Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Sep 2017
Ferrin Offline OP
apprentice
OP Offline
apprentice
Joined: Sep 2017
There are several skills which scale multiplicative with attributes, meaning that 10% from 12 points in Intelligence will boost your 1000 damage fireball to 1100, which goes to 1211 if you also have 2 points in pyrokinetic instead of 1200 if it was additive scaling.

(1000*1.1*1.1 for multiplicative, 1000*1.2 for additive)

The numbers are small here, but the difference gets bigger and bigger to the benefit of multiplicative skills the higher your numbers get. 30 Intelligence and 10 Pyrokinetic would have the fireball deal 3000 damage with multiplicative scaling(1000*2*1.5), while additive scaling would have it deal 2500(1000*2.5)

Skills with additive scaling are the weapon skills and(indirectly) Polymorph as it directly boosts the attribute.

I think the game would be better if either all skills are either multiplicative or additive so they're at least balanced against eachother. It does require a few tweaks here and there as Polymorph for example would be the go-to point investment for multi-element spellcasters because of the intelligence if only for the early levels when you've not yet reached the attribute cap.

If all scaling is multiplicative, the Polymorph skill would require an extra benefit alongside the attribute boost to make investing points into it meaningful beyond the skill requirements. If it's additive, pure-damage boost skills like warfare and pyrokinetic would need a benefit alongside the damage boost to make it competetive with other skills. The Hydrosophist and Geomancy skills are very well designed in this regard and I'd like to see the other skills get a similar treatment.

Situational damage boosts like the huntsman skill are also very nice(even though they're one of the few things multiplying damage yet again on top of other multipliers), you need to use the environment to your advantage with it. Dealing X% of damage dealt as fire to enemies standing on fire/burning for Pyrokinetic would be interesting in my opinion.

When having multiple multipliers of damage like warfare, huntsman, critical hits, or the suggested Pyrokinetic skill the issue is with having to many synergistic skills if it's all multiplicative, which limits the number of effective character builds people can create as everything that doesn't use these synergies to their advantage and relies on additive damage will fall far behind.

A possible compromise would be to have multipliers go from the attribute boosted damage instead of work off eachother, for example:

A 1000 damage fireball boosted to 3000 by 30 Intelligence and 10 Pyrokinetic(1000*2*1.5) and a 50% damage bonus from high-ground thanks to several points in Huntsman would deal 4500(3000*1.5) damage right now. If each multiplier goes off the attribute-boosted damage it would be 4000(1000*2*1.5+((1000*2*1.5)-(1000*2)).

I don't think critical hits should be affected the same way, as most sources of it are quite an investment, Backstab from daggers excluded. In addition to it being an investment, it would just feel and look pretty weird to see a 150% critical hit only deal 20% bonus damage, for example. Same goes for most sources of multiplicative damage turned to additive, but multipliers add a lot of imbalances to the game.

(small side note; the summoner ability "Supercharger" is additive scaling, not multiplicative, while in this case with both the summon and this ability being abilities that cost AP, it'd make a lot of sense for it to be multiplicative as it only gets worse the higher level you get)

Joined: Sep 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
Hear, hear. Surely the game can not be intentionally balanced to account for these differences? Or at the very least can not quickly be changed to be equally balanced if the damage amplification types were standardised.


Trap Strats: DOS1:EE? Cheese - DOS2? Mashed potatoes - Proper nutrition is key to dungeon delving.
Joined: Sep 2017
Ferrin Offline OP
apprentice
OP Offline
apprentice
Joined: Sep 2017
There are a few sources of multiplicative damage that can't be changed that easily I would imagine, primarily Huntsman's High ground bonus and Critical hits. These are the hard ones to change, whether you go with full multipliers, no multipliers, or partial multipliers(only based on main attribute).

On a sidenote, Summoning is another issue as it doesn't scale with main stats at all making it scale very poorly at higher levels.

Joined: Sep 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
Holly war!
guys who loves Math vs guys who love Flowers smile

___

All should be multiplicative. Cos with additive +5% all builds will be primitive

Atributes % * schools % * weapon mastery % * crit.dmg * high ground % etc

mix as u wish

#Larianreworkarmor

Last edited by Roamer; 30/09/17 06:45 AM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Sep 2017
Ferrin Offline OP
apprentice
OP Offline
apprentice
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Roamer
Holly war!
guys who loves Math vs guys who love Flowers smile

___

All should be multiplicative. Cos with additive +5% all builds will be primitive

Atributes % * schools % * weapon mastery % * crit.dmg * high ground % etc

mix as u wish

#Larianreworkarmor


That would make the characters with the most multipliers the strongest, as is obvious with Rangers right now. It's the opposite of "mix as u wish", it's "stack the most multipliers" to win.

Joined: Sep 2017
Location: no
L
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
L
Joined: Sep 2017
Location: no
Twohanded weapon + assasins way. It's overpowered too.


#larianreworkarmor

Joined: Sep 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Ferrin

That would make the characters with the most multipliers the strongest, as is obvious with Rangers right now.


u could be a Mage with same multipliers as Ranger

Fire * Highground * Crit.dmg * Atribute

So every build could be OP if u pick all multipliers
The reasons why Melee is OP - they dont need alot of memory and enemy have no % resist to physical.

#Larianreworkarmor
#Lariansaybbtounexpiriancedyoungdevs

Last edited by Roamer; 30/09/17 12:23 PM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Sep 2017
Ferrin Offline OP
apprentice
OP Offline
apprentice
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Roamer
Originally Posted by Ferrin

That would make the characters with the most multipliers the strongest, as is obvious with Rangers right now.


u could be a Mage with same multipliers as Ranger

Fire * Highground * Crit.dmg * Atribute


"Atributes % * schools % * weapon mastery % * crit.dmg * high ground %"

Your words, that not only has 1 more multiplier in weapon mastery(warfare being a school), but also does not need a talent to even benefit from crit damage.

That's not even considering the fact enemies have high resistances to damage so you can't effectively focus on one damage type which doesn't allow you to stack on a single damage type by going Pyrokinetic * Huntsman * scoundrel even if you wanted to.

Joined: Sep 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
Yes, read my edited msg

The best thing of Mages - they dont need weapon to deal dmg. But in current system u could roll everything u want - its not a problem for melee to found good weapon

Last edited by Roamer; 30/09/17 12:33 PM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Sep 2017
Ferrin Offline OP
apprentice
OP Offline
apprentice
Joined: Sep 2017
Your edited message does not adress anything I mentioned aside from the resistances, so your point is?

Joined: Sep 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
My poin is that u could geather all mults for any class

But for melee autoatacker its more easy to Max em.

Mages need more schools, more memory to be able to counter mag.resists so they cant Max all multipliers that fast as melee

But dont forget about weaknesses to elemental dmg - its another multiplier for mages.

Last edited by Roamer; 30/09/17 12:40 PM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Sep 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
Some youtuber said that weapon mastery is additive(dont know additive to atributes or schools)
but if its true then every mastery is useless exept two-handed

Last edited by Roamer; 30/09/17 12:53 PM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Sep 2017
Ferrin Offline OP
apprentice
OP Offline
apprentice
Joined: Sep 2017
1. There aren't as many multipliers for magic as for physical, of which crit requires a hefty investment.
2. Resistances mean you need multiple magic types which requires both memory and skill points, which don't multiply your damage.
3. Weaknesses to elemental damage are few and far between, and only work after the magical armour is gone already of the skills that inflict it, one of such skills is even strength based, not intelligence.

Originally Posted by Roamer
Some youtuber said that weapon mastery is additive(dont know additive to atributes or schools)
but if its true then every mastery is useless exept two-handed


It's additive, yes, but Ranged giving Crit % is also useful because of it. If weapon skills were multiplicative instead of additive then the difference would be even bigger than it is now.

Few ways to close the gap between physical and magical + ranged vs melee scaling;
1. Remove the damage portion of weapon skills or remove damage portion of warfare.
2. Give spells critical hit chance without a talent.
3. Either give Polymorph an extra effect, or make all skills additive with attributes.
4. Critical hit damage and high ground damage on same layer of multiplication. (so Damage * 150% critical damage + 30% high ground instead of Dmg * Crit * HG) This would reign in the absurd scaling of ranged compared to melee with high ground regardless of whether it's magical or physical.
5. Less resistances in the game, or add multiple damage types for physical and have enemies be resistant to some(skeletons resistant to piercing but weak to crushing for example) Making them effectively magic schools in that regard.

Just spitballing here, but it's entirely possible to get closer to a semblance of balance while keeping most of the game as-is.

Last edited by Ferrin; 30/09/17 01:03 PM.
Joined: Sep 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
2. Give spells critical hit chance without a talent.
not a problem to pick that talent

i think devs should do something with resists and weakneses (some balance)
maybe some rework of weapon mastery
no additive stats
some balance for weapon base dmg (Primary 2-handed)
more smart betatesters before release

all other isnt that bad

exept this smile

- boring stats rolling on items (tired of save/loads cos the game have no restrictions for that)
- boring looting with lucky charm (u need to change the system that allows u to randomise item appearence order by opening another chest or trade window)
- boring talks with NPC (u need to talk to em with all of ur characters in order to reveal all content)
- boring save/load in order to try different dialogue options
- boring fights (Mass Effect battle system is bad. I have a post of better one)
- boring thievery (u can steal 10+ times from each NPC by creating new mercenaries. Didnt try shapeshifting)
- boring WELL (u can buy 35 purple belts and rings by using all ur 7 characters and Shapeshifting)
- boring desigions (kill for exp or kill later for exp after completing his possible future quest. Or even complete Winter Dragon quest but kill him duaring dialogue for more exp and loot and even being dead he will help u with shrinkers)
- boring tons of money (maybe the option to reroll item stats with some gold cost will solve some economy issues and decrease save/load attemps for rolling items after lucky charm)
- boring stools blocking (Enemy should know how to move objects in fight)
- boring companions but lone wolf is boring too (4 AP is boring. on average its just 2 hits or move and hit. 6 AP of lone wolf is good and better for tactical purposes and comboattack planning but his OPness is boring)
- boring quest rewards (u can sometimes receive up to 7 rewards for the quest by talking with NPC with each of ur characters. Didnt try shapehifting maybe it works too)
- boring items sorting (especialy in chest or begs. Can we have an option to mark some items with CTRL+click and then(in one click) move all marked to another character or chest? And the autosorting button in chest)
- boring removes of autoadded scrolls bombs and bottles.
- boring tries to create Tank for my party (enemy ignoring him. He cant agro em. Even under effect of agro archers sometimes can hit another character with non AOE autoatack. Dead class)
- boring arena mode (Is it hard to create arena where u could fight using ur campain characters? System will search for an oponent with equal (+/- few if u wish) levels, summ of attributes/talents/perks, party size)

Last edited by Roamer; 30/09/17 01:36 PM.

Game Quality Control
Joined: Sep 2017
Ferrin Offline OP
apprentice
OP Offline
apprentice
Joined: Sep 2017
Needing a talent for it on top of all the other imbalances between the two is a problem, though.

And as to your "boring" things...

1. It's your choice whether you save/load to optimize for items, you don't need to game the system like that.
2. Lucky charm is a problem for a co-op game in general, as Lucky Charm isn't party-wide it means only one person can loot to get the full benefits of it.
3. It's a roleplaying game, dialogue is part of it and it's a good thing that there are so many individual decicions for each character rather than assign everything to the "group".
4. It's your choice whether you save/load to try different dialogue options, you don't need to game the system like that.
5. I'm curious what you find boring about the combat, I personally really enjoy it assuming people don't cheese it. (barrelmancy, for example)
6. That's an issue with shapeshifting, the well rewarding each player isn't a bad thing in my opinion. But a limit of 4 would be good.
7. I agree that killing after quest rewards is encouraged to much. (and with slane it's a bug, also a spoiler)
8. Tons of money only if you put time and effort into it, and perhaps game the system, like you mention later.
9. I agree, enemies should be able to move object as well.
10. You prefer more actions per turn, then lone wolf is great. Lone Wolf is only OP because of all the multiplicative stacking which gets highlighted more the higher your stats get. You say you want more multiplicative scaling, but it's pretty OP.
11. Quests giving rewards to each of your characters is fine, but again, limit of 4 would be better.(or only counting the characters in your party at the time you completed it?)
12. I like that suggestion, I'd also like to be able to drag and drop items to another player's bags instead of having to right click and "Send to" when playing co-op.
13. I believe they were adding an option to no longer auto-add items to your hotbar, so that's getting fixed I think.
14. Yes tanks are not viable right now and provoke needs some serious buffs.
15. I haven't tried arena mode, so can't comment on that.

Overall though, a lot of your complaints come from gaming the system above and beyond what an average player would do. And many of the complaints are thing straight-out exploiting bugs like with Slane and the shapeshifting. "Savescumming" is another of your complaints, yet that is completely optional.

Joined: Sep 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
With my love to discover end explore - all boring smile

Yes, i realy hate save/loads to test everything but its like a drug. Devs should create games where u dont need to save/load so often. We have many good exemples in game industry.

P.S. if u want i can tell u how to kill all magisters and npc in prologue even those three near mad grandma to recive all possible exp.

how to join new party member with lvl 1 even if u already level 4+ and respec him as u wish

how to kill all fort joy magisters on lvl 3-4 and dont miss any quest and escape options. (or even how to stop Alexander with thivery near first gate without any Guardians and Dallis and try to kill him there)

or how to escape fort joy with resurection scroll in 1 minute after prologue smile

or how to recive lucky charm item from every barrel smile

and so on and so on :)))

Last edited by Roamer; 30/09/17 08:14 PM.

Game Quality Control

Moderated by  gbnf, Nicou 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5