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Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653021
17/06/19 05:12 AM
17/06/19 05:12 AM
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Posts: 146
Orion's Belt
Doomlord Offline
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There are many things I loved about Dungeons and Dragons, Video games and table top.

One is the ability to really customize your character by multi- classing and using different feats to really make a one of a kind toon, sometimes they were great at low level only to suck at higher levels... but hey that's half the fun.

I saw a trend in games over the last few years that really turns me off to video games and that's the "tree" leveling system. Neverwinter online has it , and many others. I hope this game will have a feat system like neverwinter nights and the 3.0/3.5 systems had along with Dungeons and dragons online. Feats... Feats... Feats!!

Last edited by Doomlord; 17/06/19 05:13 AM.

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Legion of Doom - Dungeons and Dragons online - server Orion -
Doom ~ Khazadoom ~ Nexus
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: Doomlord] #653023
17/06/19 08:23 AM
17/06/19 08:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 556
Midway Through Infinity
Try2Handing Offline
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Midway Through Infinity
Originally Posted by Doomlord
I saw a trend in games over the last few years that really turns me off to video games and that's the "tree" leveling system. Neverwinter online has it , and many others. I hope this game will have a feat system like neverwinter nights and the 3.0/3.5 systems had along with Dungeons and dragons online. Feats... Feats... Feats!!

Umm... Feats are basically just skills, while "tree" is just a representation style. If you want, you can draw pretty much any skill system, feats included, into a tree, each skill having its own prerequisites, Power Attack leading to Cleave leading to Great Cleave, etc. The "tree" is just more visual, and it's easier for you to get an overview of everything in it. Usually. On the other hand, if you don't like trees you can totally replace them with plain lists... This has no bearing on the system itself, or how anything works.

You said the "tree" leveling system turns you off but didn't explain what exactly the problem is here.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 17/06/19 08:31 AM.

"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653025
17/06/19 08:56 AM
17/06/19 08:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 132
Denmark
Bukke Offline
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Denmark
I have a whole lot of hopes, ideas and expectations for the game, but if there's one thing I hope gets implemented more than anything else it's proper itemisation.
Most of Larian's games feature randomly generated items with a handful of uniques thrown in here and there, resulting in very "Prefix weapon of Suffix" Diablo-esque loot that often is divided by different tiers represented by different colours. Personally I don't mind this since the unique weapons tend to stick out when compared to normal weapons due to their rarity, uniqueness and [generally] higher stats that ensure they remain useful far beyond the point where you obtain them.

However in Larian's most recent game, Original Sin 2, the stats on characters and items increase exponentially every time you level up. It's not noticeable during the beginning of the game, but once you reach the final third of the game (around level 14 and onwards) your items start to become noticeably weaker when you level up and if you don't seek out new equipment for your party you will quickly be very undergeared for the challenges ahead. Worse of all, this means that a random white level 20 butter knife you found in a random crate on a random street is significantly more powerful than a legendary level 19 sword.

One of the good parts about static item placements and the itemisation in BG2 (and many other video games for that matter) is that you can actively seek out certain pieces of equipment if you want to use them, plan on making a specific build on a subsequent playthrough and so on. I understand that from a game developer's perspective the thought of players rushing through certain parts of an area while ignoring all the quest and the like just to reach a piece of equipment might not be appealing, but I don't think a 'fix' to this non-existent problem should come at the cost of the natural feeling of progression.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653026
17/06/19 09:51 AM
17/06/19 09:51 AM
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I suppose I'm the only one who would like to see BG3 be influenced also a little bit by Planescape Torment and Hordes of the Underdark.

Other than that, a varied bestiary, my current favourites are:
- Beholders and their variations (Elder Orb, death tyrant)
- Demilich
- Golems: Mithril, demonflesh,
- Ulitharid, Alhoon

Quite rare wish: open to expansion packs for when Epic Level rules are released for 5E.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653048
17/06/19 06:43 PM
17/06/19 06:43 PM
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Savuyar Offline
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Greetings! I actually have a suggestion regarding one thing that I felt was sorely missing in both Baldur's Gate games: NPC and item randomization.
Given that I have played through the game more than 20 times I find it sad that after the third time I could already predict what sort of loot I would find in a given container or on a certain NPC. This is obvious if you watch most of the let's plays available on the net - the player knows the location of a certain item or NPC and thus metagames his strategy by heading in their direction. Another example: interesting NPCs like Tiax and Quayle are usually the least familiar to Baldur's Gate players as they appear at the same, set locations, late in the game. Adding a randomization element to the items and characters makes each playthrough exhilarating, especially when you choose permadeath mode - I can vouch for this since I have been working on a NPC/item randomization mod for BG1 for some years now and have already tasted some of the wonders this game mechanic (a staple of rougelikes) can provide.

The other thing I would like to suggest to the makers of the new Baldur's Gate - if they even read this, that is - is to make sure that they allow the player to drop items, just like in the old games (I haven't played DoS, but I believe this was also the case). This might be a thing that seems irrelevant for the gameplay and probably difficult and time-consuming to implement, but I found it frustrating in, say, Pillars Of Eternity, that you would have to carry all your items around (regardless of their weight and size) or send them off into oblivion.

I'm very pessimistic regarding the new installment in the series, as the bar is set real high and the priorities of game developers have radically changed since two decades go, but, as an ardent fan of the series, if the studio is honestly open to fan suggestions, I'm willing to dedicate my time to contribute.


"Tiax rules. Make way."
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653049
17/06/19 07:16 PM
17/06/19 07:16 PM
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BillyYank Offline
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Something I'd like to see for BG3 is random stats. I know most games these days go with point buy systems, but to me, a D&D game starts with rolling those dice to see how strong and smart I'm going to be. I'd even like to see Larian go the BG games one step further and let me roll my stats before I choose my class and race.

Last edited by BillyYank; 17/06/19 07:20 PM.

FABRICATE DIEM, PVNK
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653055
17/06/19 08:24 PM
17/06/19 08:24 PM
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Phi 42 Offline
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@Savuyar:
Like... only half of the sidequests and Containers are available in each playthrough, these are randomly rolled, and loot is not fixed but from a (or muliple, tiered) set table(s) that do(es) include a pity mechanism so it can't remove all daggers for my rogue companion and spam me with wands only? I would go for that. sure. It sounds like a major timesink to implement this just right (pity mechanism not too strong nor too weak, +1/+x and/or special bonuses should be rare by default as set by DnD 5e lore, this simplifies the table(s) a lot yay smile ) also add in some funny gimmicks/easter eggs for finding the cooler 10% of the containers if they are empty, making them never empty just variying in direct mechanical usefulness.

Characters naturally migrate and the bar is actually visited by 20-30 people, but rarely more than 7 at a time (more in the evening) quests being mutually exclusive but not too much on the nose for that, just a 2-3 part easter egg collection that explains how a quest you did made another quest unavailable (saved some chickens -> someone eats one, dies to salmonella -> some diary in an abandoned hut says "i wanted to get her a ring, but she is dead now" -> find the guy grieving at a tomb later, but not telling you the story. Guy just wants to be left alone. Damn thats grim. I am a monster. Chicken saving mutually exclusive with grilled (therefore not salmonella infected) chicken ending. Grilled chicken mutually exclusive with starving beggar quest. There, better!) damn that would be a hell of a lot of work. But In the Announcement they did check off overdelivery. And player agency i guess? :hihi: Replay value: immense.

@BillyYank
Rolling your stats P&P Style is prone to some abuse in at least single player. If they can disincentivize scummy behavior I am all for it though. I just do know myself and... smirk I'm scum.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: Phi 42] #653056
17/06/19 08:28 PM
17/06/19 08:28 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 805
Massachusetts, USA
kanisatha Offline
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Originally Posted by Phi 42

@BillyYank
Rolling your stats P&P Style is prone to some abuse in at least single player. If they can disincentivize scummy behavior I am all for it though. I just do know myself and... smirk I'm scum.

If single-player, by definition there cannot be "abuse" or "scummy behavior" in how a person CHOOSES to play THEIR game.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: kanisatha] #653057
17/06/19 08:36 PM
17/06/19 08:36 PM
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Phi 42 Offline
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Phi 42

@BillyYank
Rolling your stats P&P Style is prone to some abuse in at least single player. If they can disincentivize scummy behavior I am all for it though. I just do know myself and... smirk I'm scum.

If single-player, by definition there cannot be "abuse" or "scummy behavior" in how a person CHOOSES to play THEIR game.

fair and true.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: Try2Handing] #653060
18/06/19 12:00 AM
18/06/19 12:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 146
Orion's Belt
Doomlord Offline
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Orion's Belt
Thanks for the reply Try2handing.

I would give you a better example, I just don't have the info in front of me. But Ill try to draw a picture. Lets take Neverwinter online. When you first get enough Xp to to level, you had two trees to look at both with one feat to start with . That's a total of two feats to choose from for starters. Now in dungeons and dragons online which runs off of the 3.0/3.5 dnd game system there are literally a dozen or more feats to choose from.

I agree with you in terms of power attack leds to cleave and so forth. Any way I like the 3.0 system of taking feats, for instance neverwinter nights, multi classing and such. My english is not great. So trying to articulate everything ...


Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Legion of Doom - Dungeons and Dragons online - server Orion -
Doom ~ Khazadoom ~ Nexus
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653062
18/06/19 01:39 AM
18/06/19 01:39 AM
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Stahl33 Offline
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Trees are just a way of demonstrating pre-requisites.
I guess Doomlord, you are asking for an effective tree to have many "bases" or single choices... Lots of options not requiring other feat pre-requisites.

I suspect that 5e rules will help deal with this a little bit.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: Phi 42] #653088
18/06/19 02:15 PM
18/06/19 02:15 PM
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Posts: 39
NoVa, United States
BillyYank Offline
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Originally Posted by Phi 42
@BillyYank
Rolling your stats P&P Style is prone to some abuse in at least single player. If they can disincentivize scummy behavior I am all for it though. I just do know myself and... smirk I'm scum.


Over at the Beamdog forums there's stories of players spending hours hitting "reroll". If someone's going to put in that much time and effort, then it seems to me that's less cheating and more like work. Me, I'm more an OCD hard-ass when it comes to stats. I roll mine in a spreadsheet, pick the set I want, and transfer them to the game with only racial adjustments. if I didn't roll a paladin this time, then I'm not playing a paladin today.


FABRICATE DIEM, PVNK
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653094
18/06/19 07:13 PM
18/06/19 07:13 PM
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Sordak Offline
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Random stats dont work very well in DnD.
Itemization in the way it works in OS2 probably wouldnt work without changing the core rules a lot.
I would hope for a lot of creative magic items that do unique things.

I personally enjoy throwing magic items at my players that have certain requirements within them. Like a shield that only applis its enhancement bonus as long as the wielder acts chivalrous.

As for ability trees: why?
Swordcoast legends tried this and people hated it. 5E might still have a lot of trap options, but its nowhere near as bad as 3.5 was in that regard.
As long as you make sure to not fuck up as badly as NWN in which Horse Riding was a skill without horses beeing implemented in any of the official modules, just stick wiht the PnP system.
Feats already pretty much work like DnD feats in OS2. I dont see why you would change that.

What i would change is giving all martials access to the battlemaster maneuvers

EDIT: Also give me a blood grapple rule already, for some reason grappling is just forgotten about in all DnD games, depsite it beeing a realy good tool in melee combat and it realy helps to alleviate the problem of "Fighter has nothing else to do than whack the goblin over his head with a large branche"

Last edited by Sordak; 18/06/19 07:17 PM.
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653095
18/06/19 07:34 PM
18/06/19 07:34 PM
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Factions would be awsome. Just like those in Planescape Torment. For example we could join the Harpers they are most recognizable, there was even prestige class in NWN if I remember correctly. The rest of them as I've checked were Order of the Gauntlet, Emerald Enclave, Lords Alliance and Zhentarims.
Each individual faction could provide us with faction only quests through entire main campagin, some NPC's would react dependently of our choice, special rewards, faction alignment etc. What you guys think?

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653101
18/06/19 10:41 PM
18/06/19 10:41 PM
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hotmac Offline
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First of all, CONGRATULATIONS on getting BG3!!

So, I have played Divinity Original Sin (1) from start to finish and loved it! I got DOS 2 for Christmas (2018) and as of now I just started playing it and I have to say, its very frustrating!

What do I mean, well, there are just TOO many character choices/options to pick and if a error is made, no way to fix that till end of Act 1.
It literary gives me a headache to try and pick a class that can survive Act 1, now maybe I'm a bad player, so be it but a game being played on normal should not give anyone a headache in trying to decide what roles each character should play and trying to get a survivable party together.

Im all in for a open world, be what you want to be , yata yata yata, its all good especially for game PR but we need to be realistic, its a game for people to have FUN
I cant tell you how many times I read, "I had to start all over" so many times because of bad party composition/creation, (hell, I bet even the developers were overwhelmed in trying to keep everything straight in their heads/game). Do you have statistics of how many people actually finished the game?

I watched some of BG/BG2 EE edition and I noticed that it has an AI that can be assigned to each character so that you don't have to micro manage everything, I hope that stays in BG3.

So, bottom line, dont make the game so overwhelming that the dev's are confused, players are confused and everyone gets a headache (yes they buy the game, you get the money but are they being served well?)

On normal difficulty , no one should be confused or get a headache.

The story and exploration (loot yes, everyone likes "shiny toys") should be the main driver of the game (RPG), in my view there should be limited character creation for characters that are in the game already (party members). Only ONE character should have the full scale of character creation, from looks to states), everyone else should have rolls already assigned and ready to go, you use them or not, that's the players choice and every party member should should have a AI that can be assigned to them based on their roll/talents (as in the BG1/2 EE)

I'm still playing DOS2 and I'm getting there but its a slog (just got my collar removed), my party is not op but I am NOT starting over no matter what.

Dont make the Acts so uneven, it should be a even flow act1, 2, 3 (that's if you have Acts in BG3), DON'T expect the player to "steal" everything to get ahead (like in Act 1 of DOS2 and then have everything just about handed to them in Act2/3)

Just my thoughts, if you don't agree, that's fine, I probably did not fully explain my frustration with ACT1 of DOS2, I just hope that BG3 will be "better", I know you can do it Larian!

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653103
18/06/19 11:09 PM
18/06/19 11:09 PM
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Lemernis Offline
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The BG games had a very painterly style to the areas. Even though crude by current standards, they really were gorgeous. I'm not sure how that would sort of feeling would be imparted with today's graphics. But I think done extremely well, I might prefer something like that to striving for realism.

The BG1 and 2 soundtracks were also first rate. That music got etched into my imagination.

And the combination of great NPCs that were so perfectly cast by their voice actors was about as good as you could ever hope for.

Finally I want the same (or greater) loving attention to detail for the lore of the setting that the BG1 and 2 had.

I'm aware that combat is probably going to feel a bit different perhaps, because of 5E. But combat in the Infinity Engine was genius. This is a very high bar. Please don't screw the pooch on this.

Last edited by Lemernis; 18/06/19 11:44 PM.
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653113
19/06/19 08:48 AM
19/06/19 08:48 AM
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Sordak Offline
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hotmac if you cant do anything wrong, you also cant do anything right.
DnD is noteable for having a lot of trap options, OS2 is much more forgiving in that regard.
Personally i think getting rid of options to make it harder to fuck up is... not in the spirit of RPGs. I can see something like a "guide" for leveling up, NWN2 had somehting like auto picking options for your build but half of the time the game picked things that were garbage, but still, the idea isnt bad.

Have somehting that guides new players by the hand, but not removing options from the game, the older games also didnt do this. And when i look at modern RPGs, one of the most common complaint is that they are too casual.

As for Fort Joy, i personally love the openness of fort joy and i wish the other two acts were also like that. It would be even better if the world wasnt so static and would react to what you do. But im a big fan of simulation in video games, Baldurs Gate 3 probably isnt the right game to push in that direciton as theres a certain expectation from CRPGs that the Player is what guides the world not hte other way around.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653132
19/06/19 05:15 PM
19/06/19 05:15 PM
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hotmac Offline
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I just don't see how having to consult a spread sheet or spend hours "researching" options for a NPC character to build them correctly for your party is fun!
The most fun I have had with RPGs were DOS 1, Witcher series and Horizon Zero Dawn and (most recently).

I like the idea of multi-class, certainly for your main character but if other NPC party members had that it would be fun also.

I guess we all want different things, I want fun without the spread sheets others want a "challenge", its possibly for both to have that without the headaches. its called "easy", "normal" and "hard" or you can add "super hard" for those uber RPG players among us.

The main thing is for things to be "common sense", yes you would need to know some basics of the class, when to take wisdom over intellect as an example.

well, this is all fun to discuss but in the end Larian will do what Larian does.

Oh, one other thing Larian, STOP REINVENTING THE INVENTORY AND CRAFTING SYSTEM's!!!

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: hotmac] #653135
19/06/19 06:02 PM
19/06/19 06:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 39
NoVa, United States
BillyYank Offline
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Originally Posted by hotmac
I just don't see how having to consult a spread sheet or spend hours "researching" options for a NPC character to build them correctly for your party is fun!


The spreadsheet's faster than rolling dice by hand, which was what I was doing before I wrote it. The point though is I much rather roll my stats as the first step to creating my character, before I choose my race and class, the way the Good Gygax intended.

As for a crafting system, I hope they leave it out all together. Brewing a potion or building a magic item in the middle of a dungeon is just silly. If they implement strongholds or something for higher levels, I could see it as something you do during downtime.


FABRICATE DIEM, PVNK
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #653150
20/06/19 04:25 AM
20/06/19 04:25 AM
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Tyr2000 Offline
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Congrats Larian, I am quite happy you got this I.P

Suggestions

Lengthy item descriptions and lore for magical items. It's a lot cooler finding the ancient sword of kick ass when its a part of the world. Have npcs comment on it. Have rivals attempt to steal it. This is something i missed greatly in kingmaker.

Minimum random loot. The loot in DOS2 just felt like number upgrades.

When dealing with gods or beings of incredible power please use appropriate gravitas. Why would a gods talk with the player? They have bigger and better things to do. If they do communicate, doing it through signs or a natural event. A river turning into blood. A white stag walking and directing the player to a goal. A symbolic dream.

Do evil right and give them proper motivation to be where they are at.

Robust level and campaign editor. It would be awsome if there was a d&d video game engine that had new modules released for it and created by the community, like nwn.

Turn based combat. You guys know how to do this well. Rtwp multiplayer will be too chaotic and counter intuitive. Considering the release on stadia im not to worried about this.

Conservative/realistic art direction. I thought the DOS2 elves looked weird. Their clothes were really out there.

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