn't work that way any more. It's absolutely useless in that regard.

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[further examples]


The significant opportunity costs of investing in wits still make it a very poor choice overall.

Last edited by Terodil; 22/09/17 08:55 PM.
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