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Originally Posted by Darkwind
I know this wasn't your exact point and you were more about the RNG but they are related in that they seemed to cherry pick multiple design strategies and smush them all together, but not necessarily in the most coherent way. I think a couple of patches will resolve the issue, IMHO. It is not as "we r DOMED!1!!" as many are making it out to be.


I do not think using RNG and stat inflation are parts of different design strategies or are inherently incompatible. That said, I agree the stats are kinda silly and hate JPRGs with a burning passion smile

The question is, does the dev team even perceive the current state as something to fix? I'm not sure the people who want even basic combat balancing are a significant portion of the playerbase, going by the steam reviews people are playing the game as a roamer and do not care.

Originally Posted by Bokajon
Attributes: I don't see your problem. They give small boosts that add up over time. Nothing wrong with that.
...
Talents: The talents are cool. Sure some are stronger for minmaxing, but not every player minmaxes. There are loads of people who play this game to roleplay. They want to play the grenade throwing dwarf, no matter if there are better minmax-choices. Check out any pen & paper game and you will see the same thing there.


As I mentioned earlier nowadays I play RPGs for the combat.
From my perspective removing attributes and giving a fixed % damage increase + some memory slots would be practically the same as the current system, there is no depth to it.
It's not even "min-maxing" in the munchkin sense, after spending 30 minutes to go through game mechanics it's obvious what's THE way to use stats(sameish for talents, there are maybe 1-2 picks that could be something else).
Simply put, current combat isn't interesting or challenging for me(a step down from OS:EE, that was imbalanced but still fun).

Last edited by Draba; 28/09/17 03:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Draba
Originally Posted by Darkwind
I know this wasn't your exact point and you were more about the RNG but they are related in that they seemed to cherry pick multiple design strategies and smush them all together, but not necessarily in the most coherent way. I think a couple of patches will resolve the issue, IMHO. It is not as "we r DOMED!1!!" as many are making it out to be.


I do not think using RNG and stat inflation are parts of different design strategies or are inherently incompatible. That said, I agree the stats are kinda silly and hate JPRGs with a burning passion smile

The question is, does the dev team even perceive the current state as something to fix? I'm not sure the people who want even basic combat balancing are a significant portion of the playerbase, going by the steam reviews people are playing the game as a roamer and do not care.


That is the problem:

FANBOYS

People that just outright lie to themselves and everyone else (devs included) about how marvelous their game is and how it is perfect in every aspect.

They just end up destroying franchises.

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Originally Posted by Darkwind
Originally Posted by qwerty3w
High amount of RNG is mostly a tradition of American tabletop game industry that had been carried to early video game industry. Tabletop games from other places may use less RNG, there is a more deterministic class of tabletop games called Eurogame, for instance. Just because many old-school hardcore RPGs (that have been influenced by American tabletop games such as D&D) use a lot of RNG, doesn't mean there is anything inherently hardcore about it.


I think the disconnect is when you base the ENTIRE game around "American tabletop game" as you phrased it, then throw out these Japanese RPG style static (and huge) damage numbers and stats, it is very jarring. Pick a design philosophy and stick to it! If we are going to be arbitrary why not 100 in each stat to match the inflated vitality, armour, etc?

I know this wasn't your exact point and you were more about the RNG but they are related in that they seemed to cherry pick multiple design strategies and smush them all together, but not necessarily in the most coherent way. I think a couple of patches will resolve the issue, IMHO. It is not as "we r DOMED!1!!" as many are making it out to be.

I don't like the inflation too. Divinity was partly a Diablo-like series, number inflation in Original Sin games is probably a legacy of that, just like procedural item generation and the need to search every containers.

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Originally Posted by Zherot
That is the problem:

FANBOYS

People that just outright lie to themselves and everyone else (devs included) about how marvelous their game is and how it is perfect in every aspect.

They just end up destroying franchises.


There isn't some grand conspiracy in the background, the majority genuinely enjoys the game.
It isn't a useless pile of shit, though pretty shallow if the story isn't enough for you.
Just the way it is: kids and the common folk took over RPGs from the neckbeards smile

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Originally Posted by Draba
Originally Posted by Zherot
That is the problem:

FANBOYS

People that just outright lie to themselves and everyone else (devs included) about how marvelous their game is and how it is perfect in every aspect.

They just end up destroying franchises.


There isn't some grand conspiracy in the background, the majority genuinely enjoys the game.
It isn't a useless pile of shit, though pretty shallow if the story isn't enough for you.
Just the way it is: kids and the common folk took over RPGs from the neckbeards smile


Typical hyperbolization that fanboys do to discredit any kind of criticism.

It is not gonna work with me.

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Originally Posted by Zherot
Originally Posted by Draba
Originally Posted by Darkwind
I know this wasn't your exact point and you were more about the RNG but they are related in that they seemed to cherry pick multiple design strategies and smush them all together, but not necessarily in the most coherent way. I think a couple of patches will resolve the issue, IMHO. It is not as "we r DOMED!1!!" as many are making it out to be.


I do not think using RNG and stat inflation are parts of different design strategies or are inherently incompatible. That said, I agree the stats are kinda silly and hate JPRGs with a burning passion smile

The question is, does the dev team even perceive the current state as something to fix? I'm not sure the people who want even basic combat balancing are a significant portion of the playerbase, going by the steam reviews people are playing the game as a roamer and do not care.


That is the problem:

FANBOYS

People that just outright lie to themselves and everyone else (devs included) about how marvelous their game is and how it is perfect in every aspect.

They just end up destroying franchises.

Thing is that people who you call fanboys might just be people who are extremely happy with the game. You can't seem to accept that. They enjoy the game, they roleplay their character, they have fun! Just watch any Lets Play to see how much fun they have.
To me this is the best RPG I have been playing in at least the last 5 years. In the case of DOS2 you would even have to call every professional game reviewer a fanboy.

People that write in this forum make up maybe 0.0005% of all DOS2 players (I'm guessing here). That is not a big representation of players. Most of the DOS2 players are actually playing the game. They are having a blast while we are here discussing what's right or wrong with the game.

Of course a lot of people that you find here on this forum are the negative ones because otherwise they would be playing the game instead of writing. The majority of players though really really enjoys the game. If this is all a fanboys conspiracy then same can be said on this forum about the naysayers and people who seek negativity in everything they do. I am feeling sorry for those.

Last edited by Bokajon; 28/09/17 03:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Zherot
Originally Posted by Draba
There isn't some grand conspiracy in the background, the majority genuinely enjoys the game.
It isn't a useless pile of shit, though pretty shallow if the story isn't enough for you.
Just the way it is: kids and the common folk took over RPGs from the neckbeards smile


Typical hyperbolization that fanboys do to discredit any kind of criticism.

It is not gonna work with me.


Seriously, how slow are you? smile
I'm at the front when it comes to criticizing this game, I'm disappointed and would like it to be completely overhauled.

That said, I'm also capable of understanding that other people have different priorities and
plenty of them do not like the optimization/numbers game as much as I do.

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The Divinity games have always been not very mechanically polished but great for having tons of nonrepetitive contents to explore. Since Divine Divinity it has basically been Larian's game development style. The players should have expected that for D:OS 2 too.

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Originally Posted by qwerty3w
The Divinity games have always been not very mechanically polished but great for having tons of nonrepetitive contents to explore. Since Divine Divinity it has basically been Larian's game development style. The players should have expected that for D:OS 2 too.


I really don't know what you mean by this. Div OS1 had some of the best mechanical polish of any crpg I've ever played. I can't even find a game that holds a candle to it. So it make perfect sense why people are disappointed that Div OS2 was watered down significantly.

That being said I think that irregardless of what you think is or should be changed, you have to agree that some effects need to penetrate armor. Even something simple like making an enemy bleed fire surfaces needs to have armor removed to be applied, and by that point hard CC is miles better. I really want these softer skills to have a place, and they need to get through armors to do that.

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Originally Posted by qwerty3w
The Divinity games have always been not very mechanically polished but great for having tons of nonrepetitive contents to explore. Since Divine Divinity it has basically been Larian's game development style. The players should have expected that for D:OS 2 too.


Even if thats true I expect the developer to try and learn from his mistakes and try to be better. If he doesnt that I will not buy his games on release(most large developers). Or ever(eg Ubisoft).

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Originally Posted by HUcast

I really don't know what you mean by this. Div OS1 had some of the best mechanical polish of any crpg I've ever played. I can't even find a game that holds a candle to it. So it make perfect sense why people are disappointed that Div OS2 was watered down significantly.

Some complaints I heard:
Stealing and crafting should have been more interesting, self-made items are too powerful.
Sneaking is almost always worse than invisibility skills.
Bartering and lucky charm have very little effects, and it's tedious to switch to your looter for looting or move items and money to your barterer.
Persuading has a rock paper scissor mini-game, annoying if the player really wants a certain outcome, and it doesn't scale well, 11 points for each win is no different than 6.
Item repairing is really tedious.
Traits pressure the player to make certain role-playing choices for character builds.
In the vanilla version, breaking a chest would lead to content loss, why they removed that in EE?
Strength/dexterity/intelligence are bland and discourage hybrid builds, though not completely invalidate them. Perception is too weak.
Talents are quite unbalanced, Hyperopia actually lead to less accuracy in long range.
Too much hard CC skills, grenades, arrows. Smoke is too effective against long range enemies.
Lack of synergies between earth-fire and water-air. It would be great if steam cloud is more useful, for example.






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Originally Posted by qwerty3w
Originally Posted by HUcast

I really don't know what you mean by this. Div OS1 had some of the best mechanical polish of any crpg I've ever played. I can't even find a game that holds a candle to it. So it make perfect sense why people are disappointed that Div OS2 was watered down significantly.

Some complaints I heard:
Stealing and Crafting should have been more interesting, self-made items are too powerful.
Sneaking is almost always worse than invisibility skills.
Bartering and lucky charm have very little effects, and it's tedious to switch to your looter for looting or move items and money to your barterer.
Persuading has a rock paper scissor mini-game, annoying if the player really want a certain outcome, and it doesn't scale well, 11 points for each win is no different than 6.
Item repairing is really tedious.
Traits pressure the player to make certain role-playing choices for character builds.
In the vanilla version, breaking a chest would lead to content loss, why they removed that in EE?
Strength/dexterity/intelligence are bland and discourage hybrid builds, though not completely invalidate them. Perception is too weak.
Talents are quite unbalanced, Hyperopia acutally lead to less accuracy in long range.
Too much hard CC spells, grenades, arrows. Smoke is too effective against long range enemies.
Lack of synergies between earth-fire and water-air. It would be great if steam cloud was more useful, for example.





You are completely right in the case of balance, divinity 1 OS was not so, even in the enhanced edition. However, it is a single player game, Balance can be secondary to making different things feel interesting and varied. Its ok that my cool bard multiclass character is slightly less effective than what is the most "combat effective". Not only would I not know what's the best until I tried both or looked it up on a wiki (which you shouldn't do anyway), I have plenty of fun with both.

When I say mechanical polish in divinity, I don't mean every option is just as good as any other to a T. I mean the systems in place are well made, reward creative play, and are satisfying to use. I don't think any CRPG is 100% balanced, nor do I think they should be.

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Originally Posted by HUcast
Originally Posted by qwerty3w
Originally Posted by HUcast

I really don't know what you mean by this. Div OS1 had some of the best mechanical polish of any crpg I've ever played. I can't even find a game that holds a candle to it. So it make perfect sense why people are disappointed that Div OS2 was watered down significantly.

Some complaints I heard:
Stealing and Crafting should have been more interesting, self-made items are too powerful.
Sneaking is almost always worse than invisibility skills.
Bartering and lucky charm have very little effects, and it's tedious to switch to your looter for looting or move items and money to your barterer.
Persuading has a rock paper scissor mini-game, annoying if the player really want a certain outcome, and it doesn't scale well, 11 points for each win is no different than 6.
Item repairing is really tedious.
Traits pressure the player to make certain role-playing choices for character builds.
In the vanilla version, breaking a chest would lead to content loss, why they removed that in EE?
Strength/dexterity/intelligence are bland and discourage hybrid builds, though not completely invalidate them. Perception is too weak.
Talents are quite unbalanced, Hyperopia acutally lead to less accuracy in long range.
Too much hard CC spells, grenades, arrows. Smoke is too effective against long range enemies.
Lack of synergies between earth-fire and water-air. It would be great if steam cloud was more useful, for example.





You are completely right in the case of balance, divinity 1 OS was not so, even in the enhanced edition. However, it is a single player game, Balance can be secondary to making different things feel interesting and varied. Its ok that my cool bard multiclass character is slightly less effective than what is the most "combat effective". Not only would I not know what's the best until I tried both or looked it up on a wiki (which you shouldn't do anyway), I have plenty of fun with both.

When I say mechanical polish in divinity, I don't mean every option is just as good as any other to a T. I mean the systems in place are well made, reward creative play, and are satisfying to use. I don't think any CRPG is 100% balanced, nor do I think they should be.


He forgot to say that DOS1 had fun combat.

In here it is just a chore.

Best part of the game ruined.

Last edited by Zherot; 28/09/17 09:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by qwerty3w
High amount of RNG is mostly a tradition of American tabletop game industry that had been carried to early video game industry. Tabletop games from other places may use less RNG, there is a more deterministic class of tabletop games called Eurogame, for instance. Just because many old-school hardcore RPGs (that have been influenced by American tabletop games such as D&D) use a lot of RNG, doesn't mean there is anything inherently hardcore about it.


I guess you didn't notice while playing that games with RNG can be challenging because things often don't go as planned. While games without RNG are boring as hell because things always go exactly as you plan.

Now, since having a variety of people will cover a broad spectrum of the quality of their planning abilities, it is no surprise that many people completely miss this point.

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Not letting this thread die, it explains really well most of the problems within the game.

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Originally Posted by Zherot
Best part of the game ruined.


We all have our own opinions. Steam users 94% say the like.

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Originally Posted by Horrorscope
Originally Posted by Zherot
Best part of the game ruined.


We all have our own opinions. Steam users 94% say the like.


Well thing is what this post says is 100% fact.

People can like shit all they want but that doesn't mean is not shit and most people are retarded that is the sad truth, that is why the more a game is known the more idiot fanboys it gets and the more retards come to play it, since they are the mayority and the devs obviously make games to earn money they end up ruining their own games to please this high amount of retards (fanboys) with terrible fucking taste.

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I think that's enough drama for one topic.


J'aime le fromage.
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