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A "full physical party" doesn't mean anything. You could have had 2-3 Rangers and a Warrior to go along with your Rogue, and they would have been the ones doing all of the work up until the point where itemization took over and the Rogue started dealing actual damage compared to everyone else.

It's funny that you keep insisting it's "not much worse" when it clearly is. There's a drastic difference up until level 17 between 0 Warfare and 5-10. Scoundrel does not make up for it at all. I just finished an all physical group that had a Rogue, and as soon as the option to respec was available I used it to test out the damage. All Scoundrel was awful. I did the same thing at level 15 mixing in Dual Wield (which is crap and only removes the off hand penalty by 50%) and the damge was still significantly worse. It's still worse even later with better gear, but not as bad, but that has more to do with itemization than anything.

You aren't asking for balance, you're asking to make everyone equally awful in a game that grossly favors all physical because the mechanics have been busted from day one.

Originally Posted by MadDemiurg
Magic is not "bad", although some stuff could use adjustments so that more options would become viable. Mages can do ok (in a sense they can beat encounters too), but it's objectively a lot more work than physical and suboptimal in every way. But imo that's what game is supposed to be on tactician. Meanwhile, regardless of how you put it, physical puts out a ridiculous amount of damage and requires little tactics or adapting to specific encounters. If facerolling encounters is the definition of "fun", yes physical does not need nerfs. But I would suggest classical or explorer for this experience.


Yes, yes it is. It has nothing to do with Tactician either, because it's still a comparative slog trying to play an elemental caster compared to anything physical even on Classic. There are some encounters where they can all unload (Radeka is one of the few) because the enemies are all within a close proximity, or funnel towards you and become bunched up, but most encounters are not like that. Most encounters have enemies that only come in pairs, and the only time they bunch up is when you're taking a long time to kill them in the first place.

Magic not only has to deal with magic armor (that loves to come in higher quantities than physical on most enemies), it has to deal with the surplus of 50% - 100% resists that physical don't have to contend with. Know what happens when you try doing the Gargoyle's Maze with 2x Pyro/Geo and 2x Hydro/Aero? Have fun reloading to an earlier save because the very first encounter has three enemies that are 100% Poison and Fire Immune.

Edit: If you're counting Summoning, then technically no, "magic" isn't bad. Just everything that isn't Summoning and the tier 1-2 Geo and Hydro spells are. You're also 100% exaggerating about the damage physical does. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it until the back end of the game and that has everything to do with itemization.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 08/10/17 03:35 PM.
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As I said 10 scoundrel is 33% dps boost vs 50% of 10 warfare. Anything else is anecdotal evidence. I played with a full physical party and rogue outdamages even the ranger once you outlevel the houndmaster and the op uinique Ifan's crossbow and buy decent daggers.

Dual wield does not even remove the offhand penalty btw, so I think you're really confused on how damage is actually calculated.

If you're worried about scoundrel getting worse than knight/ranger with this nerf, it's gonna hit them way more as I said earlier.

And about "equally awful", the game is doable even with a full mage party, but then it actually starts resembling something challenging.

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Originally Posted by MadDemiurg
And about "equally awful", the game is doable even with a full mage party, but then it actually starts resembling something challenging.


Have you done this? As I said, if you're counting Summoning, then "magic" is fine. I also don't understand why your definition of a "challenge" is simply inflation of a different kind. Taking longer to kill something and having to wait on very long cooldowns isn't a challenge. There's no tactic that will circumvent 100% immunities other than simply not using that element in the first place either; which goes against building them in a specific way at all. Without prior knowledge to these kinds of encounters, it's an automatic reload. Before the mirror becomes available, it also means you're forced to use weapons that you'll do less damage with by default, but you have to use them because they are the only way to deal damage.

You're still grossly dismissing the difference between Scoundrel and Warfare, especially early game. You don't start out with 10 in either and until the teens, a 20% damage boost is huge. It also makes Battle Stomp completely unusable on a Rogue.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 08/10/17 03:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sanctuary
If Scoundrel/Dual Wielding actually worked, people would put points into it now and it clearly doesn't. Not just because Warfare is better, but because the other two options suck until Warfare is maxed. Rogues do pathetic damage without Warfare and neither Warriors or Rogues start doing really high damage until the later half of Act 2 when the game is over half finished.


I am playing Classic difficulty with a Dual-wielding specialized Rogue with 0 base Warfare (I might have +1 from a piece of equipment) and I am finding my contribution to be quite effective in mid-act 2 (level 12). No, it's not as powerful per hit as my 2H knight, but it's certainly competitive and I have a 51% chance to dodge physical attacks as well.

There is a difference between min-maxed out the wazoo for uber ultimate elite damage and pathetic. You either do not understand this concept, or you have not actually played a Rogue.

***

I'm not calling for a nerf on the power of warfare, just on it affecting bow, dagger and necromancy skills better than points in the actual abilities which are meant to increase those skills power.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
There is a difference between min-maxed out the wazoo for uber ultimate elite damage and pathetic. You either do not understand this concept, or you have not actually played a Rogue.


Not everyone plays games nonchalantly either. I don't know if that's how you play, but why complain about about those that actually do care about how well their characters perform?

No, I haven't actually played a Rogue.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....249A35A3ED364386075448CF0F14270660AB4EB/

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I'm not calling for a nerf on the power of warfare, just on it affecting bow, dagger and necromancy skills better than points in the actual abilities which are meant to increase those skills power.


So then how about asking for them to be raised to a similar level instead? Because in their default forms they aren't comparable. Complaining about Warfare in the end though is about like complaining how the stats currently work. They're all screwed up and stripped down versions of what they were in the previous game. Warfare is just another symptom of that.

Also, dodging is mostly irrelevant in this game, and the fact that your Rogue isn't doing as much damage as your Two-Handed Warrior at level 12 speaks volumes. Warriors are at the low end of the damage spectrum for the physical builds until much later. Especially with the AP tax.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 08/10/17 04:17 PM.
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In my previous pt my lone wolf scoundrel who had 2 or 4 warfare and other points into dualwield and scoundrel destroyed enemy armor with backlash + basic attack on tactician, unless it was a shielded enemy.

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Originally Posted by Kawall
In my previous pt my lone wolf scoundrel who had 2 or 4 warfare and other points into dualwield and scoundrel destroyed enemy armor with backlash + basic attack on tactician, unless it was a shielded enemy.


More Lone Wolf "proof" for everything being fine, hurray. Everyone should know by now how Lone Wolf inflates everything, and that a Lone Wolf duo is much stronger than a party of four.

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I fail to see how a 20% damage boost moves battle stomp from unusable to good.

The damage is too high, because in most encounters you can destroy armor and CC enemies turn 1 easily, even bosses.

I've played with a full mage party with only 1 summoner, it was perfectly doable, but you actually want loremaster to check enemy resistances and play accordingly. In some places I feel like resistances are bit overdone but overall it's not that bad. You don't need to respec your mages either, just make sure you cover all elements with your party as well as each mage having some proficiency in 2-3 and/or having some useful support abilities memorized when he can't contribute much damage.

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Originally Posted by Sanctuary
If Scoundrel/Dual Wielding actually worked, people would put points into it now and it clearly doesn't. Not just because Warfare is better, but because the other two options suck until Warfare is maxed. Rogues do pathetic damage without Warfare and neither Warriors or Rogues start doing really high damage until the later half of Act 2 when the game is over half finished.


Originally Posted by Stabbey
I am playing Classic difficulty with a Dual-wielding specialized Rogue with 0 base Warfare (I might have +1 from a piece of equipment) and I am finding my contribution to be quite effective in mid-act 2 (level 12). No, it's not as powerful per hit as my 2H knight, but it's certainly competitive and I have a 51% chance to dodge physical attacks as well.

There is a difference between min-maxed out the wazoo for uber ultimate elite damage and pathetic. You either do not understand this concept, or you have not actually played a Rogue.

***

I'm not calling for a nerf on the power of warfare, just on it affecting bow, dagger and necromancy skills better than points in the actual abilities which are meant to increase those skills power.


On my first playthrough, on Classic, I got through the game with a party of four - probably the epitome of suboptimal builds. I had a Ranger with Huntsman and Ranged (no Warfare), I had a Rogue with Scoundrel and Dual Wielding (no Warfare), a "tank" with Leadership and Single Handed and a mage with Pyro and Geo. The Ranger and the Rogue, even with their suboptimal builds easily carried me through the game. The mage, as a main character, albeit arguably well-built, and the "tank" were, frankly, fucking shit.

The point here being that physical damage classes are nuts even when poorly built and without Warfare.

As you know, this is my pet peeve.

Carry on.

Originally Posted by vometia
Edit: removed my response: it probably wasn't very helpful either.


It really wasn't. Surely you acknowledge the fact that the game is not perfect and this itself is evidenced by the very fact that there is a discussion?

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Originally Posted by MadDemiurg
I fail to see how a 20% damage boost moves battle stomp from unusable to good.

The damage is too high, because in most encounters you can destroy armor and CC enemies turn 1 easily, even bosses.

I've played with a full mage party with only 1 summoner, it was perfectly doable, but you actually want loremaster to check enemy resistances and play accordingly. In some places I feel like resistances are bit overdone but overall it's not that bad. You don't need to respec your mages either, just make sure you cover all elements with your party as well as each mage having some proficiency in 2-3 and/or having some useful support abilities memorized when he can't contribute much damage.


With a single Rogue you aren't doing this for a while. Battle Stomp is one of the few skills that greatly favors a Two-Handed weapon. That, and Tentacle Lash. Most of the other "on hit" Warfare skills crit from behind, but Battle Stomp isn't one of them. You need it to deal good base damage, and that doesn't happen without Warfare on a Rogue. You cannot strip the physical armor in a single hit of anything other than a caster with that until midway through Act 2. But since casters are not typically within close proximity of one another, it's better to simply kill the one you're targeting than knock it down.

I really don't know what game some of you are playing, but Acts 1 and 2 are the largest portions of the game, and the "problems" don't really even happen until after that point. It's as though you're only rembering the last third of the game instead of everything up until then. Otherwise, physical classes are mostly balanced (the advantage going to the Ranger) and damage dealing casters just suck all around. Without Warfare working the way it currently does without raising the other skills up, most everyone will simply underperform the same.

The only thing challenging about that is having the desire to continue playing.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 08/10/17 05:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sanctuary
Originally Posted by MadDemiurg
I fail to see how a 20% damage boost moves battle stomp from unusable to good.

The damage is too high, because in most encounters you can destroy armor and CC enemies turn 1 easily, even bosses.

I've played with a full mage party with only 1 summoner, it was perfectly doable, but you actually want loremaster to check enemy resistances and play accordingly. In some places I feel like resistances are bit overdone but overall it's not that bad. You don't need to respec your mages either, just make sure you cover all elements with your party as well as each mage having some proficiency in 2-3 and/or having some useful support abilities memorized when he can't contribute much damage.


With a single Rogue you aren't doing this for a while. Battle Stomp is one of the few skills that greatly favors a Two-Handed weapon. That, and Tentacle Lash. Most of the other "on hit" Warfare skills crit from behind, but Battle Stomp isn't one of them. You need it to deal good base damage, and that doesn't happen without Warfare on a Rogue. You cannot strip the physical armor in a single hit of anything other than a caster with that until midway through Act 2. But since casters are not typically within close proximity of one another, it's better to simply kill the one you're targeting than knock it down.

I really don't know what game some of you are playing, but Acts 1 and 2 are the largest portions of the game, and the "problems" don't really even happen until after that point. It's as though you're only rembering the last third of the game instead of everything up to that point.


First of all, I'm not talking single rouge. You can destroy physical armor with 1 char and then CC with another, potentially in aoe. Secondly, you can easily destroy physical armor on non boss enemies with elf rogue if you use flesh sacrifice and adrenaline cause you get 2-2.5(backlash or flurry if within the pawn range) hits and then use your CC. 20% less damage won't change that. As for mage mobs, my rogue was just killing some of them in 1 turn with adrenaline late act 1 (yes, on tactician with no LW). The only thing you need to ensure is that you have level appropriate daggers. I had some problems in the damage department earlygame 2 until i figured you shouldn't be running with level 1 weapons at level 4.

Last edited by MadDemiurg; 08/10/17 05:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by MadDemiurg

First of all, I'm not talking single rouge.


Well I was, and that's actually more relevant when discussing Warfare.

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You can destroy physical armor with 1 char and then CC with another, potentially in aoe.


Or you can destroy physical armor and CC with one character and one action instead of needing two characters to do so.

Alternatively you can simply outright kill something at range with Ballistic Shot + Barrage or auto attacks.

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Secondly, you can easily destroy physical armor on non boss enemies with elf rogue if you use flesh sacrifice and adrenaline cause you get 2-2.5(backlash or flurry if within the pawn range) hits and then use your CC. 20% less damage won't change that.


Yes it will, especially for Battle Stomp, which again doesn't crit. I know how to kill single targets with a Rogue, and that's not what was being discussed. Backlash > Rutpture Tendons > Chicken used to be able to take out any non boss enemy in the game and was the go to combo for about half of the game. I don't know how it is now, but that's how it used to work. The first two hits crit too, removed armor, and it was using single target abilities, which deal more damage by default anyway.

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As for mage mobs, my rogue was just killing some of them in 1 turn with adrenaline late act 1 (yes, on tactician with no LW). The only thing you need to ensure is that you have level appropriate daggers. I had some problems in the damage department earlygame 2 until i figured you shouldn't be running with level 1 weapons at level 4.


What exactly is being argued here?

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It's being argued that rogues will be doing more than enough damage even after suggested warfare change. Killing mobs in 1 turn with 1 char is not something that should be easily doable on tactician, not without some combos anyway.

You also keep repeating how it would make some things not viable for them compared to rangers and knights, when rangers and knights will be nerfed way more early game by this, since scoundrel/2h will be the next best thing for damage when you have high crit chance, but they won't get it until later unlike rogues who have 100% crit chance from start. And things like battle stomp will be nerfed in equal measure for everyone, as knights get the very same warfare damage bonus.

If you're thinking the game would become too hard with physical damage dealers nerfed across the board, let's agree to disagree but I find the game to be way too easy with them.

Last edited by MadDemiurg; 08/10/17 05:49 PM.
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People putting points in dual wield are simply doing it wrong. Dual wield is additive with strength or whatever you are using. The formula goes like this.

Stat + Dual wield or 1 hander or ranged etc.

X

Elemental damage (warfare is elemental bonus for physical, like Hydrosophist is for water).

X

Crit bonus + high ground bonus if you get it.

If your mages are sucking, you are building them wrong, just like the melee character that isn't taking warfare.

As a mage, you have two primary stats. The stat for your element, and Huntsman. If you max both of these, Your area of effect spells will wipe out entire groups of enemies.

How do they fix this and make it more intuitive? I don't know. They would have to revamp the entire system.

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Well I played 4 man group up to mid act 2 and my scoundrel was good. Just had 1 point in warfare for battlestomp and crippling blow and it was dealing good damage not much as 2h or ranger but it was still good.

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warfare multiplicatively scaling all physical damage (including that from necro spells) almost looks like a bug or a rash last-minute decision, because it doesn't make any sense balance-wise. it should only scale warfare skills, and weapon damage should be scaled (multiplicatively) by the appropriate weapon ability. this way as a warrior you'd pump str unconditionally for additive bonus, but then you'd have to choose between 1h and 2h for a larger multiplicative bonus, and put some points into wf for high-tier skills, instead of just dumping everything into it.

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I suspect the weapon skills used to be a 4th category. I think it would be good to add weapon to elemental skills before multiplying, instead of base stat. (warfare is the physical elemental skill).

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Originally Posted by vometia
I'm not sure I have any enthusiasm for yet more stuff being nerfed: there's been so many calls for it over the months and several have been acted on which I think have made the game noticeably less fun in the process. I'd rather see other stuff being boosted than risk creeping insipidity.


yes.

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