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People believe the game is unbalanced. When you understand the damage formula's, you can actually build good mages and archers that can out perform 2 handed warrior.

This requires a bit of understanding of the formula for damage. So here goes.

There are 3 groups of numbers that are multiplied togeather, as follows:

1: Stats & dual wield / single handed / ranged. Since stats are the easiest to get, this is the worst place to put anything but stats. 2 hander melee is an exception, because it also contributes to crit. Bottom line: Don't put anything here but stats. 2 hander is the only useful weapon skill.

2: Elemental damage: This category only has one thing in it. Elemental damage from your chosen spell school (hydro, pyro , etc.). Warfare is the elemental damage for physical. It should probably be renamed "Physical".

3: Crit + High ground bonus. To stack crit, you need to either backstab, or have lots of + crit chance gear. This is the second best place to put points. Either scoundrel (and stack + crit gear to at least 80%) or go for Huntsman and be on high ground.


So here are the two badass caster builds.

Max Element (like pyro), Max Huntsman and cast from high ground

or

Max Element (like pyro), Max Scoundrel and stack + crit chance gear & Take Savage Sortilege.

Last edited by emmagine; 09/10/17 04:10 AM.
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Originally Posted by emmagine
People believe the game is unbalanced. When you understand the damage formula's, you can actually build good mages and archers that can out perform 2 handed warrior.

This requires a bit of understanding of the formula for damage. So here goes.

There are 3 groups of numbers that are multiplied togeather, as follows:

1: Stats & dual wield / single handed / ranged. Since stats are the easiest to get, this is the worst place to put anything but stats. 2 hander melee is an exception, because it also contributes to crit. Bottom line: Don't put anything here but stats. 2 hander is the only useful weapon skill.

2: Elemental damage: This category only has one thing in it. Elemental damage from your chosen spell school (hydro, pyro , etc.). Warfare is the elemental damage for physical. It should probably be renamed "Physical".

3: Crit + High ground bonus. To stack crit, you need to either backstab, or have lots of + crit chance gear. This is the second best place to put points. Either scoundrel (and stack + crit gear to at least 80%) or go for Huntsman and be on high ground.


So here are the two badass caster builds.

Max Element (like pyro), Max Huntsman and cast from high ground

or

Max Element (like pyro), Max Scoundrel and stack + crit chance gear & Take Savage Sortilege.



I get what your saying. I think that in this game, there are so many variables, it's really easy to make hybrids work. The armor system is not your typical % chance system. Which I love, I already have plenty of games like that.

The thing about the combat abilities is that they have a lot of variables. I think because of that, the game takes time to really explore. Some people may not want to spend the time on this game. As it is pretty long for a majority of players.

My party set up is similar to what your examples were. They are as follows:
1. Necro Rogue- High damage, healing from necromancy
2. Summoning Cleric- High Int, Enough strength to wear heavier armor, hydro, geo, wand & shield
3. Ranger- high damage, skills to teleport to high ground, and geo skills if needed
4. Polymorph Warrior- med damage tank, warfare, polymorph, scrolls and grenadier

And they all have skills in various skill trees so it's easy to change their builds to test new things out as I level up. Thank you magic mirror, lol

Also, there is a huge variety of skills around level 11. I just started using source skills and it is super fun.


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I agree. You don't need to min-max. But people keep saying 2 handed war is the only thing you CAN min max, and that simply isn't true.

Your examples:

1. Necro Rogue- High damage, healing from necromancy
Stats X Crit, no elemental multiplier. Means you are doing about 1/2 the damage you could be doing if you went Rogue & Warfare.

2. Summoning Cleric- High Int, Enough strength to wear heavier armor, hydro, geo, wand & shield
Summoning are solid. They are on the weaker end of the spectrum of damage, but they allow you to pick whatever you want to go with it.

3. Ranger- high damage, skills to teleport to high ground, and geo skills if needed
Ranger + geo also is missing warfare, so you are doing about 1/2 damage.

4. Polymorph Warrior- med damage tank, warfare, polymorph, scrolls and grenadier

A few ponts in poly I think is good for *anyone* Particularly warrior for tentacle lash etc. Just make sure you are stacking + crit gear. If you aren't going for 2 hander, your second set of points should be in scoundrel, or you are losing about 1/3 damage.

Last edited by emmagine; 09/10/17 05:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by emmagine
People believe the game is unbalanced. When you understand the damage formula's, you can actually build good mages and archers that can out perform 2 handed warrior.


When was this ever debated? It's pretty established that Rangers are the most dominant physical class for the majority of the game. By far.

Regardless, your post didn't offer any actual insight as to why you believe "good mages" can outdo two-handed melee; besides, they can't. All you did was list semi-useful information on where to place stats to actually deal damage at all with a Mage. Problem is, the people who know there's an issue already did this.

Also, true hybrids don't work in this game at all. Having 1-2 points invested in a school that grants buffs, heals or any other non scaling ability isn't really a hybrid. You cannot divide your attributes unless you want to have a character who is crummy at multiple things, where those parts as a whole do not make them comparable to a more focused build.

It's also nothing but a detriment trying to play a character that mixes both elemental damage as well as physical. It really doesn't accomplish anything because of the way the armor system works. You need to be all physical or all elemental per character, or at worst, a Mage with Bouncing Shield in a group that also has at least two physical. Summoners are pretty much the only exception to this rule, but they work better in a group that's either all elemental, or one that has two physical and at least one other that's elemental.

Also, of the two Mage builds you listed at the bottom, the second is much better than the first. Huntsman is good, but it's not that good, especially when there are so many fights where you can't even take advantage of it, either because there is simply no good spots or your spells don't curve to hit. Crit/Scoundrel is the build to use for damage, but having at least a few in Huntsman is a good idea. Rank two at least for Tactical Retreat, and this will give you a 30% bonus when elevated.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 09/10/17 06:30 AM.
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I am currently runing similar level up paterns for my battlemage and wayfarer.

Because I have a battlemage,I have to divert 8 points from Huntsman to Warfare (3),Polymorph (3), Aero(2) whilist keeping Pyro at 10.
Also I was wondering if you could expand your opinion on the notion that a good mage should have access to 2 elements that combo very well (like geo+pyro) to get the most damage.

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Originally Posted by Draco359
I am currently runing similar level up paterns for my battlemage and wayfarer.

Because I have a battlemage,I have to divert 8 points from Huntsman to Warfare (3),Polymorph (3), Aero(2) whilist keeping Pyro at 10.
Also I was wondering if you could expand your opinion on the notion that a good mage should have access to 2 elements that combo very well (like geo+pyro) to get the most damage.


Pyro/Geo are pretty much the only two schools that combo well with each other. Hydro/Aero did really well in the previous game, but they are much worse in this. It's basically about mixing effects to cause chain reactions or explosions. Toss a Geo spell that does earth damage and leaves oil such a Fossil Strike or Impalement, then hit them with a fire spell. The fire spell will deal its damage and also extra by igniting the oil, causing an explosion that deals damage and potentially burning the enemies over a few turns if it ended up doing enough damage to strip their magical armor. You can also ignite poison similarly.

Geo also has the added benefit of being able to either Slow or Cripple enemies as well, so you don't even really need to max it to see a real benefit. The debuffs and explosion damage are good enough that you can have something like 10 Pyro and only 5 in Geo if you wanted. To really deal damage, you need to max Pyromancy, but then you're screwed against fire resistant or immune enemies.

Resistances and elemental damage not scaling with weapons is the primary reason Mages aren't all that good other than from Summoning right now. They can deal damage, but they just don't deal good damage compared to what the physical classes are capable of.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 09/10/17 06:21 AM.
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Makes me wonder if any of that is remotely true.

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I have doubts.

Cause warfare increases all physical damage done, and that's huge.
There is nothing that can increase magic damage in the same way.
+ you need to waste trait on Savage Sortilege.

Warfare is just OP.
Two handed weapon STR build obliterates everything in D:OS 2.

Last edited by Eugen; 09/10/17 08:40 AM. Reason: extended answer
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I already said during EA that the the armor system kind of killed the viability of hydro/aero-combination. Hydro and aero was always low on damage but strong on CC. The armor system favors damage over CC because it nullifies CC. Nobody really cares about electified water now, because the damage is low and it will never 'explode'.

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Warfare IS the elemental damage for physical. The formula puts warfare in the exact same spot as the elemental damage for your mage.

The problem isn't that warfare is over powered. The problem is that people aren't taking high ground and putting points in Huntsman.

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The real problem is that weapons increase the damage of all physical attacks on top of what they get from Warfare, Scoundrel, Huntsman and Weapon Masteries. Mages do not scale with weapons and on top of that have to deal with a bunch of resists throughout the game. Physical doesn't have anything comparable to worry about.

Huntsman has nothing to do with the argument at all either. It's useful, and some don't realize that it affects spells, but then many do know, and it doesn't change how weak elemental damage is aside from a few late game and source hungry spells. The more damaging skills are too AP hungry too, and Elemental Affinity isn't the answer.

Park a Ranger and a Mage with the same Huntsman rank on a ledge after level 17. The Ranger will be auto attacking up to 3000+ non crit (My level 21 non crit auto attacks for 1900 on the ground). That's not even counting Ballistic Shot which can crit for close to 8K near the end of the game. Meanwhile, a Mage might be wanding for 150 - 200 unless they are launching higher AP costing, and longer cooldown spells that will crit for up to 3K on a nice day.

AoE isn't a valid arguement either when most enemies only come in pairs.

Originally Posted by Eugen
I have doubts.

Cause warfare increases all physical damage done, and that's huge.
There is nothing that can increase magic damage in the same way.
+ you need to waste trait on Savage Sortilege.

Warfare is just OP.
Two handed weapon STR build obliterates everything in D:OS 2.


The funny thing is too, people just love to parrot how OP Two-Handed builds are when they are the third strongest of the physical builds until Act 4. Being able to land a huge hit every now and then doesn't matter over the course of a fight compared to what Rogues and especially Rangers are doing.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 09/10/17 01:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by emmagine
Warfare IS the elemental damage for physical. The formula puts warfare in the exact same spot as the elemental damage for your mage.

The problem isn't that warfare is over powered. The problem is that people aren't taking high ground and putting points in Huntsman.


What does your mage do when faced with an oponent that has elemental imunity versus the element your mage specializez in?What does your pyromancer do vs a fire imune oponent?

Originally Posted by Sanctuary
The real problem is that weapons increase the damage of all physical attacks on top of what they get from Warfare, Scoundrel, Huntsman and Weapon Masteries. Mages do not scale with weapons and on top of that have to deal with a bunch of resists throughout the game. Physical doesn't have anything comparable to worry about.

Huntsman has nothing to do with the argument at all either. It's useful, and some don't realize that it affects spells, but then many do know, and it doesn't change how weak elemental damage is aside from a few late game and source hungry spells. The more damaging skills are too AP hungry too, and Elemental Affinity isn't the answer.

Park a Ranger and a Mage with the same Huntsman rank on a ledge after level 17. The Ranger will be auto attacking up to 3000+ non crit (My level 21 non crit auto attacks for 1900 on the ground). That's not even counting Ballistic Shot which can crit for close to 8K near the end of the game. Meanwhile, a Mage might be wanding for 150 - 200 unless they are launching higher AP costing, and longer cooldown spells that will crit for up to 3K on a nice day.

AoE isn't a valid arguement either when most enemies only come in pairs.



Could you also compare dual wield wand vs bow and crossbow, please?

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Originally Posted by Draco359
Could you also compare dual wield wand vs bow and crossbow, please?


It's actually not quite as bad as the figures above, but it's still comparably weak. At 55 INT, 15 in Pyro and two lvl 21 fire wands, (wands scale with the school of the same element) the main hand was hitting for 550 average and the off hand 300 non crit. Wands crit without the Savage Sortilege talent too. With more optimized gear, you could probably get better results, but the difference won't be huge. There's also not really any reason to compare bows to crossbows. Crossbows always do more damage and have a closer damage range (meaning their min - max damage is much less spread out like how the bow is). You get a -1 movement penalty, but it doesn't matter at all.

Sheet damage is only 1106 - 1344 too. It's 70% - 80% higher on the Ranger and Rogue. This is without investing any into the actual Dual Wield Mastery, but I have no idea why you would even do that with a Mage since it's going to raise your damage less on average than the other alternatives.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 09/10/17 02:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sanctuary
The real problem is that weapons increase the damage of all physical attacks on top of what they get from Warfare, Scoundrel, Huntsman and Weapon Masteries. Mages do not scale with weapons and on top of that have to deal with a bunch of resists throughout the game. Physical doesn't have anything comparable to worry about.

Huntsman has nothing to do with the argument at all either. It's useful, and some don't realize that it affects spells, but then many do know, and it doesn't change how weak elemental damage is aside from a few late game and source hungry spells. The more damaging skills are too AP hungry too, and Elemental Affinity isn't the answer.

Park a Ranger and a Mage with the same Huntsman rank on a ledge after level 17. The Ranger will be auto attacking up to 3000+ non crit (My level 21 non crit auto attacks for 1900 on the ground). That's not even counting Ballistic Shot which can crit for close to 8K near the end of the game. Meanwhile, a Mage might be wanding for 150 - 200 unless they are launching higher AP costing, and longer cooldown spells that will crit for up to 3K on a nice day.

AoE isn't a valid arguement either when most enemies only come in pairs.

Originally Posted by Eugen
I have doubts.

Cause warfare increases all physical damage done, and that's huge.
There is nothing that can increase magic damage in the same way.
+ you need to waste trait on Savage Sortilege.

Warfare is just OP.
Two handed weapon STR build obliterates everything in D:OS 2.


The funny thing is too, people just love to parrot how OP Two-Handed builds are when they are the third strongest of the physical builds until Act 4. Being able to land a huge hit every now and then doesn't matter over the course of a fight compared to what Rogues and especially Rangers are doing.


Here, not optimal build, use math. (12-13k hits)
[Linked Image]
Fane, Lone Wolf
260% crit. multiplier from weapon
19k hp
skin graft, tactical retreat, glitter dust, clear mind, uncanny evasion, teleport, battle stomp, crippling blow, whirlwind, challenge, overpower

Kraken needs 3 hits on tactician, and that's not OP... what else do you need?
I merely sharing my user experience and not blabbing.

Last edited by Eugen; 09/10/17 02:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Eugen


Here, not optimal build, use math. (12-13k hits)
[Linked Image]
Fane, Lone Wolf
260% crit. multiplier from weapon
19k hp
skin graft, tactical retreat, glitter dust, clear mind, uncanny evasion, teleport, battle stomp, crippling blow, whirlwind, challenge, overpower

Kraken needs 3 hits on tactician, what else do you need?


Use reading. I said Act 4, which clearly that build is, and you're also using Lone Wolf, which is known to grossly inflate stats. Also, you don't even need to bother with the Kraken when a Rogue can take out Braccus in one turn and everything else along with him.

BRB doing the same thing on my Ranger.

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Well, no problems with killing Braccus in first turn here too, Kraken was just for achievement and like the strongest mob in the game for comparison.
And why you mentioned Rogue, when it has weaker hits?
All pluses are in mobility and backstab (single targer), but that's really it.

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Five minute rush job with the gear on hand:

[Linked Image]

Warriors, especially non Anathema, one-hit-wonders aren't really comparable to what Rangers do the majority of the game. They only creep up near the end of the game and even then are still worse off.

My only point is that even if Warriors can eventually one-shot bosses, it's not exclusive to them, and they also start doing it later than the other physical builds. People sure love to fixate on Two-Handed Warriors for some reason though.

Non Summoner Mages on the other hand are at the bottom of the barrel all the way through.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 09/10/17 03:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by emmagine
Warfare IS the elemental damage for physical. The formula puts warfare in the exact same spot as the elemental damage for your mage.

The problem isn't that warfare is over powered. The problem is that people aren't taking high ground and putting points in Huntsman.
Warfare is multiplicative, Huntsman is additive. Warfare is factually better in every regard for physical builds.

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Originally Posted by Sanctuary
Five minute rush job with the gear on hand:

[Linked Image]

Warriors, especially non Athema, one-hit-wonders aren't really comparable to what Rangers do the majority of the game. They only creep up near the end of the game and even then are still worse off.


A pity there is no char export to arena mode.
Initiative would play big role there smile
I'm doing "for honor", guess damage stat will be better than this.
Comparing to damage - maybe, but really no need in this.
Classic glass cannon, but speed and suitability - lacking.

Thread is about mages laugh

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Originally Posted by Eugen
Classic glass cannon, but speed and suitability - lacking.


I wouldn't use the exact build in that screenshot, because the mobility does suck pretty bad, but it's less needed on a Ranger anyway. My Rogue is sitting at 11.9m (I think the game rounds up, not down, so it would be 12m).

Quote
Thread is about mages laugh


It is, but it's still good to highlight what the other classes are capable of, when Mages can't do this. Well, I keep saying "Mages", but specifically elemental damage based casters.

The real path to power with a "Mage" is Summoner 10 (while using bows + FIN until about half way through Act 2, then respec to INT and spells) > Element 10+ > dumping the rest into a mix of Scoundrel/Huntsman and as high of a critical hit chance you can get. A group of four of those would be a close second, if not tied with a group of four Rangers for a while, and also have an easier time through most of Tactician.

Trying to focus on elemental damage first is just asking for a masochistic playthrough.

Originally Posted by StukaXCII
Originally Posted by emmagine
Warfare IS the elemental damage for physical. The formula puts warfare in the exact same spot as the elemental damage for your mage.

The problem isn't that warfare is over powered. The problem is that people aren't taking high ground and putting points in Huntsman.
Warfare is multiplicative, Huntsman is additive. Warfare is factually better in every regard for physical builds.


Fairly sure Warfare, Huntsman and Scoundrel are all multiplicative. It's the Weapon Masteries that are additive. Of those three however, Warfare capping first is always the best option.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 09/10/17 03:15 PM.
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