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Are you saying that you could not cheese BG1 and 2 and they were perfectly balanced? Come on...


There are three things that are strength incarnate: there is love of life, there is fear of death, and there is family. A family that loves death would have a strong pull indeed.
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Originally Posted by Arideya
Are you saying that you could not cheese BG1 and 2 and they were perfectly balanced? Come on...

I gave evidence where turn based combat is the main and chief culprit of the abuse breaking the combat. Would you like to provide evidence for your points? Keep in mind that it is not good enough to break the combat but you must demonstrate that it is specifically RTwP that is allowing for the combat to be broken.


I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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dude if you stretch anymore you'll break

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The basic problem with RTWP has been, and always will be, companion AI.

RTWP is superior for a solo-run. I think we could agree on that in general. If you controlled one character, or one character and a sort of half-character like Diablo or some other systems with single "companions" or summons, then RTWP works. It's quick, you can react just fine, your actions feel snappy, combat feels responsive, we could go on.

But when you have large parties? Be prepared to either take a lot of sub-optimal actions, make a lot of poor tactical choices, or macro or spam pause like a loon.

Now, some people are arguing that you should feel that way. Maybe they compare it to StarCraft, lrn2 micro. I'm not playing StarCraft, I'm playing DnD. I don't want a starcraft experience.

Some people are arguing that turn-based combat has no flaws. It does. There are, indeed, some...eccentricities of turn based combat that make no sense. This is glaring right now with no reactions-but in general, its why the stealth system is broken. It's simultaneously hard to sneak attack enemies that should be easy to sneak attack because of the clunky interface between Real time and turn based modes, and way to easy to clear dungeons because you can hit and run out of sight too easily and the AI can't handle it-which they would be more adept at doing if it were RTWP.

Hence, neither system is perfect. However here's the key and what makes this such a non-debate for me: Turn based is how DnD is.

This is, fundamentally, a DnD game. Yes, it's got the baldur's gate title on it, which were RTWP. Baldur's gate is remembered as nearly perfect, but it did have its flaws, and that system was part of it. What helped matters was that BG 1/2 were so easy that you could honestly just build everyone right, then glob/melee 90% of encounters to death and pause for careful maneuvering with the one or two enemies that can hurt you. This game has strange balance right now, but so much has changed between editions that that kind of doesen't really work anymore. Also, if I want RTWP, there are lots of other options in recent years that are really solid titles-I get wanting more, but not every game has to be the same just because its an RPG.

Last edited by SilverSaint; 20/10/20 07:18 PM.
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I agree. Neither system is perfect, and either can be broken and cheesed. Eventually it comes down to individual preferences.
I like both actually - RTwP scratches the nostalgic itch and I would be happy if it was included, but I can see why turn-based was chosen for BG3 since its what D&D is about.
Doesn't it depend on what Wizards of the Coast says though? Its their IP and for all we know one of the reasons they chose Larian is because of how they've implemented turn-based combat in DOS2.

Last edited by Arideya; 20/10/20 07:19 PM.

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Please give us a RTwP option/mode!
Waiting for 20+ Goblins to take there move+attack is really pathetic, when all this game should give me is an exciting experience.

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Originally Posted by Into Oblivion
Please give us a RTwP option/mode!
Waiting for 20+ Goblins to take there move+attack is really pathetic, when all this game should give me is an exciting experience.

Oh, to add to this, it would be more tolerable if goblins had correct HP numbers, I.E. ~5. You could AOE a bunch down. If they could optimize the turn waiting that would help as well. I don't want RTWP, but this is a real problem right now.

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I am so bummed by TB. Constantly missing attacks, boring. The enemy AI constantly targetting my party member witht he least hp so every round he gets downed, it's not fun.

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Out of all the DnD versions 5e is more tailored towards Turn based play.

Honestly I would feel cheated playing a 5e based game that was RTwP. it just wouldn't work and you would lose so much. There's no way you could properly manage your turn / action economy in a 5e system and not be having to pause every 1 second if it was RTwP.

and that's just the initial low levels. What what it be like when characters are taking 4+ actions a turn (just an an example main + bonus total).. can you think of a worse nightmare than that.

I absolutely loved BG1 & BG2 I played them the day they came out. I've been playing DnD for 25+ years and my first DnD based game was fracin pool of radiance on a com64. I actually like feeling like I'm getting a Table Top Experience in my game.

So why are you even comparing a game that used AD&D as it's basis to a game using 5e as a basis. They are totally different beasts.

The turn based combat will be improved and granted it might be slow atm on super large fights, but why is everyone assuming it will always be like that when the game fully releases. Turn Based combat can flow smoothly and be fast paced.



Last edited by Fistandilus; 20/10/20 10:29 PM.
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I dispise TBwP and I really hope we stay with the turn-based mode, its much more fun. laugh

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The thing about D&D is that I really don't care about D&D. I just wanted to play a BG3 that was actually fun like the previous two. This isn't a BG game, it's divinity 3 and the gameplay is not fun at all. Do yourselves a favor Larian and make a seperate game mode with rtwp. Let us move our characters around like how you could in the previous games. Add more trash mobs in with that version if you need to but this needs to be your TOP priority now that you guys have the money to do $o.

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Originally Posted by Fistandilus
Turn Based combat can flow smoothly and be fast paced.

There's not a single example of this anywhere. It cannot be done, by definition, and will never be the case with BG3.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Fistandilus
Turn Based combat can flow smoothly and be fast paced.

There's not a single example of this anywhere. It cannot be done, by definition, and will never be the case with BG3.

So your saying there is not a single turn based rpg or turn based tactical rpg that flows smoothly and is fast paced. Or even good for that matter

Damn what the heck have we been playing since video games / table top games have existed and why do they keep making them .....

Plus strictly talking DND 5e I think 20 mobs around your level is a deadly encounter. So I don’t know how much that will even happen (just a general example since I’m not bringing in CR stuff ) and lets not forget why WoTC wants a 5e based game instead of 3.5 or AD&D since it kind of matters and I’m just as excited for the multiplayer potential as I’m am for the single player campaign and The potential for a powerful table top tool. I mean my DM and some DM friends I know are already talking about utilizing it for their sessions. So the closer it is to the table top DND 5e it is the better. Win win

Last edited by Fistandilus; 21/10/20 01:58 PM.
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Real Time with Pause.

I think if Larian wanted to make a Baldur's Gate 3 and not a Divinity 3 with better marketing, they should stay true to the general feel of Baldur's Gate. The general feel when playing, exploring, and fighting should be as close as possible, and real time with pause is a major part of that experience. There is no Baldur's Gate game on the market that is turn based for a reason. Stay true to the IP.

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Originally Posted by Dirin Tenshinibo
Real Time with Pause.

I think if Larian wanted to make a Baldur's Gate 3 and not a Divinity 3 with better marketing, they should stay true to the general feel of Baldur's Gate. The general feel when playing, exploring, and fighting should be as close as possible, and real time with pause is a major part of that experience. There is no Baldur's Gate game on the market that is turn based for a reason. Stay true to the IP.


The IP revolves around the Setting and story. Just because it doesn't have RTwP doesn't mean it's not every much a "Baldurs Gate" game as BG1/BG2 where, honestly comparing something adapted from AD&D and something adapted from 5e is crazy. They are so massive different in how they play they might as well be apples and oranges.

Baldurs gate 3 is based on an actual DnD module called "Baldurs Gate: Descent into Avernus", so how the heck do you get off saying it's not a Baldurs Gate game...... they've also said since day 1 it is not a direct sequel to BG1 / BG2 but it does take place 100 years after Baldurs gate 1/2 and will have lore and other connections to those games.

They created those games as RTwP because it worked well with the AD&D system. The 5e system was built / tailored more towards the turn based play. I'm a huge fan of DnD and played BG1/BG2 the day they released and they are some of my favorite games. But I'm not caught up on the whole RTwP issue.

Telling WoTC that they can't name the game after the module it's based off of which is also named Baldurs Gate etc etc because it doesn't have RTwP is just ridiculous.
Honestly not even considering the Gameplay of BG1/BG2 but looking at the systems they are based off of. Who can honestly say 5e would play well as a RTwP game. Be honest now.

Last edited by Fistandilus; 21/10/20 04:13 PM.
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I played Pathfinder Kingmaker a lot, and it had turn based with pause....it was outright annoying to control the casters and all those special abilities.
When they finally implemented the turn based combat it was way more comfortable to control the party members with their different spells and abilities. Sure...there are a lot of fights where just clicking and let the autoattacks do the job, but there are a lot where the oponents are harder and so it was more important to be able to use turn based.

The implementation in Kingmaker is done realy fine, with a switch to always be able to toggle turn based on and off.

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Originally Posted by Fistandilus
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Fistandilus
Turn Based combat can flow smoothly and be fast paced.

There's not a single example of this anywhere. It cannot be done, by definition, and will never be the case with BG3.

So your saying there is not a single turn based rpg or turn based tactical rpg that flows smoothly and is fast paced. Or even good for that matter

Damn what the heck have we been playing since video games / table top games have existed and why do they keep making them .....

Plus strictly talking DND 5e I think 20 mobs around your level is a deadly encounter. So I don’t know how much that will even happen (just a general example since I’m not bringing in CR stuff ) and lets not forget why WoTC wants a 5e based game instead of 3.5 or AD&D since it kind of matters and I’m just as excited for the multiplayer potential as I’m am for the single player campaign and The potential for a powerful table top tool. I mean my DM and some DM friends I know are already talking about utilizing it for their sessions. So the closer it is to the table top DND 5e it is the better. Win win

Whether something is good is a subjective judgment. I was only speaking to smooth flowing and fast paced.

I was only speaking to video games. I don't really care at all about tabletop games.

WotC's rule is that any game being currently made should use the current ruleset. That's how it has always been with WotC. They have never allowed a video game to be made with an older edition of their ruleset. I much rather prefer 3.5e, but I understand and accept WotC wanting to promote their current edition. Makes business sense to do so.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Fistandilus
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Fistandilus
Turn Based combat can flow smoothly and be fast paced.

There's not a single example of this anywhere. It cannot be done, by definition, and will never be the case with BG3.

So your saying there is not a single turn based rpg or turn based tactical rpg that flows smoothly and is fast paced. Or even good for that matter

Damn what the heck have we been playing since video games / table top games have existed and why do they keep making them .....

Plus strictly talking DND 5e I think 20 mobs around your level is a deadly encounter. So I don’t know how much that will even happen (just a general example since I’m not bringing in CR stuff ) and lets not forget why WoTC wants a 5e based game instead of 3.5 or AD&D since it kind of matters and I’m just as excited for the multiplayer potential as I’m am for the single player campaign and The potential for a powerful table top tool. I mean my DM and some DM friends I know are already talking about utilizing it for their sessions. So the closer it is to the table top DND 5e it is the better. Win win

Whether something is good is a subjective judgment. I was only speaking to smooth flowing and fast paced.

I was only speaking to video games. I don't really care at all about tabletop games.

WotC's rule is that any game being currently made should use the current ruleset. That's how it has always been with WotC. They have never allowed a video game to be made with an older edition of their ruleset. I much rather prefer 3.5e, but I understand and accept WotC wanting to promote their current edition. Makes business sense to do so.


That is true, and I'm making some assumptions myself as well. I'm assuming the combat speed will be improved by release. I Highly doubt it will be released the way it is now because the biggest issue is how long the AI is taking to make their moves / decisions which I fully believe will be improved on. I'm not denying there is an issue with combat the way it is. But I also feel that a game being Turn Based is not a death sentence to a DnD game especially a 5e game. We have enough pseudo DnD games, I want a real DnD 5e game, and really do hope they iron out some of the issues with the current combat.

but if I had to choose RTwP or Turn Based for a 5e game. 100% of the time I will take Turn Based. For multitudes of reasons and not restrict my thinking to hey BG1/BG2 where RTwP so BG3 needs to be as well.
I'm looking at the systems they are based on and the potential of the game being built in that system. Honestly who doesn't want an awesome game that is as close to a true DnD experience as possible.

Last edited by Fistandilus; 21/10/20 05:08 PM.
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When I load this game and I am stuck in a battle and I keep having constant misses and the enemy AI just keeps going after my lowest hp character so that I have to "help" them every round which takes a move away from one of my characters. It's seriously tedious and not fun at all. It makes me want to just load up BG2 which is a masterpiece. Who cares about D&D 5e if a game from 20 years ago is straight up better?

btw aside from the movement being horrendous, not every npc needs a little cutscene, you could just have some text that pops up above their head for the sake of not wasting time with npcs that don't have an impact on the story somehow. I really want to like this game but its hard at the moment.

Last edited by Burglebutt; 21/10/20 06:18 PM.
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I admit, I have no idea what to do if the battle is turn-based, if there are twenty enemy archers in front of you and if everyone is aiming at you.

But it seems to me that games with an active pause are built on the idea that the player uses active pause as little as possible. To correct some important things that cannot be corrected without a pause. This has never worked for me. I either use too much control even in the smallest fights, or I lower the difficulty to the absolute minimum, to storymode, to cheats and trainers. And then I stop paying attention to the fights. All the characters do their auto attacks, and I do tea.

And then someone in a smallest corridor steps on a trap and everyone is suddenly in a web. From horns to tails. For a long time. And all I can think is: Pathfinder, you yourself made this mess.

My vote goes for "turn per turn" =)

Last edited by kodirovshchik; 21/10/20 06:31 PM.
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