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Originally Posted by porrage

See I don't mind "some" of the surfaces remaining. I think there's definitely a place for a player to be like "I want to cast freezing ray on the water to freeze it." Those scenarios definitely exist when I'm DMing a game of 5e, and the surface interaction system from DOS2 could make those scenarios a bit more fun. But the problem is that everything seems to make a surface, casting single target spells make a surface at the person's feet regardless (dumb), and they invented random surfaces that don't even exist in 5e (acid splash anyone?).


holy hell yeah, acid splash.
best cantrip in the game, at the moment. no matter if you "hit" or not, they get a pretty nifty debuff, and then the fighter or rogue can make confetti out of them.
there is so much hilariously broken stuff, that comes just from changing 5e rules. and those were deliberate design choices, that don't have anything to do with limitiations of video games.
the good thing is, that 80% of these changes to the rule set can be changed back in about a week or so, because they have a lot to do, with removing effects of spells or changing the cost from bonus action to action. the other 20% could take a bit more, depending on how everything is implemented.
so it isn't hard, to go closer to the 5e ruleset and since we are in early access, it is definitly in the realm of possibility, that they make that change.
and if larian reads the overwhelming majority of posts in this subforum, i think they will do exactly that. because they are a development studio with a heart. smile

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apprentice
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Originally Posted by 1varangian
I fully agree they need to heavily tone down the "fun gameplay" additions they've made to 5e.

This includes:

- dipping weapons into fire (somehow metal catches fire and wood isn't destroyed?)
- eating mundane food items as a bonus action to heal while fighting in melee
- every cantrip creating surfaces (add an option to target ground if you want to create a surface)
- jumping in combat (Rogues and Monks have these abilities, not everyone)
- jumping ridiculously high
- the sheer amount of barrels, explosives, elemental AoE arrows, acid pools etc etc. gamey fun stuff

It's mostly a question of tone. While DOS can be wacky and tongue in cheek and go over the top, Baldurs Gate and D&D can not. BG and DnD carry a more realistic expectation. Original BG, IWD, NWN, all DnD games before have got this right. So let's respect this tradition please.



I pretty much agree with all of this. At first I was super averse to any surfaces that weren't explicitly mentioned in the player's handbook, but I do think there's wiggle room for explicitly targeting a puddle of water with a ray of frost to change the environment (as a DM, I sometimes feel excited when players combine their spells with the environment creatively, and I think there's room for that). And when I say target the puddle, I mean the player making a conscious choice not to target an enemy, but to sacrifice their action to perhaps turn the battle in their favor by interacting with the environment. I don't think that if a player targets a creature, the ground at their feet should change over a single target spell.

I'd love to see spells like Bonfire have a place. It seems like the perfect setup to create a new surface while adhering to the 5e ruleset, but instead they gave that feature to firebolt.



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Originally Posted by mahe4

holy hell yeah, acid splash.
best cantrip in the game, at the moment. no matter if you "hit" or not, they get a pretty nifty debuff, and then the fighter or rogue can make confetti out of them.



When I realized how powerful acid splash was (despite the fact that it can mess up my melee characters if I'm not careful), I immediately regretted my choice in literally every other cantrip for my main character. Originally the power of Acid Splash was that it was a cantrip that could hit two creatures at once. Now it's an AOE that deals damage and lowers AC. Holy hell what's not to love?

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I don't know what everyone is on about. Using cantrips to change an area seems good to me. If anything, id like to see more options for other surface manipulations. Ive played alot of both BG1 & 2 as well as DoS2 - and it simply makes for more creative combat. Why would you want to dumb the game down? Its already quite repetitive to play as a ranger/warrior/thief. I really enjoy jumping around in combat with my high str warrior as well.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
I fully agree they need to heavily tone down the "fun gameplay" additions they've made to 5e.

This includes:

- dipping weapons into fire (somehow metal catches fire and wood isn't destroyed?)
- eating mundane food items as a bonus action to heal while fighting in melee
- every cantrip creating surfaces (add an option to target ground if you want to create a surface)
- jumping in combat (Rogues and Monks have these abilities, not everyone)
- jumping ridiculously high
- the sheer amount of barrels, explosives, elemental AoE arrows, acid pools etc etc. gamey fun stuff

It's mostly a question of tone. While DOS can be wacky and tongue in cheek and go over the top, Baldurs Gate and D&D can not. BG and DnD carry a more realistic expectation. Original BG, IWD, NWN, all DnD games before have got this right. So let's respect this tradition please.
+1

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Originally Posted by Danneuber
Why would you want to dumb the game down?


Not "dumb down", but make it more like the game it is made as - D&D 5e.

None of those effects are present in the tabletop game, and while it may be more interesting to have them, actually having them is turning the game into something else.

Also, many of these effects severely break the balance of 5e, further changing not just the options available, but the very playstyle of what makes 5e into what it is.

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Exactly. The D:OS surface mechanics and D&D 5E rules are very different, and mixing them together is like putting whipped cream on beef stew.

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+1 to the post. There are tones off environment altering spells/ability's in D&D let them be what they are and tone down or take out other spells taking there place (Bonfire, shape earth, control water, black tentacles, ever wall spell...ect ). Why is a brief blast off magic fire setting bricks on fire or a small beam off cold turning the ground to ice when it hit the target? I love the idea of targeting the ground to get these effect but leave the spells as there base versions otherwise.


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Originally Posted by Beenker
The divinity-like additions to this game ruin it.

If the "divinity" parts of this game are not removed, this will go down in history as the worst Baldur's Gate ever made.



Wow. Take easy Champ. I agree that the cantrips needs rework (mostly because they are OP), food shouldn't heal (that is just absurd), and disengage shouldn't be a bonus action together with jump. However, people got really hyperbolic and nitpicking here. The game is awesome. I see the D:OS influency over BG3 as positive, it is cool that the environement plays a role in the game and it is not only background. But yeah, it needs to be toned down a little bit to be more in line with D&D ruleset.

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I don't think anyone wants the environment stuff removed. It's really cool. But it's overpowered and overabundant.

At some point it will also get old that archers are climbing to "high ground" in every single encounter. The terrain and height is really cool, and also rewards versatility (finally a reason to have both str and dex as a fighter since you can't ignore ranged weapons) but when you use surface and height in every single encounter it becomes a chore.

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Originally Posted by Danneuber
I don't know what everyone is on about. Using cantrips to change an area seems good to me. If anything, id like to see more options for other surface manipulations. Ive played alot of both BG1 & 2 as well as DoS2 - and it simply makes for more creative combat. Why would you want to dumb the game down? Its already quite repetitive to play as a ranger/warrior/thief. I really enjoy jumping around in combat with my high str warrior as well.


It's not "dumbing the game down." It's adding in a system that D&D wasn't designed to accommodate, while still trying to pretend the game is 5e. Running through numerous fire surfaces that were generated by spells that weren't designed to make such surfaces and then taking full damage without being afforded a saving throw is so ass backwards for D&D.

As I've said elsewhere: we already have divinity original sin 2; either stick with that and make DOS3, or actually make a D&D game with Baldur's Gate 3. Pick a lane.

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journeyman
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Originally Posted by porrage
Originally Posted by Danneuber
I don't know what everyone is on about. Using cantrips to change an area seems good to me. If anything, id like to see more options for other surface manipulations. Ive played alot of both BG1 & 2 as well as DoS2 - and it simply makes for more creative combat. Why would you want to dumb the game down? Its already quite repetitive to play as a ranger/warrior/thief. I really enjoy jumping around in combat with my high str warrior as well.


It's not "dumbing the game down." It's adding in a system that D&D wasn't designed to accommodate


This. The game simply isn't balanced. The encounters are too hard to play using actual tactics and too easy to cheese with frosty blood and boomy barrels and infinite food/rest. It's a mess.

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I agree with some parts of this thread, but not all of it.

I think the surface system is good, but just like in DOS2, Larian is a bit too liberal with spreading oils and acids around.
It also gets a bit old when every goblin archer seems to be stocked up like a commando wink

I also don't think that Fire Bolt in itself should generate a surface, and neither should ray of frost create a frozen surface,
I think it would make more sense to have them act as catalysts to flammable/ freezable surfaces only.

As for the Disengaging as a Bonus Action, I do agree it is annoying. I can see why it was made the way it is now to create a more "free" feeling, but it kind of ruins the point of trying to tie up the enemy in melee with your heavy hitters to protect your squishies.

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I don't know if I would go so far as to call it DOS3.
DOS2 could get seriously insane with the ground effects! It's what made it fun, but still, insane! I don't feel BG3 is anywhere near those levels. However, I agree that it'll need to go on Cantrips because it makes them way to powerful!

Currently my best way to get through almost every encounter is having 2 mages with Ray of frost. You don't really have to do much damage as long as you make everything fall over. Next you just use you melee guys to kick their lights out while they're on the ground.

Of course there is the other stuff that's absolutely insane like the -2 AC when you accidentally stumble through an acid puddle! That's an insane debuff!

How much fire damage does that cantrip do anyway? I swear I've had Astarion die once because he got hit once, next got fire damage, and started his next round with fire damage. You could call that bad luck, but last time I checked the rules you'd get a save to avoid a fireball. Guess you're reflexes don't work against flames on the ground? (Which is odd because you can make saves against the Ice floor effect?)

So, my suggestion would be, keep the effects for real spells and allow guys to make saves against them. Remove them from the cantrips.



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I really don't like the acid debuff of -2AC that even has the "acid all over you" VFX. What... your armor corrodes and then magically rebuilds itself?

Why does every little cantrip have to have some extra effect on it, even if it doesn't make sense? We have a lot of spells that debuff. Make a Daze cantrip that debuffs AC, it makes sense.

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Is there a way to group up these posts into one megathread of nostalgia and entitlement? There are at least one of these a day, typically two.


I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought.

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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Is there a way to group up these posts into one megathread of nostalgia and entitlement? There are at least one of these a day, typically two.



The original post was practically made in the first first day the game was available. And this is hardly a post about "nostalgia and entitlement." It's legit feedback and if you feel like having a discussion, feel free to post. Otherwise, useless comments like these are... well... useless.

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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Is there a way to group up these posts into one megathread of nostalgia and entitlement? There are at least one of these a day, typically two.


Add something useful or don't make troll posts thanks

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Originally Posted by 1varangian

Why does every little cantrip have to have some extra effect on it, even if it doesn't make sense? We have a lot of spells that debuff. Make a Daze cantrip that debuffs AC, it makes sense.

Maybe because "okay I do 1d6 damage... that's all, your turn" is kinda boring in a video game.

The surfaces are way tuned down from D:OS2 to the point it that all these complaints feel silly. Yes, the party pathfinding needs work to not run into them like idiots, but they have a very small impact on how combat plays out and the game is better for it.

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journeyman
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Originally Posted by Camkitty
And something useful or don't post please


Bruh this is a unmoderated gaming forum, people gonna post whatever they want. If you want a productive discussion go join a community that doesn't suck.

Last edited by Deemer; 10/10/20 08:41 PM.
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