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#627847 07/10/17 07:11 PM
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So I was talking with Sebille for the first time to Zaleskar the undead outside the gate of forth joy...

After a couple of dialog box, I had to make a persuasion test so that he can tell more about Sebille...

So you had the usual, STR, INT, FIN sentence to choose... so I've chosen to make a FIN persuasion test...
I've failed...with 22...
So if the game requires persuasion on all characters to even attempt to make a test, it feels kind of pointless to ask for a STR/INT/FIN check ... as it auto failed if you haven't increase your persuasion... or that is what it feels like...

Anyway, he endured a painful death and that's it...

Last edited by AngeliusMefyrx; 07/10/17 07:11 PM.
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It feels like the stat means almost nothing, and the persuasion level means almost everything, especially in the later levels. I swear I read somewhere that some of the Arx checks were failing with 50+ in whatever stat it called.

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I have found that Persuasion success is more likely if you pay attention to the character and figure out which of the options is the most likely to work, instead of just always picking the one you have the highest attribute score in.

I've had a reasonable level of success by doing that.

For instance, Stingtail is not persuaded by a general "if you don't help, people will die", but he IS persuaded by a specific "if you don't help, you, specifically, will die" check.

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I think some are red herrings. Some people just won't be moved by threats of force. That's cool, I like it that way.

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Persuasion needs to be made more clear in its implementation; I have played co-op with several different groups and they have all come to wildly different conclusions (only stats matter, only persuasion matters, every option is valid, some options are impossible, etc). Making it clear that Persuasion involves reading comprehension and that there may be options that will not succeed is important for not confusing and frustrating newer players; especially when it was such a stark change from the first game's system.


The Flaws of Divinity: Original Sin II: A list of observations of the game's shortcomings for the community.
Found HERE.
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Here is some test that I did at the begging of Act 2 (persuading the executioner at the gallows).

7CON + 4PER - SUCCESS
22CON + 3PER - SUCCESS (fails with 21CON)
34CON + 2 PER - FAIL

10STR + 3PER - SUCCESS
26STR + 2PER - SUCCESS (fails with 25STR)
34STR + 1PER - FAIL

35WITS + 5PER - FAIL

As you see, it looks if Persuasion skill is over some threshold specific to encounter and type of attribute, it will always succeed regardless of attribute score. In example above that was 4PER for CON and 3PER for STR check.

If having Persuasion one skill level lower then that, then actual ability does matter, and needs to pass additional attribute threshold.

If Persuasion is any lower then that, it looks that it always fails, regardless of attribute scores.

Also, some options look like red herrings, like Wits check in this specific encounter.

And most importantly, there is no random element involved in these checks.


EDIT:
There is still possibility that Persuasion skill adds some free attribute scores for the check, but I think that is unlikely. In example above, even 16 score difference is not enough to pass STR check, compared to the character with one extra point in Persuasion. To me, it is unlikely that 1 Persuasion point adds even more (like +20-25 to attribute check), but I can not verify since I do not have leveled enough characters to do such tests.

Last edited by player1; 14/10/17 05:01 PM.
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i think they have two check.

Persuasion level check: If pass all pass.

Attribute check: If persuasion level is not passed.

Attributes check sometimes can lead to different outcomes.

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But it looks attribute check is only used if Persuasion is 1 point less then needed for it to pass.

Otherwise it looks to be automatic fail.

Also, different checks have different requirements for Persuasion.

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Persuasion adds a # to the relevant statistic in question during persuasion checks, it is not separate from the attribute.

Persuasion options for different atrributes have different thresholds (for obvious reasons). It is always possible to know through the dialogue which options will be harder.

As an example, picking an aggressive option to persuade any of the Trolls in ACT II will almost always lead to a failure, the requirement is ridiculously high (might be impossible), while the less aggressive persuasion options are actually quite easy to pass (in terms of threshold).

So persuasion is not at all misleading, but it doesn't mean it is shared with your characters that don't have it, and it also doesn't mean that the stat you have more of is more likely to succeed (for obvious reasons, if you actually read the sentences).

You're getting confused there because you think your higher stat will be more likely to pass the check, that is not the case, and it shouldn't be.


Currently there is only 1 character that it is impossible to persuade, in ACT 3.

Last edited by NeoAnubis; 15/10/17 04:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by NeoAnubis
Persuasion adds a # to the relevant statistic in question during persuasion checks, it is not separate from the attribute.


I do not see this from testing at all.

At one specific persuasion level (depending on the encounter/attribute used, which varies), attribute checks are used. If having one more PER then that, it always succeeds, despite attribute values (checked with very low values, like over 15+ attribute points lower), and if having one PER less it, it always fails, despite attribute values (checked with very high values, like 15+ attributes higher).

Please, add any examples, that can be reproduced with testing, if you think this is not correct.

Last edited by player1; 15/10/17 05:12 PM.
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It's what I read from other people's tests. I didn't attempt trial and error on the same check to make sure myself.

However, I have seen checks fail with 3 persuasion, and succeed with 2 persuasion and higher relevant stat.

It could also be that persuasion lowers the threshold, by an increasing ammount.

The wiki suggests that persuasion could also be a multiplier, which would explain quite a bit too (especially if the increase is not linear).

Still, there is only 1 way to check for sure:

1 - Edit a character down to 1 or 0 in the relevant stat (with 0 persuasion).
2 - Increase the relevant stat until it's possible to pass the check.
3 - Add 1 persuasion
4 - Lower the stat until it is no longer possible to pass the check

If at step 4, lowering the stat by 1 fails the check, you are correct that it is independent from the stat. If it does not, then it is not independent from the stat (unless it doesn't fail all the way to 0, in which case you will need to test at a more difficult check).

More easily done with a cheat in hand to propperly edit stats.


EDIT: Keep in mind that some persuasion dialogue options are impossible (Tiger in act 3 is an example, but on this case all are impossible, sometimes only 1 option is) and some persuasion dialogue options are impossible to fail (almost always clear if you're paying attention to the conversation). This needs to be tested on an option that can both fail and succeed.

Last edited by NeoAnubis; 16/10/17 12:00 AM.
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I do not think there is a "attribute check" at all.

The [Stuff] is what enables the choice in the first place, so if you do not meet this attribute requirement, you do not get to see this dialogue-option at all. This is the same for [Attribute] in check as with the [Race] or [Character] (or [Hero] if you have that tag) for all the other dialogue-options.

The check then is only based on the persuasion-points and nothing else. Also, it is no roll but a fixed value you have to meet.

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We know for a fact that the attribute check exists, there is no question there, since a character without any persuasion can pass failable checks (mostly when the relevant stat is high).

The question is wether the attribute gets improved by persuasion or if persuasion is just separate from it.

You will always have [attribute] persuasion options. Sometimes you will get options based on your tags. and very rarely you will get a persuasion option that involves BOTH a tag AND an attribute.

There is info on the wiki, if necessary.

Other than that, I don't think anyone did the full test yet, or if they did I didn't see the results.

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There is no check in a sense of rolling a dice, but there is attribute and persuasion requirement.

But my testing shown that only at specific level of persuasion is attribute "check" used (and this varies from encounter and dialogue option chosen). If having higher persuasion it always succeeds and if lower it always fails.

But I have tested with only attributes around 15-16 higher or lower then attribute check needed in my testing. So there is still possibility that +1 persuasion skill adds something like +20 or more to attributes (but highly unlikely, IMHO).

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Originally Posted by Tripledragon
I do not think there is a "attribute check" at all.

The [Stuff] is what enables the choice in the first place, so if you do not meet this attribute requirement, you do not get to see this dialogue-option at all. This is the same for [Attribute] in check as with the [Race] or [Character] (or [Hero] if you have that tag) for all the other dialogue-options.

The check then is only based on the persuasion-points and nothing else. Also, it is no roll but a fixed value you have to meet.


I'm not going to say this is absolutely right, but that is how it feels to me.


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You are getting really confused there.

We always knew that there was no dice rolling on the check. If you meet the requirement, you pass.

Most of this information is on the wiki by the way (including much of what is generating confusion here).

The only thing that is still not clear is wether the persuasion skill is an independent check or how exactly it influences the check. Keep in mind that this is pretty much irrelevant for most players, but, If anyone's willing to go through the trouble of testing, I already pointed out the methood:


Still, there is only 1 way to check for sure:

1 - Edit a character down to 1 or 0 in the relevant stat (with 0 persuasion).
2 - Increase the relevant stat until it's possible to pass the check.
3 - Add 1 persuasion
4 - Lower the stat until it is no longer possible to pass the check

If at step 4, lowering the stat by 1 fails the check, you are correct that it is independent from the stat. If it does not, then it is not independent from the stat (unless it doesn't fail all the way to 0, in which case you will need to test at a more difficult check)."


I'd do it, but I don't really plan on going back to divinity untill a large mod or patch draws my interest back to it.

Last edited by NeoAnubis; 17/10/17 02:22 PM.
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Already posted my testing results in this thread.

But I can only go from 10 to around 35 in attribute check at the 2nd Act when I did testing (with characters that were respeced on ship to 10 in all attributes and 0 skills).

As far as testing shows, attribute requirement is only used in border case on specific persuasion level, while it auto-fails or auto-succeeds if it is higher or lower, with no impact from attribute stat.

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I know you did, but as stated, those numbers by their own are not enough to prove or disprove anything.

The best way to test would be using a mod or cheat engine to propperly alter the atributes as needed, especially to lower something to 0.

Edit: to avoid having to argue the same things over and over I'll do the testing and post the results in a few minutes.

Link : http://larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=631817&#Post631817

I created a new thread with the results on "Help/Tips/Tricks" to avoid it getting lost among these replies.

Short version is:
It appears that checks need X persuasion to pass, or X-1 persuasion and up to # of the relevant attribute.

Cheers.

Last edited by NeoAnubis; 18/10/17 01:41 AM.

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