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I felt strongly enough about this subject to actually create an account just now so I could come here and post this message to the devs in a small hope they are reading.

It'll be a nice long ranty post most people won't even read other than devs. TLDR at the bottom :P

Quick background about me:

I've been gaming for 30 years, since Super Mario came out on NES. I've played tabletop D&D, all the fun D&D games over the years like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights etc.. including all the Diablos 1, 2 & 3, and pretty much every major MMO release.

So when I heard about this game from a friend I was like hey that sounds right up my alley. I started the game out on Classic mode figuring I would just get a feel for the game and skills then move into Tactician mode as I usually play games on hard or very hard depending on the difficulties.

Classic mode was extremely easy. No challenge whatsoever. Enemies were doing stupid things, didn't seem to hit very hard and typically died in just a few hits. It didn't feel like much fun to play at all and I was looking forward to restarting in tactician mode. I don't think I lost a single party member in any fight and never needed a res scroll.

So I got to maybe level 6 or 7 or something and felt I was familiar enough with the game to go to tactician mode. The game took a huge change from Classic.

All of a sudden not only do enemies have completely ridiculous amounts of unrealistic health and armor ratings, they also do completely insane and stupid amounts of damage. Like one shotting my tank before he can even get to his turn.

I'm sorry guys but that's just complete garbage and BS. You need to have a justifiable reason for how the enemies have so much life, so much armor and do so much damage. You can't just give them more life 'because you said so'. If that Magister has 300 physical armor, he better drop gear with 300 physical armor when he dies. If he is doing 100 damage with a hit, he better be dropping a weapon that gave him that 100 damage.

I immediately got the feeling the only way people are going to win these fights are by using completely niche builds or exploiting stupid AI. In either case that doesn't make for a fun game at all.

I got through Fort Joy on tactician. A few fights were very difficult and I felt like I had to exploit your dumb AI to win. Like blocking the narrow passageway against that girl with the blood flowers and watching all of her followers say "UNGH" or "I'll get you" every turn while you pick em off at range.

Or starting the final battle on Fort Joy against Alexander by teleporting his winged friend to you, leading to a one turn kill. Then teleporting Alexander out to that lone high point out to the left watching the idiot slowly die to my totems.

I feel like I couldn't start out the fight after talking to him as you normally would. Why? Because the first time I talked to him one of his lackeys teleported behind my healer (funny how he instantly knows which on my healer is) and one shot her with a backstab for 400 life. Like wow.... OK............ that's not BS at all.

I beat the encounter on the second fight though using nothing but cheese garbage tactics and it wasn't fun at all.

Did I beat it?

Yes

Did I get any more rewards or loot because of tactician mode?

No

Was it fun?

No

And that's the whole point of games. Is to play them, have a challenge, get rewards and have fun. I'm really confused why there isn't more loot on these guys too. I mean it takes a huge investment on some of these fights of scrolls or potions and you have to keep up on gear upgrades for 4 players as gear is much stronger even just a couple levels higher.

You kill a Magister, who was wielding a weapon and in full armor. What is on his corpse?

Nothing? NOTHING? Why the flying FRACK does this guy have NOTHING? He had 200 armor and 150 spell armor, where the hell is his gear he was wearing? I WANT THAT GEAR! For a game that seems to be going for as much realism as possible every single character that wields armor and weapons should be dropping every piece of gear when he dies. My bags should be overflowing with riches after a fight. Not picking up one piddle squat scroll worth 20 gold and a pitch fork after defeating 5 Magisters.

Someone hit you for 200 damage? Where's his weapon when he dies? Like... seriously!? I want a weapon that does 200 damage per hit!

I thought things would get better getting off that island and going to the next area. Maybe now I can go out into the world and farm up some small encounters, steal some gold and get into good gear finally.

I stole a bit in driftwood, bought some new skills, some new weapons and armor for level 10. I think my characters are pretty damn well geared for level 10 too. My 2 handed tank having 500 life and 150 armor, my healer/cold wizard having 450 life and 315 armor.

But every single fight I get into the enemies are

A) all higher level (11-12)
B) Have twice any of my characters health and armor
C) Hit for 2-3 times the amount of damage I hit for
D) Drop next to nothing when I actually do kill them!

Like seriously guys? What the hell! Even if I do beat an encounters I think ... was that fun? And the answer every time is... NO it wasn't. I'd say every fight I've had and won since I got into driftwood I've had at least one party member die if not two. I'm plowing thru res scrolls.

I found a guy on a beach. He lost his ring. I found his ring. Voidwoken spawn. Oh crap... didn't see that one coming. Cool! A fight!

(Voidwoken goes first)
(Voidwoken teleports to my tank)
*Hit, 350 damage*
*Hit, 350 damage*
(Tank dies)

Are you seriously kidding me right now? Like is that a joke? First turn before I get to even act my tank takes 700 physical damage? What complete utter garbage and nonsense is this. The only way to beat these fights is to know the fights beforehand, prep for them, get into position, trigger the fight, then start with the upper hand as if you're a psychic. You can't just trigger the fights naturally by talking to people or picking things up. It feels wrong and unnatural.

So I'm stuck between this place of:

Classic mode:

Enemies are generally stupid, don't do much damage, game isn't challenging or fun but I could play it just to see the story.

or

Tactician mode:

Enemies use more combos which is cool, but now have 2-3 times your health, deal 2-3 times your damage, and the only way to beat every encounter is to play it first, die, learn the encounter, reload, then prep for the encounter cause the game is so fracking hard you can't just play it straight up. And then still after prepping for the fight having to use 1-2 res scrolls on EVERY encounter because for some godawful uknown reasons they get stupid crap like unlimited amounts of turns with Evasive Aura and still one shot your heroes.

Tactician mode feels completely imbalanced and needs balancing so it's still challenging and difficult, but fun and beatable at the same time.

TLDR:

Enemies do way too much damage (My 2H tank hits for 100 damage, why are enemies hitting him for 200-350 damage?)

Enemies have way too much unexplainable health. Level 12 skeletons with 850hp and 800 armor? vs. my level 10 health of 450 and 200 armor? LOLWUT?

Enemies need to drop WAY MORE LOOT. Especially on tactician mode or harder. If you defeat a human who had 600 armor and 350 spell armor, he better drop gear that adds up to 600 armor and 350 spell armor when he dies.

You should be able to beat every fight, straight up without knowing the fight, assuming you are well enough geared and intelligent. Not starting the fight after dialogue, losing a character on the first turn before they even get to act.

I understand tactician mode is supposed to be hard and challenging. But when a fight starts and your tank takes 700 damage (enough to overkill him by about 100 damage) before you even get a chance to take a turn, where are the tactics in that? The only tactic now is knowing the fight beforehand and cheesing your way to victory.

Oh also as a side note: Not allowing us to have multiple summons really pissed me off. Especially after watching some stupid dog summon a giant skeleton fighter, then a skeleton archer and then summons a bloated corpse which runs into me and blows up without removing his other summons. But I can't even have a bone widow up and an incarnate at the same time. That really ticked me off. I'd love to be able to summon a bloated corpse in combat and rush him into the enemies and have him explode without having it make my Incarnate disappear. That'd be just grand!



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I apparently remembered wrong.

The skeletons (level 12) I am fighting don't have 800 life and 800 armor...

The melee guys have 1233 life, 832 armor and 504 spell armor

The caster skeletons have 927 life, 126 armor and 630 spell armor.

Seriously justify to me how they have so much.

In full level 10-12 gear with a paladin shield my healer has 314 armor and 331 spell armor lol.

How can someone have 1300 total armor to my 600, and almost 3 times my life total? HOW?

Someone fire this DM

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I'm with you that it needs a rework. (IMO pretty much everything in the game needs one.)

But what you are noticing isn't in my eyes necessarily a problem. Getting one shot by them maybe, but you must realize that the numbers are merely a representation of how much you need to whack the enemy in order to kill it.
Just as an example, if the enemies do 10 damage and have 1000 health while the player does 100 damage and has 100 health, then they are completely evenly matched.
Basically I don't think comparing the enemy's numbers to your own is a worthwhile comparison.

Getting one-shot though is a problem, which I think arose from how stupidly easy it is to stun every enemy in sight. I'm personally working on a mod to try to fix these problems.

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In most cases 'Tactician' means, that enemies just get a 50% boost on EVERYTHING. It's an issue some of us had from the beginning, even more because of how the armor system works. Most fights turn in a pretty tedious armor grind. Even worse this is at a not that well balanced 'early game'. The player is heavily disadvantaged there, because enemies all seem to have great 'gear', while player has neither gear nor skills, even more if he does not know his way around.

This game also heavily depends on your level, going into a fight with one level more makes quite an heavily influence on the outcome so you should hardly ever enter a fight with being lower level.

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Perhaps they could add more difficulty levels with gradual increase in the difficulty, the problem i see now is that since there arent many difficulty levels the game goes from easy to insane with nothing in between, there could have a difficulty level where the enemies are similar to classic mode in power but with much better AI, another level with 15% increase in their stats etc.

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[quote=BlueFeuer]Basically I don't think comparing the enemy's numbers to your own is a worthwhile comparison[/quote]

But this game is obviously a D&D genre type game. It isn't Diablo 3 where you have 100k life and dish out trillions of damage every turn.

In my mind there needs to be a justifiable reason as to why enemies have more life, armor and do more damage. And they need to drop the appropriate gear for that.


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[quote=Kalrakh]In most cases 'Tactician' means, that enemies just get a 50% boost on EVERYTHING. [/quote]

If they only had 50% boost on everything I think I might even be slightly OK with that but it's a LOT more than 50%.

At level 12 I can get like 700 life. So why do mobs have 1400? That's double my life. More than double my armor and easily double to even tripple my damage.

I came across the scarecrow fight. I thought the story part of it was cool. And out of nowhere he attacks! Great! I love the encounter so far.

Then he has a permanent terrify aura... OK

He and his mobs hit for ranged for 350+ magic damage, which in one round means all of my characters lose magic shield, and are now all permanently terrified, and they all die.

How is that fun? How is that balanced? It's not. At all.

So how did I beat this fight:

I stood atop the hill towards the edge where the river was. I started off the fight by teleporting the leader down into the town! I didn't get to talk to him or go through the narrator story. I had to cheat and start off the fight as if I'm a psychic and know he is going to attack.... which completely breaks the immersion of the story.

So then his lackeys start coming at my party one by one. Not having to worry about terrified aura it was a fairly good fight as they only had about 900ish HP which isn't too bad. Once the leader ran back up the hill, I just teleported him back down into the town again. Finished off the remaining scarecrow lackeys, then rested up and killed the leader.

Did I beat the encounter?

Yes

Was it rewarding?

No, no loot, just some damn pumpkins (My Red Prince has 6 luck just to try to find goddamn loot).

Was it fun?

No.

I had to break the story line, pretend I am psychic and knew the encounter was going to end in a fight, didn't get to play out the story and essentially cheated and used cheeseball tactics to win.

If the guy who made Tactician mode was my DM I'd be kicking his ass and throwing him out on the street. It's not balanced, rewarding or fun.

Could I beat the game on tactician? Probably. But I won't enjoy it. I can't turn my difficulty down to Classic and have to restart anew. Fantastic.........

I think what really ticks me off more than any of this though, through all the ridiculous amounts of health, armor and damage the mobs do is the fact they give almost NO REWARDS for killing them. I've gotten probably 75% of my wealth from stealing books, weapons, armor and gold.

When you kill 4 voidwoken and 2 magisters and your rewards are 50 gold, a ruby worth 200 and 2 amphibian legs... it's like what the flying frack is this crap? One good piece of armor costs 2000+ gold. So I need 10 of those encounters to buy ONE piece of armor? and I need to support 4 players worth of gear? Who designed this garbage? The majority of your spoils should be coming from battle and killing, not running around town stealing from poor townsfolk getting 3500 gold a pop from thieving on one person.

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in other words you wish that difficult fights had big rewards, specially on high difficulty levels.
i think part of your negative experience is because the game jumps from easy/very easy to insane difficulty, maybe they could add some difficulties in-between on a future update.

Last edited by watcher; 05/04/18 09:34 PM.
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[quote=watcher]in other words you wish that difficult fights had big rewards, specially on high difficulty levels.
i think part of your negative experience is because the game jumps from easy/very easy to insane difficulty, maybe they could add some difficulties in-between on a future update.
[/quote]

Yes you are correct in all manners.

Fights need to be much more rewarding, especially on higher difficulty levels.

Like classic mode: every enemy drops all the gear they wore with maybe 30% chance for a blue and 10% chance for a purple.

Tactician mode: Enemies drop all the gear they wore with maybe 50% chance for a blue and 25% chance for purple.

And the fights need to be much more balanced. If you want to give enemies perks for more vitality then great. But where are they getting all this armor from? Armor should only come from what you wear. There's no way in hell a level 10 character is going to have 900 armor. I'm staring at level 12 guys now with 1500 life and 800 armor and I'm just like yah... right.

Stats need to be realistic and follow the same rules for monsters as they do for players. And the drops should reflect the stats of the mobs that you fight.

Classic mode really is dogcrap too easy. Tactician is unbelievable stupidly difficult. There needs to be a happy in between which I would set as tactician. People who want to play Honour mode can deal with senseless stats on mobs that pummel you for twice your health in one hit.

Honour mode... hah. The irony. To beat the game on 'honour' mode you will need to know all the fights before hand, skip most of the talking before fights, abuse bad AI blocking doorways with tables and locked doors and teleporting mobs up to high points they get stuck on and don't even use their phoenix dive to get down from.

And they call it 'Honour mode" lol. More like "Cheat and abuse bad AI mode"

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Personally I found Tactician to be ridiculously easy, and I haven't even tried a lone wolf or all physical build.
I do agree equipment should come from fights and such rather than shopping, but I definitely don't agree that enemies should follow the same "rules" as a player in regards to equipment - What happens when you're fighting a non-humanoid enemy that doesn't wear armor? E.G. a demon? Should they have 0 Magic/Physical? Or the scarecrows? Should they drop their straw?

When I play DOS2, I play it for the challenge. If enemies have the same stats as my own characters, then the game would certainly be far too easy. Unless my own damage was heavily nerfed as well. But then we'd end up right back where we started, just with lower numbers so things.. What, feel more balanced?

For the record, again, enemies on Tactician only have 50% more health/armor over classic. So if enemies have double your armor and triple your damage, if you take away 50% of that it should be ~40% more armor and double your damage. But that, according to your own words, is too easy. And you think it should be lowered further?

And as far as loot goes - why would you give people better loot for wanting a challenge? Doesn't that just make the game easier, mitigating the challenge, and thus we're right back at the same difficulty as classic mode just with higher numbers across the board for both enemies and your characters?

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It is quite common, that higher difficulties yield better rewards. Those rewards normally don't make the game easier in the end, though let the challenge feel more rewarding. But I guess in D:OS2 the problem is, that weapon stats are to important. If you got good equipment or subpar equipment has an heavy influence on how you will perceive the difficulty of a fight. Same goes for your level, entering at level 5 a fight might feel pretty impossible, entering at 6 the challenge feels pretty gone.

Sadly, at current state higher difficulty in D:OS2 is more like the 'difficulty scaling' in old brawlers. They aswell tended to just beef up the enemies, which did make fights mainly just more tedious and not challenging.

Also I find it pretty irritating, that your life and armor magicaly grow, because you hit your next level. Even worse with stuff like magic damage, where your attributes feel less influential than your level. Not sure, how the level scaling was in the first game, though I did not bother about it there, because the character progression in itself felt less shallow.


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What happens when you're fighting a non-humanoid enemy that doesn't wear armor? E.G. a demon? Should they have 0 Magic/Physical? Or the scarecrows? Should they drop their straw?


One of many reasons why the implementation of the armor system is flawed in my eyes. Everything without armor is just dead meat and as soon as the armor is taken down, perma-cc is even easier to achieve. One of the reasons why my friend and I feel less challenged and more annoyed by tactician.

Even more regarding 'boss fights' because they are now closer to being a puzzle, than a real fight. Burst damage is often so insane, that they kill even your beefiest guy in one turn, so you have to figure out how to disable them before they are able to act even once.

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Personally I found Tactician to be ridiculously easy, and I haven't even tried a lone wolf or all physical build.


I'd love to see a level 11 or 12 party walk up to the Scarecrow encounter, go through the dialogue, then beat the encounter on their first run through of the game in Tactician. After I beat it I even went and watched how someone else did it and he did the same thing. Had his heroes all set up on the hill but he didn't teleport the leader down to the town like I did so I had an even easier time than him.

That's my point in all of this. It's not that I can't do it. It's just that it takes completely unrealistically stupid tactics you'd never actually use. And once the fight is over you get next to nothing for a reward.


Quote
I do agree equipment should come from fights and such rather than shopping, but I definitely don't agree that enemies should follow the same "rules" as a player in regards to equipment - What happens when you're fighting a non-humanoid enemy that doesn't wear armor? E.G. a demon? Should they have 0 Magic/Physical? Or the scarecrows? Should they drop their straw?


I think that's pretty simple man. You take your average tank class in full str based armor of that level, and that should be the 'average armor for str' for a character of that level. Shouldn't be hard to calculate.

So str based armor at level 12:
Chest: 91/16
Glove: 52/11
Boot: 52/11
Leg: 53/10
Helm: 46/8

So that's 294 armor, 56 magic armor and close to 400 vitality with 10 con. (add in a couple rings and maybe get to 200 magic armor). Go up to maybe 550 vitality with 15 con.

There's your default stats for an average level 12 'heavy str based armor' character.

So on classic mode you fight a level 12 magister, he has 300 armor, 200 magic armor and 500 vitality. When he dies he drops a bunch of white armor and gear which reflects those stats.

Maybe you meet a special Magister who has 400 armor, 300 magic armor and 600 vitality! Well if you kill HIM, he should drop some gear with bonus armor runes, bonus health rings etc.. the GEAR reflects the STATS.

If you simply wanted it to be 'challenging' then just don't loot em. Leave it there and pretend you're good at the game cause you have to go steal 4000 gold from all the villagers to afford any new gear.

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When I play DOS2, I play it for the challenge. If enemies have the same stats as my own characters, then the game would certainly be far too easy.


I play games for a challenge too which is why I usually play them on hard or very hard. Nier Automata was great on hard but sadly will never beat it on the PC on very hard because of a terrible port to PC.

Once again there's no challenge in these fights when first turn they teleport into you and one shot you on the first turn. That's not a challenge, that's complete faulty and failed game design.

Quote
For the record, again, enemies on Tactician only have 50% more health/armor over classic. So if enemies have double your armor and triple your damage, if you take away 50% of that it should be ~40% more armor and double your damage. But that, according to your own words, is too easy. And you think it should be lowered further?


I don't think the math fits at all here. The enemy armor isn't 50% higher than 'my armor' it's probably 50% higher than 'what a character in full legendary gear would have if he had a full set of legendary gear at his current level'. And with the absolutely pitifully low rewards you get for the fights that's pretty much nearly impossible to attain.

And every time I level I don't magically instantly gain a full new set of gear one level higher. Hell I feel lucky to be able to even find/afford like 8 or 9 pieces of gear in total for my whole party every level. So every level I upgrade about 2 pieces of gear per character... sounds about right.

Quote
And as far as loot goes - why would you give people better loot for wanting a challenge? Doesn't that just make the game easier, mitigating the challenge, and thus we're right back at the same difficulty as classic mode just with higher numbers across the board for both enemies and your characters?


Read my above statement.

Also if you are playing against tougher enemies they should be tougher for a reason. Magisters are wearing better gear, giving them bloated stats, making them harder to kill, yielding better gear when you kill them.

Sounds like a damn hell of a fun game to me. Not killing those 4 Magisters and the dog at the gate in Fort Joy to get like 50 gold, a knockdown arrow and some magisters garbage bow. I mean give me a break.

I think the biggest thing you are missing about this game is that it isn't Diablo. This isn't mash buttons, do trillions of damage, get no loot, move to next pack of mobs.

This is supposed to be a visualized D&D campaign. As realistic as you can possibly get without going too crazy. And it's 100% unrealistic to be killing guys who were all wielding bows, swords, shields, armor and drop NOTHING on death. That wouldn't even be that hard to program up.

Each fight should have some kind of meaning to it, a challenge to it, and more importantly a reward at the end. And it's missing the last point immensely.

Keep in mind Tactician isn't even the last difficulty. This is supposed to be like 'Hard' mode, not 'VERY HARD STUPID ENEMIES PWNZ UR NOOBTARD ARSE' mode. It's supposed to be challenging and difficult, but beatable without having to use cheese tactics and abuse bad AI.

I'll say it again. Classic is too easy with little difficulty, Tactician is ungodly annoyingly hard to beat but still doable.. if you know the fight beforehand and abuse cheap tactics. Something in between would be a lot more fun for Tactician. Leave the super godly powered scarecrows that punch you for 900 damage in one round for the looney toons that want to do that on Honour mode.

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He/she has a point, many people consider the rewards of a fight part of the fun of the experience, in many games when you increase the difficulty level the game gives you more experience points for defeating your enemy and/or gives you a better loot, not sure if they need to drop everything they were wearing but i think many would like to get at least part of what they had, the thing is, i'm not sure how hard would be to implement the loot scaling with difficulty mechanic, maybe it could be easily implemented as a patch or it could be quite difficult and need to be part of something really big.
It should be noted that there are players who like the tactician the way it is, if they ever add the better loot mechanic i think they should keep either an option to disable this mechanic or keep one or two difficulty levels that works exactly the same way as the tactician we have.

Last edited by watcher; 06/04/18 04:59 AM.
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I've read through what you are saying and I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying. Getting one-shot, etc, is not good and needs to be addressed. I'm working on that among other things. The game definitely should be more about tactics and less about knowing the fight beforehand.
Personally I didn't find Tactician hard at all (Me and my buddy ended up killing the burning Witch at level 11 or so on our first try), but that was definitely done with a bit of cheese.
The scarecrow we encountered at level 9, so we died pretty much immediately. We came back much later and killed them in one try though.

The game's challenge comes from figuring out the cheese way to do something, and I do agree that it's a pretty terrible way of doing things. But from reading your posts it seemed like you just wanted things to be easier than they already are. I want the challenge to remain as high, but I would like a much different type of challenge than the game provides.

The only thing I really disagree on is that the numbers should be the same as the player. As I said earlier, I only see the number as a representation of how much they can take relative to your damage.
But in any case we can agree to disagree there. I don't think the numbers matter overall personally.
I'm not going to say that higher numbers are better or anything.

I also don't necessarily agree on loot, but I don't really disagree either. I personally think that enemies should drop quite a few random items when you kill them, but that it should be the same loot on both difficulties.

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I agree mostly 100% with everything that was said here. This game has an odd (almost borderline joking) definition of reward.

Take for example, some stashes throughout Rivellon. Most of them are just plain useless.
In this game I usually have trouble keeping up with good on-my-level gear unless I am constantly shopping. It's pretty annoying.
And don't get me started about the so called reward by finishing the "bound by pain" quest. wtf!!!!
This fight was insane for me at level 16. And the guy is pretty stupid btw.

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There is no harder Mode than Tactician, Honour Mode is Tactician as Ironman mode, it is not harder, you just need to puzzle even more, because you can't just reload if a fight goes downhill.

Regarding 'rewards': Getting together Bracchus armor just to then sell it, because its stats are underwhelming is just another example of how unrewarding the game often times feels. But same goes for experience: A hard fight often yields less experience than a cheap mass fight like the voidlings ambush.

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I think that the real problem is the binarity of the system. It's not always too hard (or too easy). Until you figure out the 3-4 things to do, it's really hard and frustrating, and after you figured out, it became too easy.

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Tactician mode is fine, even too easy sometimes...most of the times... After completing act 1 twice, I've went honor mode and nearly finish up to act2 without dying once with any character and I was going blind on act2 not know what lied ahead...was cool... just the retarded fire boss which is way too imbalanced and I've complained a lot here in the forum... stopped playing too because that broke my fun..I could of continue my campaign anyway...but preferred not to.

There is a way to do this though... got to read the text and follow the quest in some sort of order. When you see the enemies higher lvl than yours, maybe you're too far ahead. People made a map on google, act 2 sectors by what level you should be.... as it act as an "opened world".

So doing it in the proper order is easy for the most part as oppose to doing it the wrong way which could be almost impossible.

At the time I didn't had the map
https://divinityoriginalsin2.vidyawiki.com/Areas+By+Level

So I remember when I first saw the camp where Saheila was kept hostage...I've just decided not to go there when I saw they were 2 lvl higher... and went somewhere else...

Last edited by AngeliusMefyrx; 09/04/18 10:55 PM.

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