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One cc school on Same DR table could be all Cc that prevent control over the character such as Chicken or Knockdown/Stuns.
Another could be all type of slows and snares.
And third, disorient/fear type of spells.


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That shit sounds boring and uninspired.

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What if they made CC reduce a good chunk of armor, while increasing armor/m.def across the board? That way it's not entirely useless until 3 rounds into the fight.

Last edited by Ariel~; 11/10/17 01:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by MadDemiurg
If I were to design a non rng combat system with CC I would most likely just split up HP and CC defense into different pools. This way you can have good CC with low/no damage and high damage that does not enable CC in any way. CC defense would also likely regenerate each turn on its own (partially).


I like it. You're basically making a proper trinity but instead of tanks you have DPS/Support/CC.


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Originally Posted by sehnsucht

Unfortunately, what you proposed is exactly what Larian hates. They implemented the armor system because they don't want CC to rely on RNG factors.

Frankly it's my opinion that this recent obsession that "Anything RNG is TERRIBLE and everything should be 100% predictable" (not just from Larian but also from a certain group in the user base) is completely stupid.

I've seen similar complains for XCOM as well, and they don't make any sense.
It's a system of chances. High chances will work (way) more often than not, and low chances will fail far more frequently.
I don't see what's the problem with it, nor why that's "a problem that should be addressed".

This whole "We are coming up with convoluted systems so no one will ever need to weight his chances" is a textbook example of "Solution in search of a problem".


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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I agree with you. I like games with RNG. Nethack is one of my favorite game of all times.

Though a game without RNG, like chess, could also be deep and tactical. It's more about preference.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by sehnsucht

Unfortunately, what you proposed is exactly what Larian hates. They implemented the armor system because they don't want CC to rely on RNG factors.

Frankly it's my opinion that this recent obsession that "Anything RNG is TERRIBLE and everything should be 100% predictable" (not just from Larian but also from a certain group in the user base) is completely stupid.

I've seen similar complains for XCOM as well, and they don't make any sense.
It's a system of chances. High chances will work (way) more often than not, and low chances will fail far more frequently.
I don't see what's the problem with it, nor why that's "a problem that should be addressed".

This whole "We are coming up with convoluted systems so no one will ever need to weight his chances" is a textbook example of "Solution in search of a problem".


There's many articles on this out there.

Doing a thing with a random chance but a huge payoff isn't some grand tactical decision.

Problems with rng driven games include:
Players being shafted by an unlucky role feeling unfair because they are subjected to them frequently over the course of the game
Winning with lucky rolls isn't representative of tactical decision making or particularly strategic.
Boosting success rates becomes more important than anything
Tactical responses can be meaningless as they're either reducing success rates or just out right negating them and if they're not the later there's no guarantee they'll work.
Best tactics can devolve into just dumping rng stuff on the enemy en masse because any win is a win.
You can't really plan ahead or play with a gamelan (I.e. strategize) because on a round by round basis, you have no idea what will work and you often have to plan for failure or just take the most consistent option (dumping on the enemy).

Xcom is okay with rng because it's built on an oppressive atmosphere and has constant failure as a part of the game. It works okay with occasional skirmishes that are often in your favour, but it falls apart in protracted rpgs.


gambling on some rng cc affect is not a deep strategic decision. It's just a sign of gambling addiction.
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People with mathematical knowledge could win money on blackjack table. RNG could be tamed with right strategy.

It is simply a matter of preference. Both Chess and Bridge are good games.

But rng or not. I'm pretty sure "just dps the shit out of it" like what we have in DOS2 is not good design.

Last edited by sehnsucht; 11/10/17 02:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by sehnsucht
People with mathematical knowledge could win money on blackjack table. RNG could be tamed with right strategy.

I could ask my neighbour since he's the PhD lecturer type, though my eyes tend to glaze over at anything more complicated than the basic algebra I need in day-to-day C programming.


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Originally Posted by sehnsucht
I agree with you. I like games with RNG. Nethack is one of my favorite game of all times.

Though a game without RNG, like chess, could also be deep and tactical. It's more about preference.


The problem is that RNG becomes irrelevant in a game with access to quick save.

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I think the problem doesn't stem entitely from the armor system. People are simply accepting the fact that crowd control has to be such a large aspect of the game, but why? There are something like 30 hard crowd control spells in this game, and that is simply too much. Having that many crowd control skills causes the need for some convoluted armor system in the first place.

This might be blasphemy on a cRPG forum, but look to MMOs for ideas. Modern MMOs have severely limited the use of CC abilities, and I think that's the right move. Right now each character in your party will have at least two CC abilities, but probably closer to three or four with little effort. That's 12 - 16 total CC abilities, which is absurd.

I say a mod that did the following would go a long way to balance the game:

1. Absorb physical and magical armor into health, as an average. So a character with 500 health, 150 physical, and 100 magical would have 625 health.

2. Remove a large number of hard crowd control effects from abilities and items. A dedicated crowd control character should have three different abilities max. Most characters would have one.

3. Every character is immune to hard CC during the first round.

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Originally Posted by Igniz13


There's many articles on this out there.

And if their conclusion is that anything relying on chances is "unfair and terrible" they are probably full of crap.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Taunt/Threat is the CC mechanic in MMORPG raids. In most of the case bosses/mobs would attack your Tanks only. If some adds are fixed on other team members they could probably be kited/nuked/CCed or outmaneuvered by some special mechanics. You need to have full control over bosses and their summons to win.

And if you pay attention to the description, most of the skills apply SOFT cc. e.g. Shocked is -1AP. It requires 2 layers of soft CC (Chilled/Shocked) to make a Stun/Freeze.


Last edited by sehnsucht; 11/10/17 06:13 PM.
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Yeah, but only magical CC needs two layers, which makes physical CC stronger in comparison.

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There is no RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR in RPGs, There is no RANDOM numbers.

There are specific chances and probabilities and that is NOT RANDOM.

Most of you are completely misusing the term and just splurge utter incoherent nonsense.

If RPGs actually had random numbers, then every time you would attempt to do anything at all, the game would assign a completely random chance of success to that action. That would make any leveling up, investment in skills or anything else of the game mechanics completely meaningless.

Obviously that does not happen and its not how RPG games work.


This distorted absurd fallacy comes from the mass market which unfortunately got into playing the "old school" rpgs due to this whole kickstarter crap and then got enormously butthurt because their characters skills dictate chances of success so they "miss" from time to time and just cant comprehend it. They have been trying to undermine foundations of old school RPGs ever since. Its a sort of instinctive reaction built on enormous inane butthurt, ignorance and lack of intelligence due to their utter stupidity and inability to comprehend how TB systems are supposed to work.

They still think its a real time game that just happens in turns... as evident by my last exchange about this same topic with some resident enormous cretins.


Some old school rpg players who should know better aren't helping by repeating that idiotic term of "RNG".

The solution to armor nonsense is now available on nexus too.

https://www.nexusmods.com/divinityoriginalsin2/mods/168/

With a few more mods that remove numbers bloat and improve crafting the game might be playable.


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Originally Posted by Hiver
There is no RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR in RPGs, There is no RANDOM numbers.

There are specific chances and probabilities and that is NOT RANDOM.

Most of you are completely misusing the term and just splurge utter incoherent nonsense.



I think you're getting distracted by the semantics of the definition.

I have a 30% chance to inflict Knocked Down on an enemy with an attack. Can you tell me with absolute certainty, whether my next attack will inflict Knocked Down?



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You're right in that its not RNG. But you're arguing semantics.

People did not like that in Div1 if you missed a stun the entire fight could be changed from a victory to a loss instantly.

This AP system does not give the player a lot of room to move/use abilities/items. Every point really counts. Which is not a problem, but it does make problems when you drag percentage chances to succeed in things.

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Originally Posted by Sytn
People did not like that in Div1 if you missed a stun the entire fight could be changed from a victory to a loss instantly.


This is not true. You can easily boost the chance of CC to 100% or even above in DOS1. There are very few cases where CC chances matter. If you need luck to succeed in CC then you must have chosen a wrong type of CC which you opponents are highly resistant against.

Even if you are losing due to bad luck on Honor mode, You could escape and comeback later, I don't care about resurrection scrolls since I'm drowning in money. Learning to deal with failure and mitigate the risk is what makes games with uncertainty interesting.

Last edited by sehnsucht; 12/10/17 01:57 AM.
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If you lose because of one bad dice roll, you strategy was fucked up from the start.

Also it is probably not what 'people' did not like and more what 'some people' did not like and cried a lot about it.


Body Building and Willpower were Defensive Skills that really gave the feeling of getting stronger and thougher in my opinion.

Also every RPG has limited actions for you. In most of them you even have only one action per turn.

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Originally Posted by sehnsucht
People with mathematical knowledge could win money on blackjack table. RNG could be tamed with right strategy.

It is simply a matter of preference. Both Chess and Bridge are good games.

But rng or not. I'm pretty sure "just dps the shit out of it" like what we have in DOS2 is not good design.


Card counting has no bearing on crpgs. It's completely different environment. The rng driven gameplay people want is more like chess but each attempt at taking a piece only has a 50% success rate.

@tuco that's one of the big problems, it's a big problem. People wanting something that's fair (or fairer) isn't a grand travesty that should be avoided in games.

When you only have 4 character's, having 1 randomly taken out is more impactful than a group of mobs and a boss losing 1/6 mobs. If you have 1-2 it's just a random loss, it wasn't a fault of you or your strategy, you just got punked.

Last edited by Igniz13; 12/10/17 01:29 PM.

gambling on some rng cc affect is not a deep strategic decision. It's just a sign of gambling addiction.
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