Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Sep 2017
K
stranger
Offline
stranger
K
Joined: Sep 2017
Insane scaling combined with RNG item drops combined with finite item drops combined with RNG item stats combined with no ingame way to alter those RNG stats have all mixed together to create one of the worst gearing systems I have personally ever had inflicted on me.

I hope either the guy doing Crafting Overhaul or someone else mods a way to edit stats on items AND some way to level items that you like so you can keep using them. CE is an option for this now, for those of you not allergic to using it, but an ingame way to do it would feel better (as long as the method is streamlined and unobtrusive).

Joined: Sep 2017
M
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
M
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Mermaid
I think you need to acknowledge that this is a pet peeve of yours. You may not like randomisation, but other people do, and there is nothing objectively wrong with it.

Yeah, it is.
Not one born by mere feelings, though.
It's a dislike caused mostly by my love for good design.

I have yet to hear a single good argument in favor of randomized itemization in any RPG.
The go-to flagship argument seems to be "When everything is random you are constantly surprised", which is countered by the sad reality of it: "when every item is randomized and easily disposable, every single find feels equally generic and often worthless".

In Baldur's Gate 2 you could find a +3 talking longsword near the tavern in Amn. I still remember that item, I still remember how you could go half of the game before having some NET upgrade over it (rather than few comparably good alternate options). I didn't play BG2 in the last four years.

It was useful, it was memorable, it was funny. It was also something I could plan a future playthrough around. "Hey, I know I have *that* specific item there, I'll give it to Character X and for Character Y I'll get that other weapon instead".

In this game I couldn't tell you a single item I'm equipping now on my party, in my current campaign, without loading my game and checking.
I'm also confident it wouldn't matter even if I did, because one level from now I'll have to replace it, if the RNG will allow it.


Here's one: the argument is that randomised loot increases replayability because each playthrough is going to be different. You may not agree with this argument, but you have to acknowledge the fact that this is a view held by not an insignificant part of the gaming community and with good reason. Yes, the system has some of the drawbacks that you mentioned, but it also has certain advantages over a strictly fixed loot system. You may like a fixed loot system, but half the people like a randomised loot system. Ipso facto that is a matter of taste, not a matter of good/bad design. A well-executed randomised loot system ensures infinite replayability, but it is obviously not going to be absolutely everyone's cup of tea.

But even then the game also has Unique items with fixed stats. Not all loot is randomised. Unique items are among the most powerful in the game. If you have not yet found them then you should be doing more exploration. If anything, I disagree with this approach because I know where the best item for build X is to be found on every playthrough. Boring. You may disagree with me, but this does not make my view any less valid.

Finally, this is not a loot based RPG. Loot plays a very small role in this game. I said in a different thread that in one of my playthroughs I realised in Arx that one of my dudes was still wearing a level 3 Migo's Breastplate. Surely if that extra xxx magical + physical armour was such a game breaker than it must have been replaced several levels ago? But it isn't, and even with all the infamous stat inflation you can absolutely breeze through the game on Tactician without ever visiting a vendor. The only items of any significance are weapons for physical damage dealers. So long as you have a solid build you have a solid run. Suggesting that you "have to" visit a vendor every other level is pure bollocks. You don't. In my last playthrough I ran entire Arx looking for a new 2 Hander for my warrior when I hit level 22. All the vendors were selling total garbage so I did not manage to find one. I'll equip Anathema - I thought, but when I got to the final boss I forgot to do it. I still beat him on turn 1 with my shitty outlevelled green 2 Hander.

Look, I get you. You find the loot system unfulfilling. That's a valid view to hold - but you must equally acknowledge that this is a consequence of your needs as an individual and not a matter of bad design as such.

Does it mean that the loot system is perfect? Of course not. But it is robust. You may not like it, but others do, and it works just fine.

Joined: Sep 2017
C
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
C
Joined: Sep 2017
Saying half the people prefer randomized loot seems like a made up statistic to me. And of those who think they do, have they ever played a game with good hand-placed loot?

Itemization seems to be something that devs have largely stopped bothering with. Throw a handful of stats into a randomizer and call it a day seems to be the norm.

Edit: The sad thing is there *IS* some fairly interesting hand-placed stuff in this game. But the scaling comepletely negates its impact by immediately making it useless. Combined with the godly stock from vendors it makes finding things deeply unsatisfying.

Last edited by Cronstintein; 10/10/17 02:35 AM.
Joined: Sep 2017
M
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
M
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Cronstintein
Saying half the people prefer randomized loot seems like a made up statistic to me. And of those who think they do, have they ever played a game with good hand-placed loot?

Itemization seems to be something that devs have largely stopped bothering with. Throw a handful of stats into a randomizer and call it a day seems to be the norm.

Edit: The sad thing is there *IS* some fairly interesting hand-placed stuff in this game. But the scaling comepletely negates its impact by immediately making it useless. Combined with the godly stock from vendors it makes finding things deeply unsatisfying.


It is irrelevant what the specific proportion is - that is a strawman. What is relevant is that, on objective grounds, that is a valid view to hold. It is a tried and tested method and, no, not everyone likes it, but there are valid grounds for liking either approach.

By the way, I have been playing RPGs for close to 20 years and I have never played one that has a hand-placed loot system that is strictly better than a randomised system. Nevertheless, this, again, deviates from the point. Some people prefer randomised loot as a concept, while other people prefer hand-picked loot as a concept. The best super-duper hand-picked loot system is not going to appease someone who prefers randomised loot. Both views are valid. The way either system is implemented is what really matters. I would not say that the implementation in this game is bad - and this is coming from someone who does not hold a firm view on either fixed or randomised loot.

And no, scaling does not destroy itemisation. Generally speaking, randomised, scaled, loot provides more armour. Unique loot provides more stats. Having a tradeoff and the choice that this provides is much better than just having one strictly best item in the game for any given slot. If you think that you +5 main stat item is useless because another item provides you more armour then feel free to go for it, but other people prefer damage over survivability.

Joined: Oct 2017
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2017
Let's say there is an EE version of the game. They could start by slowing down power progression of items - I would be happy with that. Right now item power is progressing way too fast with level.

We can always defend either randomized or fixed loot by pointing out the benefits of each. "Randomized loot" by itself is not the problem. The real problem here to me is the randomized loot in this game just doesn't go along very well with how fast item power progresses. Combined with the fact that you can't really "farm" for gears. And also, personally, I find tactician mode challenging enough that it's hard to just "take it easy" with the whole gear-hunting business. Unless you're going with 2 Lone Wolves and some other broken stuff...

As for the "why this STR-based chest piece adds INT???" kind of issue, it did come up from time to time during my playthrough. But then, I always realized that, it was an issue because my bruiser was a pure fighter. There are definitely hybrid builds that rely on both STR and INT. Also, it's not a big deal to bump your mage's STR a few points (4?) to let him equip that chest piece. Why would I want to do that? Maybe because I want to get a bit more Phys Armor on him, since his Mag Armor is already good? It's totally legit.

So, slowing down power progression of items should help mitigating the trouble with RNG. You can wait for longer until you get the right stuff for your chars. I admit, always having to hunt for stuff every level was somewhat of a hassle, even though I managed to adjust over time.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 10/10/17 04:35 AM.

"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Joined: Sep 2017
S
stranger
Offline
stranger
S
Joined: Sep 2017
RNG can be fine in games where you have infinite ways of having loots. In DOS, there's a finite number of monsters & treasure chest to loot from, even the merchants refresh from leveling is limited (especially in Act 3 and Act 4). If RNG screwed you, then you're done for that playthrough.
It's not gamebreaking by any means because the game doesnt punish you too hard and you dont need min.maxed gear to finish the game even on tactician but still..

You have to adapt your chars build to the gear the RNG throws at you and not the other way around, which can be frustrating.


Last edited by Saitoh; 10/10/17 04:48 AM.
Joined: Oct 2017
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2017
Originally Posted by Saitoh

You have to adapt your chars build to the gear the RNG throws at you and not the other way around, which can be frustrating.


That's essentially what happened in my playthrough. I'd say that, "That's where the respec mirror comes in handy". I admit I abused it during my playthrough, but I do find that rather casual. "This new ring is awesome, but I would lose that +1 Necro. So all I need to do is go back to the respec mirror and bump my Necro up by 1 point to compensate." It adds a lot of flexibility, true, but at the same time, it feels casual.


"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Joined: Sep 2017
M
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
M
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Saitoh
RNG can be fine in games where you have infinite ways of having loots. In DOS, there's a finite number of monsters & treasure chest to loot from, even the merchants refresh from leveling is limited (especially in Act 3 and Act 4). If RNG screwed you, then you're done for that playthrough.
It's not gamebreaking by any means because the game doesnt punish you too hard and you dont need min.maxed gear to finish the game even on tactician but still..

You have to adapt your chars build to the gear the RNG throws at you and not the other way around, which can be frustrating.


Originally Posted by Try2Handing
Originally Posted by Saitoh

You have to adapt your chars build to the gear the RNG throws at you and not the other way around, which can be frustrating.


That's essentially what happened in my playthrough. I'd say that, "That's where the respec mirror comes in handy". I admit I abused it during my playthrough, but I do find that rather casual. "This new ring is awesome, but I would lose that +1 Necro. So all I need to do is go back to the respec mirror and bump my Necro up by 1 point to compensate." It adds a lot of flexibility, true, but at the same time, it feels casual.


So you finally realised that you are not the bad-ass motherfuckers that can walk your way through the highest difficulty setting in an RPG at a whim. I am disappointed.

Joined: May 2010
Location: Oxford
Duchess of Gorgombert
Offline
Duchess of Gorgombert
Joined: May 2010
Location: Oxford
Originally Posted by Cronstintein
Finding unique, cool items that change a character is fun. Having to replace 40 items every 3-5 fights is not fun.

On the plus side, at least it's not as anti-fun as the Locker Room Hell of the original Mass Effect: reequipping my team seldom felt like anything other than a chore, and a particularly fiddly one at that.

Originally Posted by Stabbey
I think someone had the interesting suggestion to have the Armor and Damage values of Unique items scale with player level. I think that's an interesting idea.

Definitely something they should look into; even if it requires a moderate amount of re-crafting to make it make sense rather than "my armour magically got better". People have not unreasonably complained that Braccus' armour set is junk by the time you can actually wear it.


J'aime le fromage.
Joined: Sep 2017
M
stranger
Offline
stranger
M
Joined: Sep 2017
I don't understand this type of post. OP do you realize this game is singleplayer? It's not supposed to be balanced. Balancing it would make it boring. And about the scaling. Just mod the game yourself. Larian has provided us with an incredibly easy to mod engine. Play with these values in Data.txt:

key "FirstVitalityLeapLevel","9"
key "FirstVitalityLeapGrowth","1.25"
key "SecondVitalityLeapLevel","13"
key "SecondVitalityLeapGrowth","1.5"
key "ThirdVitalityLeapLevel","16"
key "ThirdVitalityLeapGrowth","1.25"
key "FourthVitalityLeapLevel","18"
key "FourthVitalityLeapGrowth","1.5"

And you will eventually get a more steady and normalized leveling progression. It's that easy. And to quote sven: "Mods fix what we fucked up." Stop whining daily, and fix this stuff yourself.

Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Tuco Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Originally Posted by Mermaid

Here's one: the argument is that randomised loot increases replayability because each playthrough is going to be different.

That's a weak argument, not a good one.
For reasons already pointed. "Every time is different" isn't a quality in itself, if that degree of unpredictability comes with a long list of drawbacks and virtually no advantage.

And even putting aside your completely made-up statistic about how "half of the people loving random loot", we aren't talking about a popularity contest here, but about good core mechanics.
I'd argue randomized loot isn't a great mechanic in general, but more specifically it borders the "dreadful" territory for the way this game implements it.


Quote
Yes, the system has some of the drawbacks that you mentioned, but it also has certain advantages over a strictly fixed loot system.

Can't genuinely think of one.
MAYBE the fact it spares the developers the work of designing and hand-placing unique items, but that's also questionable. I wonder how much work went in (clearly unsuccessful) attempts to tweak the item generator over and over in the past months.

Quote
A well-executed randomised loot system ensures infinite replayability, but it is obviously not going to be absolutely everyone's cup of tea.

You keep re-proposing the same (weak) argument over and over, but stating something boldly doesn't turn it true.
I have no idea in what ways having generic items rather than designed ones should "give you infinite replayability".
It's not something that increases the amount of content in the game. It just waters it down.
I've never seen anyone replaying a game with random loot thinking "Woah, can't wait to see what the random generators will give me this time". If anything, the opposite tends to happen. Speedrunners and theorycrafters typically love some degree of predictability to plan around for any subsequent playthrough.

Quote
But even then the game also has Unique items with fixed stats. Not all loot is randomised. Unique items are among the most powerful in the game. If you have not yet found them then you should be doing more exploration.

I almost finished the game at this point. Unique items are trash. By the beginning of the game thay may occasionally be useful, for a whopping 20 minutes each before you'll need to replace them. By half of the campaign, even more if you played enough side content "doing more exploration" you'll cross most of them when you already out-leveled them badly.
That's another problem Larian apparently failed to foresee.
I remember when they announced during EA that they were going to "add a lot more Unique items in the game" and fearing this could happen.
Putting "unique items" in your game AND STILL sticking to randomized loot for the most part makes the former useless.
Unique items are meaningful when they are remarkable, not when they are constantly outclassed.

Quote
Finally, this is not a loot based RPG. Loot plays a very small role in this game.

No, that's a big part of the problem. It shouldn't be, but that's precisely what this system is making it.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Joined: Oct 2017
M
stranger
Offline
stranger
M
Joined: Oct 2017
The answer to your question is simple. Scaling random items and random loot is easy to implement. Set scaling parameters, throw in RNG's and *puff* you have taken care of designing gear throughout the whole game problem.

On the other hand, going over the game itself and placing specific unique loot requires a lot of thought and work.

I do not like this lazy approach either, this in not a hack and slash rpg. Sure, you can throw in some random items at vendors and loots, AFTER you place carefully planned items throughout the world, and do it in a waya diverse party of 4 with diverse skillsets can benefit from.

Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Kiev, Ukraine
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Kiev, Ukraine
I felt crafting is useless, except scrolls in rare occasions.
Maybe "Armour of the Eternals" is one worth is craft smile

There are many great end game unique items though.
The most value of uniques is that they give more then the divines and +5 to stat / immunity

Item randomization worked fine for me, I don't recall anything stupid. (e.g.: bow with + to two handed)

Joined: Sep 2017
S
stranger
Offline
stranger
S
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Mermaid
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Mermaid
I think you need to acknowledge that this is a pet peeve of yours. You may not like randomisation, but other people do, and there is nothing objectively wrong with it.

Yeah, it is.
Not one born by mere feelings, though.
It's a dislike caused mostly by my love for good design.

I have yet to hear a single good argument in favor of randomized itemization in any RPG.
The go-to flagship argument seems to be "When everything is random you are constantly surprised", which is countered by the sad reality of it: "when every item is randomized and easily disposable, every single find feels equally generic and often worthless".

In Baldur's Gate 2 you could find a +3 talking longsword near the tavern in Amn. I still remember that item, I still remember how you could go half of the game before having some NET upgrade over it (rather than few comparably good alternate options). I didn't play BG2 in the last four years.

It was useful, it was memorable, it was funny. It was also something I could plan a future playthrough around. "Hey, I know I have *that* specific item there, I'll give it to Character X and for Character Y I'll get that other weapon instead".

In this game I couldn't tell you a single item I'm equipping now on my party, in my current campaign, without loading my game and checking.
I'm also confident it wouldn't matter even if I did, because one level from now I'll have to replace it, if the RNG will allow it.


Here's one: the argument is that randomised loot increases replayability because each playthrough is going to be different.


No it won't, you're going to find the same exact items with just different stats, You know what's the difference beetwen my ranger elf current crossbow and the one he had 20 minutes before? I don't, I just needed a better crossbow (damage wise) in order to keep up with the increase in the enemies armor (it even looks the same), and I'm going to forget that crossbow in 20 minutes once I find a better one.
Now try to play Dark Souls with a greatsword and then with a rapier, that's going to be a really different playthrough (wich is fun and memorable).
You know what's one the best things in Pillars of Eternity? When one particular item allow you to play a specific kind of build that wouldn't be possible without that item (wich is guess what? Fun and memorable), you're going to remember that item as much as every single person that played Dark Souls remembers the zweihander or the other weapons and armors of the game (and this alone is enough to prove wich one is the better system, no one remembers the +2 dexterity gloves they replaced after 5 minutes).
Nobody remeber fondly the incredible amount of random vendor trash you find in The Witcher 3 but strangely enough everybody remembers the unique witcher gear (because you had to put some effort in order to get that gear and you were rewarded with some unique and powerful gear that could last an entire playthrough).
How can I remember the spear of Braccus Rex if not as an example on how unique gear is meaningles when it gets outclassed by something found in a chest ten minutes later?

Last edited by stronzolo; 10/10/17 11:08 AM.
Joined: Aug 2013
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Aug 2013
Bad design is more a question of implementation rather than something to throw around when someone makes a design decision you dislike. Expanding the meta beyond character creation (which is what the Baldur's Gate example ultimately results in, alternatively not creating false choices due to developer neglect of certain item categories) and giving some incentive to spread out your team's equipment dependencies (thus maximizing random equipment drops) are some pretty clear advantages from the top of my head. Especially in a game with free respec, where itemization is one of the few limiting factors remaining. Due to merchant restock (hourly I believe) I don't see it as a major issue overall.

Larian can definitely improve the present system to better realize what their design goal is. For example:

1) Weapons for different builds should not share the same item category for merchants (and likely loot tables). Spears for example are extremely rare due to them being in the same category as Strength two-hander weapons, causing them to be drowned out. This becomes rather clear with merchant logic. Weapons of fundamentally different build categories (in this case Finesse Warfare vs Strength Warfare) should not be competing for the same item category.

There seems to be quite a bit of D:OS1 -> D:OS2 stuff that hasn't been elegantly transitioned in this fashion.

2) Lucky charm creates a loot meta that is kind of annoying. Especially when the game incentivizes a separate barter character to sell the loot picked up by the lucky charm character. (Mitigated by vigilant respec, but thats extremely meta-gamey to the point that it makes me wonder why are they even skills)

3) As others have mentioned a more robust crafting system; at least on par with D:OS1, would allow players to minimize some of the RNG when the RNG is seemingly sabotaging them. (Note: This can create another problem with scaled equipment incentivizing hoarding crafting equipment until late-game for max profits - But opportunity cost is a thing to so mixed bag)

Last edited by IlluminaZero; 10/10/17 11:34 AM.
Joined: Aug 2017
U
stranger
Offline
stranger
U
Joined: Aug 2017
First of all sorry for my english, not my mother languaje and i don't like it really much.

The problem here is not a RNG system vs a handmade system, the problem is that we have a really poor RNG system+a skeany handmade system+ and abbysmal craftting system. The three have to be rebuild in an hipothetical enhanced edition. Lets look them one by one:

RNG system: Someone has told that is a robust system. NO it's not. When 90% of the loot you get is total garbage and the best way to equip is shopping you are doing something terribly wrong. Let try to seak for the main fails:

The power level that the magical atributtes can have is to wide. Lets makes some tiers (It is quite difficult because of the builds variants)
God Tier: Critical Chance, Statues inmunities, Runes slots, Civil habilities (has the sistem works now a civil point is worth nearly 4 combat points)
Good Tier: Stats, Combat habilities, aditional damage
Bad Tier: Status efects, Elemental Resistance, Cleave
Shit Tier: Movement, Dodging, raw HP.
It is obviously not a complete list but can give you and idea. My proposal is make something similar as the diablo Saga has done split the atributtes in Primary and Secondary. God and Good Tier should be consider primary and Bad and Shit should go to secondary. The Item will hace a number of each based on is rarety: Common none, Magic one primary, rare one primary one secondary, Epic two primary one secondary, Legendary two and two, Divine three and two.In adition they should implement some kind of smart loot, simply a two hander can not give +onehanded or finese.
On the other hand i will suggets to put civil habilities out of the equipement is painfull too have a "stealing gear" and change it each time you met a new NPC, and increase the wining of those points to 1 every 3 levels.
The last problem, monsters and exploration loot should be the top tier of the game, vendors have to be nerfed.

Hand made system: Has far as I see they have 2 options, the first one is to make these item scale with your level, lets say you can use a source orb or a dammed sould to do it (WOW crafting is usseful in some way), or you can modify them by giving them a level that didn't depend on where you can find them but trully what they are, I am looking at you Braccus Rex armour. The third option is to change the inflactionary stats sistem but that will supose a full reballancing of the game.

Crafting: You cannot change the crafting system, you have to build it from the ground because is terrible poor. In DOS you have a fucking godlike forge at your disposition, now you can put sharp rocks on a stik ¿WTF you are suposed to reach the divinity with ungabonga weapons?. Crafting should be a civil skill and it should be able to mitigate the RNG of the loot, not give you totaly trash unepic gear. Thing we need to be able to do: Craft non common gear, Enchant it, Put Rune slots in it, been able to break some gear to get new material...

The problem with DOS 2 is that the combat system is soo solid that it can support a terrible gearings system, but it is still a terrible gear system.

Joined: Aug 2014
J
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
J
Joined: Aug 2014
Yes itemization is terrible in the game. You keep finding items which become obsolete very fast due to item level scaling. And I can't fathom why there isn't at least a way to "upgrade" weapons to your level. Maybe with some great gold cost or something. That would AT LEAST make some unique items with more "unique" abilities last longer...

Generally though, a legendary weapon found in the vaults of Braccus Rex should be usable till the end of the game potentially, not useless after 5-6 combats..

Last edited by Jimmious; 10/10/17 12:19 PM.
Joined: Apr 2017
D
member
Offline
member
D
Joined: Apr 2017
For me itemization is the least important bit in an rpg. What is important for me is combat and story (that specific order).
As one of the many who feels they get screwed over by the rng sistem I recomend this -remove all green and blue items from the game and give us more stat points and at least 1 rune slot per white. We should also have to farm gold like crazy for a white with 2 rune slots.

Joined: Jan 2011
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jan 2011
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Mermaid

Here's one: the argument is that randomised loot increases replayability because each playthrough is going to be different.

That's a weak argument, not a good one.


Opinions vary, but I like random loot. I figured this was one was settled years ago. Some hard coded unique drops + Random... way to go. Now can the system be tweaked? Sure. I find the quality too good in general. I like lucky finds, have no problem with more, but the quality doesn't always have to be so high on them.

To note: I greatly reduced level scaling in my play-through. Mileage may vary.

Joined: Sep 2015
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2015
Random items don't facilitate "infinite replayability", quite the opposite - it makes every run feel the same due to the genericness of the equipment. Even Diablo and Diablo-clones have specific items that can drop because it gives a concrete goal to work towards and even open up different builds. Admittedly, D:OS2 doesn't really have 'builds', the attribute system is trivial to the point of wondering why even have attributes, but still. Coupled with the bloat, forcing you to change gear every level, makes for a very sickly equipment system. Even if this "infinite replayability" was somehow true, I don't see how it is a desired trait to *design around*. Every book or movie we consume more than once is such "despite" their lack of randomization, I'd argue the lack of random elements is one of the things which makes them good and worthy of multiple readings/viewings. Make a good and well-thought-out game and the urge to replay it will come naturally, trust me on that.

The problem is Larian's attempt to reinvent the wheel when it doesn't need reinventing (and Swen's stubbornness in his attempts to jam a square peg into a round hole). Either that or they are too stupid and lacking in introspection to see how this system doesn't work with this type of RPG. Or any type of game for that matter, since even Diablo-clones have 'hand-placed' items, only the method with which you acquire them is random. You decide. I don't think they are stupid, though, just misguided.

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5