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#659317 28/02/20 10:15 AM
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Hello,

To begin, please excuse my poor English.

I am very unpleasantly surprised or even worried by the non respect of the D & D5 rules for this Baldur's Gate 3 with what I could read from Larian and saw the gameplay yesterday.
This gives the feeling that the Baldur's Gate license here is just a simple name used for marketing purposes, a pretext. There, with what I saw yesterday, I especially have the impression that we dressed a Divinity Original Sin with some elements of D&D and not that Baldur's Gate 3 fully respects the universe and the rules of D&D.

Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 fully respected this universe and AD&D rules. Why is this not the case with Baldur's Gate 3 even though the rules of the 5th edition have been greatly simplified compared to AD&D?
Beyond that, there are elements of DOS gameplay that have absolutely nothing to do in a Baldur's Gate game; except for ease of development:

- Action points
In D&D, the actions are divided according to a very precise plan (movement, action, bonus action, reaction, etc.). There are no action points.

- The initiative
In D&D, there is no group initiative; except, possibly, for very large groups of monsters.
For players, a group initiative system is very disabling! Goodbye the initiative bonuses of each player and Goodbye the Talents which influence the initiative. How was it really problematic to manage an initiative for each protagonist in a fight and to organize it all in rounds and combat turns?

Besides, why are there only 6 playable classes?
Why are there playable races out of nowhere and others, normally playable, that are not available?

All that really worries me because when we talk about Baldur's Gate, we are necessarily talking about the universe and the D & D5 rules, we are not talking about a Baldur's Gate skin on a DOS game!

Could we have an exhaustive list of all the changes that should be expected and that do not comply with D & D5 rules?

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+1

I don't like repeating myself but... Sword Coast Legends was a fiasco, because the didn't comply with the DnD 5e Ruleset... don't let BG3 suffer the same fate.

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Thanks for your support. ;)

I am clearly one of the players (I think we are very much in this case) who expect the Baldur's Gate 3 experience as close as possible to a game of D&D paper version.
This is what happened with the first Baldur's Gate and with Planescape Torment and it was really great.

I will clearly not be one of the players who will be content with a vague inspiration from the D&D5 rules on a game that only bears the name Baldur's Gate as a marketing prestext!

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Haven't you seen the gameplay? The game has the most accurate DND gameplay ever!
The game has everything action, bonus action and movement are all there. Everything is rolled according to the DND rules.
Initiative is just ther decision I don't see how it aaffects the gaemplay that much.

They said that they add additional classes s the game progresses, BG3 will have a lot more classes and races at release.

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+1

Also you can see exact hp of the enemy you are fighting.Knowing exactly when to cast power word kill or sleep is not true to dnd. I did not noticed attack of opportunity either...

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Attack of opportunity was also shown in the stream,


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Originally Posted by Hawke
Haven't you seen the gameplay? The game has the most accurate DND gameplay ever!
The game has everything action, bonus action and movement are all there. Everything is rolled according to the DND rules.
Initiative is just ther decision I don't see how it aaffects the gaemplay that much.

They said that they add additional classes s the game progresses, BG3 will have a lot more classes and races at release.


*Temple of Elemental Evil would like to know your location*

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Originally Posted by Melkyor95
Hello,

To begin, please excuse my poor English.

I am very unpleasantly surprised or even worried by the non respect of the D & D5 rules for this Baldur's Gate 3 with what I could read from Larian and saw the gameplay yesterday.
This gives the feeling that the Baldur's Gate license here is just a simple name used for marketing purposes, a pretext. There, with what I saw yesterday, I especially have the impression that we dressed a Divinity Original Sin with some elements of D&D and not that Baldur's Gate 3 fully respects the universe and the rules of D&D.

Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 fully respected this universe and AD&D rules. Why is this not the case with Baldur's Gate 3 even though the rules of the 5th edition have been greatly simplified compared to AD&D?
Beyond that, there are elements of DOS gameplay that have absolutely nothing to do in a Baldur's Gate game; except for ease of development:

- Action points
In D&D, the actions are divided according to a very precise plan (movement, action, bonus action, reaction, etc.). There are no action points.

- The initiative
In D&D, there is no group initiative; except, possibly, for very large groups of monsters.
For players, a group initiative system is very disabling! Goodbye the initiative bonuses of each player and Goodbye the Talents which influence the initiative. How was it really problematic to manage an initiative for each protagonist in a fight and to organize it all in rounds and combat turns?



Uh, The official Dungeon Master’s Guide Chapter 9, “Dungeon Master’s Workshop" has three optional variant rules offering different ways to handle initiative and one of them is "Side initiative" which is exactly what you can see in the video: each "side" in a combat rolls initiative as a group and all acts together.

I also think we´ve seen different types of actions in the gameplay, IIRC. I think they just tied standard actions as a point action to help people to get track of what kind of action they could make in the same round.

So... technically they are following the rules.

Last edited by _Vic_; 28/02/20 03:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
The official Dungeon Master’s Guide Chapter 9, “Dungeon Master’s Workshop" has three optional variant rules offering different ways to handle initiative and one of them is "Side initiative" which is exactly what you can see in the video: each "side" in a combat rolls initiative as a group and all acts together.

I also think we´ve seen different types of actions in the gameplay, IIRC. I think they just tied standard actions as a point action to help people to get track of what kind of action they could make in the same round.

So... technically they are following the rules.

Absolutely agree. But ... after 31 years of experience on D&D, I have never seen a single person apply this OPTIONAL rule.
This is normal since this rule goes against several rules concerning talents, attributes and even certain spells which grant bonuses to the initiative for the character and not the group.

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Agreed, I´m not really a fan of group initiative either, but at least the guys of Larian seem interested in making a D&D game. I hope they will make this a customizable optional rule that you can turn on and off.

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My understanding the use of the side initiative was to speed up combat. According to someone that got to watch the game a few weeks earlier the combats can get HUGE and with that having a side initiative is much faster. Its also apprently why reactions are not declared and automatic in atleast the current build. I would much prefer an option for both of these things

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#1: As Vic stated, the rule for Side Initiative is in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Each side rolls initiative, so, it isn't unreasonable to expect that there are some bonuses behind the scenes for parties that have more initiative focused characters. Not only that, the flow of combat is improved, especially in a multiplayer scenario. If I'm playing with three other people, and we all get to go on the same turn, it solidifies the group dynamic. I would imagine it would help the pacing of combat too.

#2: There are only 6 classes in early access, but I think it's foolish to think those will be the only classes/races available at launch. The screenshots alone mention a Druid NPC. I would expect Sorcerers, Paladins, Bards, Monks, Barbarians, Sorcerers, and Druids to be in the final game. I think it's reasonable to expect that anything in the Player's Handbook is going to make it in.

#3: The way the game handles perception, investigation, charisma checks, surprise rounds, stealth, and advantage/disadvantage seems very D&D 5e to me. They are literally rolling d20s (sometimes on screen) to judge the success or failure of any given thing. The ability to adapt and improvise after failure is a key aspect to D&D and I like the direction BG3 is going in this regard.

#4: In regards to Action Points...I'm not sure what you mean. I saw that each character had and Action, Bonus Action, and Movement (just like 5e). Now, it's debatable whether things like Jump or Shove should be considered Actions instead of Bonus Actions. Shove as a Bonus Action seems OP to me. But the sentiment to be as true to the spirit of 5e as possible is definitely there.

#5: The character creation screen alone screams 5e. Races, Sub Races, Backgrounds, Point-Buy Stats, and Skill Proficiencies are all there, and I was super excited to see all of that. High Elves get their cantrip, Drow get Dancing Lights...I could go on, but it all seems pretty faithful to the Player's Handbook. The fact that they provided so much in an Alpha build is impressive to me.

#6: I just like seeing spells from 5e realized in-game. Guiding Bolt, Sacred Flame, Mage Hand (might be too OP in the current build), Firebolt, etc.

My one gripe is that I do agree that seeing enemy HP and knowing your Hit Chance is a bit much. I think you could make a case for Hit Chance because, in a table top setting, the group eventually figures out what they need to roll to hit a given thing...but HP? That should be a secret.

Edit: Regarding Reactions. It has been stated that the Reaction system isn't working, but Larian is figuring out how to best implement it with regards to reactionary spells (like Shield or Counterspell) and other such abilities.

Last edited by Gmazca; 28/02/20 04:19 PM.
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5e does have a problem with combat taking too long and as a DM i can tell you initiative orders are a major slowdown on combat.

Now, id say the optional rule is... a copout.

Im willing to agree that the way initiative is handled is a departure from DnD.
I think the reasonf or it is simply to make multiplayer more fun and less "wait for the other player to do something and go read a book".
with 4 player coop this stuff takes a while.

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I agree with your sentiment Sordak. As a DM for 5e myself, initiative has always been a slowdown.

I plan on playing BG3 mostly in multiplayer, so anything to streamline the process is fine by me. The fact that it is an alternate type of initiative in the DM's Guide does go a long way to legitimizing the tactic.

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Originally Posted by Melkyor95
- The initiative
In D&D, there is no group initiative; except, possibly, for very large groups of monsters.
For players, a group initiative system is very disabling! Goodbye the initiative bonuses of each player and Goodbye the Talents which influence the initiative. How was it really problematic to manage an initiative for each protagonist in a fight and to organize it all in rounds and combat turns?


I'll have to go back and watch, but with Team Initiative, are they doing a one side goes first and then the other? Imo video game TB doesn't work great that way or even if individual initiative is used and then we always put lots of points in init so everyone on our side always goes first, because it is that powerful. DOS2 imo corrected it where the individual with highest init goes first and then it goes back and forth each turn side by side, so no one side gets this amazing opener that really tells the tale of the whole fight. I will say this, I am ok staying with the ruleset whatever that is, because. But imo for video games to me it plays much more competitively when it is good turn, bad turn, good turn, bad turn (end of round could be consecutive side turns based on #'s in the fight).

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Originally Posted by Sordak
5th does have a problem with combat taking too long and as a DM i can tell you initiative orders are a major slowdown on combat.

Yes and no. It will mostly depend on the experience of your players.
With players with little or no experience, the fights can indeed last a very long time. Especially when it is necessary to arbitrate on points of rules or clarify them before making combat actions of them. And then the "young" players can waste a lot of time looking for what they can do.
With experienced players, fighting in D & D5 can be very fluid.

-------------

To come back to the way the initiative and the fights are managed in BG3, this poses several problems:
- How are the Reactions managed?
Example: the group is targeted by Fireball. A Wizard can cast Counterspell in Reaction. How will BG3 handle this?

- How is Alert (Feat) managed?

- How is Ready (combat action) managed?

All this to return to my initial question in the first post: what exactly are the D&D5 rules (spells, feats, skills, class, races, etc.) which will be ignored in BG3?
I would really like a response as precise as possible so that I know what to expect.

Last edited by Melkyor95; 29/02/20 12:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by Melkyor95
All this to return to my initial question in the first post: what exactly are the D&D5 rules (spells, feats, skills, class, races, etc.) which will be ignored in BG3?
I would really like a response as precise as possible so that I know what to expect.


These are the types of questions no developer has ever given their player-base, because they know we will hold them to that and they know how much they fudge things. Perhaps this time it will be different.

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Actually, the first thing I thought to myself when I saw the gameplay footage was how closely it follows 5E rules. They did opt, as per page 270 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, to use "side initiative", which is listed (legitimately) as an alternative to standard initiative as others have mentioned here. But they have tried, and for anyone that knows and plays 5E, to remain pretty faithful to the tabletop experience and it was very apparent throughout the gameplay clip.

There are a few 'gameified' situations in the clip, such as using a mage hand to shove an enemy, where shoving is considered an attack action and mage hand can not take any attack actions, but overall I was quite impressed. AP should be renamed to A or Action, BA was Bonus Action, movement speed was separate, at an average of 30' per turn, even his concentration spells would drop when he was attacked and had to roll to maintain concentration, and it also dropped when he casted a second concentration spell. There was dash, disengage, AoO, etc. All quite faithful.

If you are going to accuse them of violating the rule set, you may wish to educate yourself a bit more on it first before you criticize.

Regarding displaying monster/enemy HP, Page 247 says the decision is up to the DM, in this case, Larian to display or not display behind a description of words.

For those of you interested in side initiative, here is the description lifted directly from the DMG, Page 270:

"SIDE INITIATIVE Recording initiative for each PC and monster, arranging everyone in the correct order, and remembering where you are in the list can bog the game down. If you want quicker combats, at the risk of those combats becoming unbalanced, try using the side initiative rule. Under this variant, the players roll a d20 for their initiative as a group, or side. You also roll a d20. Neither roll receives any modifiers. Whoever rolls highest wins initiative. In case of a tie, keep rerolling until the tie is broken. When it's a side's turn, the members of that side can act in any order they choose. Once everyone on the side has taken a turn, the other side goes. A round ends when both sides have completed their turns. If more than two sides take part in a battle, each side rolls for initiative. Sides act from the highest roll to lowest. Combat continues in the initiative order until the battle is complete. This variant encourages teamwork and makes your life as a DM easier, since you can more easily coordinate monsters. On the downside, the side that wins initiative can gang up on enemies and take them out before they have a chance to act."

Last edited by zanos; 29/02/20 12:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by zanos
snip..... here are a few 'gameified' situations in the clip, such as using a mage hand to shove an enemy, where shoving is considered an attack action and mage hand can not take any attack actions. .....snip"



I think I have a reason why the cantrip is more powerful. Swen stats at 0:27:05 in the stream that when he jumped he was helped by the little tadpole in his head. Maybe the Tadpole is enhancing the cantrip to function like it does to allow the shove with the mage hand. It would also explain why there is a spell-like effect when he jumps. (just a speculation until confirmed.)



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Originally Posted by Nobody_Special
Originally Posted by zanos
snip..... here are a few 'gameified' situations in the clip, such as using a mage hand to shove an enemy, where shoving is considered an attack action and mage hand can not take any attack actions. .....snip"



I think I have a reason why the cantrip is more powerful. Swen stats at 0:27:05 in the stream that when he jumped he was helped by the little tadpole in his head. Maybe the Tadpole is enhancing the cantrip to function like it does to allow the shove with the mage hand. It would also explain why there is a spell-like effect when he jumps. (just a speculation until confirmed.)




Ahhh...interesting if true.

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