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Bhaal's essence #653079
18/06/19 08:53 AM
18/06/19 08:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
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Grenix Offline OP
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Grenix  Offline OP
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What do you think should have been done with Bhaal's Essence in BG3.
Since it's a follow up from the game series i think it is only natural they follow that storyline.
So either Bhaal's essence is destroyed? Well most part since there are a few Bhaalspawn suvivors if im not mistaken? Viekang?
Or should it have been claimed by main char and is he now a god / demi god?
Perhaps both options should be available at the start of BG3 as a choice.

Seeing how BG1 to BG2 went. MC is most likely a good / neutral character. He would probably destroy the essence and keep on adventuring.
This is based on the fact of starting companions in Irenicus's dungeon.

I am curious what people think about this subject? It seems to be one of the most important things about BG3 storyline?
Or should it not be mentioned at all and simply be ignored. BG3 is a new diffrent game?

Re: Bhaal's essence [Re: Grenix] #653195
21/06/19 06:06 AM
21/06/19 06:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 82
BladeDancer Online content
journeyman
BladeDancer  Online Content
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Posts: 82
No point in wondering. The 5th edition tabletop adventure "Murder In Baldur's Gate" already covers what happens to Bhaal's essence. There were two Bhaalspawn left during the time Murder in Baldur's Gate is set in. One was Abdel, the guy who was the main character of the god awful Baldur's Gate Trilogy novels (the novels although official, cannot be considered canon because it ruins the lore of the 2nd edition time frame with serious lore errors like Angelo being a Grand Duke even though there are only four Grand Dukes (Eltan, Liia, Entar and Belt), and Angelo is not one of them, and the drow of Ust Natha eat spiders yet worship Lolth which is wrong because abuse of spiders in any ways is a death sentence), and the other was the guy (Viekang) who suddenly teleports away whenever he gets terrified.

Before anyone claims that Abdel is the official identity of the game protagonist, personally, I believe Abdel Adrian and the game protagonist to be completely different characters in the D&D lore, because their backstories and fates are vastly different. Abdel was born in 1343, 15 years before the Time of Troubles, and the very beginning of the first Baldur's Gate game says that the game protagonist is in his or her early 20's, spending 20 years of his or her life living in Candlekeep. That does not line up with Abdel's age. Plus, Abdel left Candlekeep years before the time the Iron Throne started their schemes in the Sword Coast. When Abdel was a child, he was first rescued by a paladin named Sir Daesric who was an old friend of Gorion, and Daesric brought Abdel to Gorion, and the game protagonist was rescued by Gorion himself and his Harper allies who raided a temple where followers of Bhaal were attempting to sacrifice Bhaalspawn in their infantile age, and Gorion was forced to kill the game protagonist's mother to save his/her life.

As for the way the games and novels ended, there are more drastic differences. After playing Siege of Dragonspear, it has become clear to me that the game protagonist unfairly falls from grace for a reason. Shadows of Amn's intro (even the original edition back in 2000) hinted that the people of Baldur's Gate figured out the game protagonist is a Bhaalspawn, and the end of Beamdog's Siege of Dragonspear story expansion revealed that the dark circumstance that forced the game protagonist to leave Baldur's Gate was that Irenicus under a disguise murdered Skie Silvershield with a dagger that took her soul, framing the game protagonist for the murder to draw him/her out of the city. And when the game protagonist escaped, he/she left Baldur's Gate with Imoen, Minsc, Dynaheir, Khalid and Jaheira until they got captured by the Shadow Thieves working for Irenicus, setting the stage for Shadows of Amn.

Also, it is possible that the game protagonist, good or neutral aligned also canonically met and interacted with a few evil characters even if they didn't start out with him/her like Imoen, Minsc, Khalid, Jaheira and Dynaheir. Like Viconia, for example. When you meet her in Shadows of Amn, she immediately recognizes the game protagonist by name even if you haven't met her in the first Baldur's Gate game.

In the novelization of Shadows Of Amn, the people of Baldur's Gate never learned Abdel's heritage. Unlike the game protagonist, he is more in the clear, while the game protagonist's heroics are destined to fade from the memories of the people of Baldur's Gate, leading up to the likelihood of Abdel replacing the game protagonist as the hero who stopped Sarevok and being recorded in Forgotten Realms history for the deed even though he wasn't involved, and becoming a Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate around 4th and 5th edition before his death in Murder in Baldur's Gate.

I just finished playing the enhanced editions of the Baldur's Gate games, and my character is a Chaotic Good male human, and I get the feeling that the overall story of Gorion's Ward is tailored to a good or neutral aligned main character, because of the themes of "overcoming your inner darkness and murderous instincts" and all that. Choosing to remain mortal and destroying the essence within the main character is the way to go, I believe, because if Gorion's Ward chose to ascend to godhood, it would canonically change the pantheon of gods in major ways, Gorion's Ward would be officially listed in D&D sourcebooks and stuff like that. But since the pantheon of Faerunian gods have not changed since after Throne Of Bhaal, it is safe to assume that Gorion's Ward officially did not choose to ascend to godhood.

And yes, BG3 will be a completely different game, since it is set more than 100 years after BG2 Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal. I know for sure that Minsc and Boo will return in the game because the Legends of Baldur's Gate comic books didn't bring them into 5th edition for nothing!

Last edited by BladeDancer; 21/06/19 06:22 PM. Reason: New detials to add
Re: Bhaal's essence [Re: Grenix] #653198
21/06/19 06:54 AM
21/06/19 06:54 AM
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Stahl33 Offline
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Or he did ascend to Godhood, but is not considered as significant enough of an entity to add to the sourcebooks lol...

The sourcebooks don't know everything that goes on.... If ascended to Godhood, heck I would check out other realms or planes first... maybe spend a few millennia creating my own plane of existence.... whatever lol

Re: Bhaal's essence [Re: Stahl33] #653206
21/06/19 12:56 PM
21/06/19 12:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 39
NoVa, United States
BillyYank Offline
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BillyYank  Offline
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Originally Posted by Stahl33
Or he did ascend to Godhood, but is not considered as significant enough of an entity to add to the sourcebooks lol...

The sourcebooks don't know everything that goes on.... If ascended to Godhood, heck I would check out other realms or planes first... maybe spend a few millennia creating my own plane of existence.... whatever lol


My character ascended to godhood. Not as the god of murder, but as the god of red rum.


FABRICATE DIEM, PVNK
Re: Bhaal's essence [Re: Grenix] #653207
21/06/19 01:10 PM
21/06/19 01:10 PM
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JBento Offline
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JBento  Offline
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Bhaal's essence is now in, well, Bhaal. The god of murder returned for 5E, right on the PHB.

Re: Bhaal's essence [Re: Grenix] #653250
22/06/19 11:27 AM
22/06/19 11:27 AM
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Sordak Offline
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Sordak  Offline
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its a bit of a shame that the book became canon, not that i read it, but from the synposis, its not very good

Re: Bhaal's essence [Re: Sordak] #653256
22/06/19 05:26 PM
22/06/19 05:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 82
BladeDancer Online content
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BladeDancer  Online Content
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Good news, the games can be considered canon, as long as they don't contradict any D&D lore from sourcebooks and such. Unfortunately for the Baldur's Gate novel, they have so many lore contradictions that they have no right to be considered canon. I've read the novels, and I can point out several reasons why the novelizations disrespect not only the games they are based on, but also the overall D&D lore.

Baldur's Gate novel major lore errors:

Not far into the beginning of the novel, Abdel finds a note in Gorion's body and the note states that during the Avatar Crisis, The Black Lord will spread his progeny all over Faerun. First and foremost, "The Black Lord" is not Bhaal's title, it is Bane's. And there is no way in hell Bhaal spread the Bhaalspawn around Faerun in 1358, ten years before the Baldur's Gate game and novel happens, otherwise Abdel and every other Bhaalspawn would be ten years old. The Baldur's Gate game stated clearly that many years before 1358, he somehow foresaw his death and started sleeping with many women all over Faerun a decade or more before the Avatar Crisis, which explains the tabletop adventure game "Murder In Baldur's Gate" revealing the official year of Abdel's birthday is 1343.

Korax, the "friendly" ghoul appears in this novel, and Abdel knew him as a friend of his that used to live in Candlekeep with him before he died. This may not sound major, but it bites the canonicity of the novels in the butt during Shadows of Amn when Imoen in introduced. Why wasn't Imoen mentioned?

The novel claims that the Iron Throne used to be part of the Zhentarim, but that is not true at all. They were never connected to the Zhentarim. D&D sourcebooks claim that the Iron Throne was founded 11 years before the Time Of Troubles by a tiefling woman named Sfena who wanted to make the Iron Throne the richest and most powerful mercantile organization so that she can sell the organization off to a devil in exchange for a cure for her "illness". This is why she greenlighted Sarevok's foster father's plan to taint the iron supply in the Sword Coast and get rich quickly from selling pure iron.

Sarevok runs the Iron Throne all by himself in the novel. His foster father and the other bosses of the Iron Throne do not make an appearance in the novel. The games make it clear that Sarevok is not a business savvy man. If Sarevok had complete control of the Iron Throne in Baldur's Gate, the business would quickly collapse just like in the final parts of the game because Sarevok cares nothing about business practices.

In the novel, Tethtoril is the Keeper of Tomes in Candlekeep instead of Ulraunt (Ulraunt does not appear in the novel), but the games are more in line with the sourcebooks, which state Ulraunt is the Keeper of Tomes, and Tethtoril is the First Reader of Candlekeep, and visitors of Candlekeep find Tethtoril more tolerable than Ulraunt, and because of his intelligent, regal, and sensitive nature, he is often mistaken as the Keeper of the Tomes. This also explains why in one part of the game when you are... "jailed" in Candlekeep, Tethtoril trusts you more than Ulraunt does and gives you an opportunity to escape and clear your name; Ulraunt is a proud, haughty wizard, while Tethtoril is wise and soft-spoken, he knows there is more going on that what it seems. But in the novel, he isn't portrayed that way, and that is seriously wrong.

In the novel, Angelo is not one of the bad guys, much to my confusion, and he is not a high ranking corrupt Flaming Fist mercenary. He a half-elf and one of the Grand Dukes of Baldur's Gate. Big problem there. The Grand Dukes of Baldur's Gate are also known as the "Council of Four" for a reason (Two of the Grand Dukes, Liia and Belt don't appear in the novel). If there was officially a half-elven Grand Duke, then sourcebooks like Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, which reveals lore details in the Sword Coast two to one year before the events of the Baldur's Gate game and novel, then Angelo should have been mentioned beforehand.


Baldur's Gate 2 SoA novel major lore errors

The novel doesn't explain how Irenicus captured Abdel, and why he took Imoen, Minsc and Jaheira too. Imoen never appeared or was mentioned in the Baldur's Gate novel. Minsc is described as having red hair and a beard. WRONG! WRONG! It is pretty obvious that 5th edition considers the game version of Minsc to be canon over the novel version.

The drow of Ust Natha eat spiders as one of their delicacies. Lolth would smite them for that. Nuff said.

The Copper Coronet gets destroyed in one part of the novel when Bodhi gets killed by Abdel. Destroying a major location in D&D is not an ideal thing to do, because the Lands of Intrigue sourcebooks which tells the lore of Amn and Tethyr in 1370, one year after or during the Shadows of Amn that the Copper Coronet is still standing.


Baldur's Gate 2 ToB novel major lore errors

The prologue is set in 1368, the same year as the first Baldur's Gate game and novel, but the rest of the chapters don't make it clear that they take place in the present day, making the novelization of Throne of Bhaal take place after Baldur's Gate and before Baldur's Gate 2 SoA which does not make sense because the continuity of the novel version Baldur's Gate series is seriously thrown out of order. In the novelization of Throne of Bhaal, Jaheira gets killed by Abazigal, and Imoen gets killed by Sendai, and in SoA, Jaheira and Imoen are both alive, except for Jaheira, she had been recently revived from getting killed by Sarevok towards the end of the first Baldur's Gate novel.


All these reasons are why the games are, and should be canon over the novels, they are more faithful to the D&D lore than the novels.

Last edited by BladeDancer; 24/06/19 01:23 AM. Reason: New information

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