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#625166 02/10/17 04:02 PM
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Nice comic, but to many people seem to dispise dice rolling also it looks pretty complicated for casual gamers.

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50% likes dice rolls and tabletop RPG
50% dont like smile

50% lazy casuals
50% hardocre gamers

So where is the truth?
If u want to be good for all u should create Classic mode w/o RNG for cassuals and Tactic mode or harder with RNG for non-casuals

Last edited by Roamer; 02/10/17 05:26 PM.

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There are several issues with the combat in this game, hopefully the get fixed either by Larian or mods in the future but I'm not sure most of these problems are even seen as actual problems by some players.

I've seen this solution to the armor/marmor on the forums a few times now and I really think it should be implemented alongside a system that makes CC locking harder. The system presented on the image where the % of the respective armor left is the character's chance to resist the CC is a simple solution that I really like.

I'm not really sure why anyone likes the complete lack of RNG on a tactical RPG, it just makes the game a complete cakewalk, even on the hardest difficulty, but hey... To each their own I guess...

Fixing this and the plethora of in combat repositioning tools (Its a tactical combat where EVERYONE can blink/fly/teleport/whatever, doesn't really help it much) would make the combat system way more interesting than it currently is.



I just hope they end up managing to deliver on the mod friendliness of the game's engine (currently not the case), that way modders can do this if they don't.

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Originally Posted by NeoAnubis
I'm not really sure why anyone likes the complete lack of RNG on a tactical RPG, it just makes the game a complete cakewalk, even on the hardest difficulty, but hey... To each their own I guess...


I think that the RNG should have only a small effect (for example the damage rolls), because a game gets less tactical if the effect of the RNG is too strong.

It is amazing that Larian has reduced the strength of the RNG in DOS2. Another great example of a tactical game without a RNG is Invisible Inc.

Last edited by Wizard1200; 02/10/17 06:45 PM.
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Btw, its not hard to add checkbox in options menu for players who want hard lock on 100% and 0% (even if they dont understand that we have tons of another RNGs in the game, or dont know how to shred armor to zero for lovely 0% CC resist)

and both sides of "Holly war" will be happy

Last edited by Roamer; 02/10/17 07:00 PM.

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anything would be better than current system.

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Originally Posted by Sergey Butsenov
anything would be better than current system.


Hey smile do you see that your party problem is on my image? smile
And lone mage still help ur partymembers with some reduction of CC resist, and even some dmg to vitality smile

Last edited by Roamer; 02/10/17 07:09 PM.

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The argument of "it gets less tactical if RNG is too strong" is pretty much void of meaning, there is no correlation there.

Divinity 2 currently has no RNG on crowd control and there is absolutely no tactic required on the combat part of it. There are too many ways to reposition and whoever is out of armor will be stuck on permanent CC.

What the game does to fake balance it is allow enemies to cheat, by giving every creature in the game all information about the player characters (It will always know resistances, who has glass cannon, imunities, etc.), and through a completely nonsensical turn order, the worst part is: even with that, it's still too easy.

No RNG on a game like this would be fine when playing against players, not so much against the AI, unless it is bound by the same rules and is actually good.

On the other hand, it is possible to be RNG heavy while still requiring tactical thinking.

Compared to most tactical combat systems out there, X-Com (probably the most played tactical combat game out there) is rather RNG heavy. The idea that it would requires less tactical thinking is dubious, at best.



The checkbox option is very unlikely to happen, I do have my hopes high for a mod adding this, Larian not so much, they deliberately designed the game this way (and aparently a lot of it is currently hardcoded too).

Last edited by NeoAnubis; 02/10/17 07:12 PM.
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For a deterministic design, CC could be divisible instead of having RNG.
How could that work for the binary CC effects? If a character is 50% charmed, he could freely decide how to spend half of his AP points at that turn, the enemy get to decide how to spend the other half.

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Originally Posted by NeoAnubis

allow enemies to cheat, by giving every creature in the game all information about the player characters

the worst part is: even with that, it's still too easy.


Yes, easy difficulty is another problem. But better to solve 1 by 1.

Originally Posted by NeoAnubis

The checkbox option is very unlikely to happen, I do have my hopes high for a mod adding this, Larian not so much, they deliberately designed the game this way (and aparently a lot of it is currently hardcoded too).


With all my love to Larian Studio... i think they cheated with DOS2... they took all from DOS1, spend alot of time to draw and create a story...and didnt even want to try to create good and new mechanic... hope i am wrong.

Last edited by Roamer; 02/10/17 07:29 PM.

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Originally Posted by qwerty3w
For a deterministic design, CC could be divisible instead of having RNG.
How could that work for the binary CC effects? If a character is 50% charmed, he could freely decide how to spend half of his AP points at that turn, the enemy get to decide how to spend the other half.


the first rule of fight club is you do not talk about fight club smile


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Originally Posted by NeoAnubis
The argument of "it gets less tactical if RNG is too strong" is pretty much void of meaning, there is no correlation there.

Divinity 2 currently has no RNG on crowd control and there is absolutely no tactic required on the combat part of it. There are too many ways to reposition and whoever is out of armor will be stuck on permanent CC.


In a game with a strong RNG luck is as important as tactical decisions, because your perfect plan can be ruined by a single dice roll.

It is great that the crowd control abilities of DOS2 have no RNG, but you are right, that they do not have much tactical depth, because the armor has to be removed first.

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Originally Posted by Wizard1200

In a game with a strong RNG luck is as important as tactical decisions, because your perfect plan can be ruined by a single dice roll.


Have u play BloodBowl?
I do. And i can say even with strong RNG u have some problems only in the beginning while u learn game mechanic.
Few minutes/hours and FUN is beginning smile RNG becomes like ocean, and u are the shark)

As a tactician u should callculate all possible results. Even criticaly bad for u. Thats the real tactic. And u are prepeared even for unlucky rolls.

Last edited by Roamer; 02/10/17 07:52 PM.

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Originally Posted by qwerty3w
For a deterministic design, CC could be divisible instead of having RNG.
How could that work for the binary CC effects? If a character is 50% charmed, he could freely decide how to spend half of his AP points at that turn, the enemy get to decide how to spend the other half.


If there was a definition for unelegant design, this would be it.
Ps. i still love you

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Love it.

There needs to be SOME RNG, otherwise fights get a bit too mechanical. It's very enjoyable, in my opinion, to try a "risky" move, and be rewarded with 3 knocked down targets! Without RNG, there is no risk... it's all contrived. Enough said about CC lockdown on plenty of other threads. I think most grievances have been laid out about current system.

I do very much enjoy the current armor system for one reason, though. It makes support classes (healing) more robust than simply healing life. Keeping characters good on various defenses adds another dimension.

This comic seems to be the best suggestion I've seen so far. Bravo. Also adds the increased appeal of different defensive attributes (willpower, etc) to bolster cc defense despite your armor deteriorating (something i really liked in D:OS 1). Armor and such can also have built in physical/magical resistance (comic uses the term "absorb"). This adds another VERY cool dimension.

You also have the ability to have increased points in particular skills reduce the effectiveness of the targets CC resist. VERY COOL. You can play a CC based illusionist (or whatever) with perks to "pierce" CC resist chance.

I understand attributes/skills/gear can become overly complicated, but in my opinion the game suffers from exacty the opposite currently. Combat is contrived, and sometimes not as interesting as D:OS1. Character defenses and attributes are not as robust...

Bravo indeed. If this does not become a reality, I'd be tempted to mod it. Don't know how moddable the underlying combat/damage code would be.

Last edited by AussieKSU; 02/10/17 08:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Wizard1200
Originally Posted by NeoAnubis
The argument of "it gets less tactical if RNG is too strong" is pretty much void of meaning, there is no correlation there.

Divinity 2 currently has no RNG on crowd control and there is absolutely no tactic required on the combat part of it. There are too many ways to reposition and whoever is out of armor will be stuck on permanent CC.


In a game with a strong RNG luck is as important as tactical decisions, because your perfect plan can be ruined by a single dice roll.


It's called bad luck. Sometimes the best made plans go wrong.

Also, if this happens to you alot, maybe, just maybe, your plans aren't as good as you think they are. In games with die rolls and/or percentages there are usually ways to improve your odds through careful planning. If you're ignoring that aspect of the planning stage then yes you'll often find yourself on the wrong side of the die roll. Calling die rolls RNG, isn't really true either, as your bonuses through stats, abilities, talents, and environment should improve or hurt your odds given the unique circumstances of the encounter, which takes the randomness out of the equation. A random die roll wouldn't take anything into account, it would just be a set chance that's completely unaltered. That would be random. A die roll that takes your bonuses into account is not random.

Sometimes stuff happens, and as humans we tend to focus on the times stuff goes badly than when things go well, but I find that my character is DOS 1 makes his saving throws quite often. If I ignored it or didn't realize how often I make my saving throws I'd think it was random too, but that's not the case.

Removing chance from the equation makes the game stale and repetitive. It's boring to have things go as expected every time just because you met a certain criteria. It removes those heroic moments where you overcome the odds too.

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Originally Posted by Mebi
If there was a definition for unelegant design, this would be it.

All it did is just dividing turns into smaller parts, AP points can be seen as smaller parts within a turn, seems pretty elegant to me.

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Originally Posted by AussieKSU

This comic seems to be the best suggestion I've seen so far. Bravo.


Thanks a lot

Last edited by Roamer; 02/10/17 10:30 PM.

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I do not have anything against people liking a tactical game without RNG elements, that is fine, you can enjoy whatever the hell you want. What I do have a problem with is illogical arguments.

There are plenty of arguments to be made in favour of a game with tactical combat without RNG elements, however, the ones that imply "more rng = less tactics", or anything of that sort, are just factually wrong.

There are plenty of examples to showcase that there is absolutely no correlation between those two factors. It is possible to have no RNG and no tactics, it is possible to have a lot of RNG and a lot of tactics (frankly there are dozens of examples of both).



The beauty of combat in a tactical game is giving the player the tools to overcome the possibility of randomness, that is when you know it was well done. I've yet to see a really good tactical combat game without any rng elements (or very little of them really), mainly because those do have the tendency of going bland. This specifically could be a case of personal prefference though.

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