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I don't mind some things, but there's plenty of mechanical changes that simply don't work with the game. So yeah, +1 to the thread.

At least give us the option to turn off surfaces and the like. Like, a list homebrew options we'd like to use, as D&D is at its strongest when you let the table decide how to do things.

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Originally Posted by clanpot
Originally Posted by 1varangian

Why does every little cantrip have to have some extra effect on it, even if it doesn't make sense? We have a lot of spells that debuff. Make a Daze cantrip that debuffs AC, it makes sense.

Maybe because "okay I do 1d6 damage... that's all, your turn" is kinda boring in a video game.



But the overwhelming majority of damaging cantrips don't work this way. You have some high damage cantrips that just deal damage (eldritch blast, firebolt, toll the dead), but the cantrips that deal less damage than the core cantrips usually have some other effect, like giving a creature disadvantage on attacks, moving slower, pulling them closer, forcing them to move away, and so on. Furthermore, they're cantrips. They're supposed to be repeatable spells that are essentially basic attacks for casters. Casters already get way more options to mess with the environment, and to a greater degree, than any of the other classes.

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Originally Posted by porrage
But the overwhelming majority of damaging cantrips don't work this way. You have some high damage cantrips that just deal damage (eldritch blast, firebolt, toll the dead), but the cantrips that deal less damage than the core cantrips usually have some other effect, like giving a creature disadvantage on attacks, moving slower, pulling them closer, forcing them to move away, and so on. Furthermore, they're cantrips. They're supposed to be repeatable spells that are essentially basic attacks for casters. Casters already get way more options to mess with the environment, and to a greater degree, than any of the other classes.

This is a great argument for giving non-casters more and more interesting abilities.

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Originally Posted by clanpot
Originally Posted by porrage
But the overwhelming majority of damaging cantrips don't work this way. You have some high damage cantrips that just deal damage (eldritch blast, firebolt, toll the dead), but the cantrips that deal less damage than the core cantrips usually have some other effect, like giving a creature disadvantage on attacks, moving slower, pulling them closer, forcing them to move away, and so on. Furthermore, they're cantrips. They're supposed to be repeatable spells that are essentially basic attacks for casters. Casters already get way more options to mess with the environment, and to a greater degree, than any of the other classes.

This is a great argument for giving non-casters more and more interesting abilities.



So to balance out a revamp of the cantrips (which are already more interesting and complex by default than regular attacks), there needs to be an overhaul to the core abilities of 6 or so non caster classes?

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Originally Posted by blindhamster
have to admit, yeah I'd generally prefer things moved closer to D&D 5e and further from Divinity, and I do love Divinity. Right now it kind of feels like a game that is struggling with its identity and as a result is putting off D&D 5e fans AND DOS fans.


I agree, and it wasn't advertised as a DOS3, its BG3 and heavily advertised as using 5E rules. So for the divide of people asking for something like a DOS3 and those pleading for it to be actually 5E, Larian will have lied only to the 5E crowd if the game ends up as a DOS3 clone with a light frosting of D&D to it. They never promised DOS3, they have promised 5E in BG3, exhaustively, as a selling point.

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I agree with many of the comments in this thread. The more I look at this game, the more it becomes aparent I'm playing a game built by the makers of DOS1 and 2.

I do not want that, and I hope my $60 spent early is enough moving power for the developers to listen.

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I love D:OS2, but I agree that some of the surfaces and items seem out of place in some areas. Also some of these areas seem lived in enough that people would at least put in a sign that said "Beware of killer vines" or something.

I also agree on the cantrips needing to be just straight damage, or if used on a surface it can ignite/freeze/ect, but not both.

I haven't tried eating food in combat to regain hitpoints because I was playing this like a D&D game, and it didn't cross my mind that it would heal you in combat. I can see a case being made for it being able to heal some out of combat, because of how wonky the rest system is at the moment, or add some health packs/bandages or something. I have some faith they plan on adding some of this in later patches, but we'll see.

The big problem between trying to play 5e like a video game is that a session in 5e is probably one to two encounters and then you can rest, but for characters exploring a wilderness like we start in, they aren't going to be stopping every ten minutes to rest, so there needs to be some concession to making the game flow smoother (like eating food out of combat to regain hit points, leave potions and bandages for combat). That said, we also want health, spell slots, and resting to matter so it is going to be tricky finding that balance.

Lastly I like the idea of dipping your weapons, but I think without a durability system it is just another way to cheese the game. It doesn't really fit with D&D. I would love to see it in D:OS3, but it feels like it fits that world, and doesn't really feel like it fits in D&D (unless there's a chance your weapon will break every time you dip, with a higher chance for wood weapons, and a lower chance for magical weapons maybe?)

I can't wait to see how this game turns out though and I'll keep playing as I can.


Reality is Merely and Illusion, Albeit a very persistant one - Albert Einstein
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+1. Copying from the other 5e thread:


Please please please this.

Why is there no dodge? Why can everyone bonus action disengage?

Verticality is strong enough as a way to gain cover/LOS enemies. It doesn't need to also make it WAY easier to hit enemies from as well, because it makes there be no point to playing a STR character when you could just run DEX with a heavy crossbow, take highground, and never miss a shot or take damage. Every single encounter overground allows this: The Gith patrol, the Gnolls, inside and outside the goblin camp, Blighted Village incl. the ogres.

Why is there so much access to healing via food, potions, and short/long rests? Why bother with a cleric? (Compounded by the ability for wizards to learn healing spells)

% to hit vs dice roll just feels way worse, especially because sometimes you'll get numbers that are just mathematically impossible to get on a d20 system. 99% to hit? Sure. How?

Why are throwables so common? Why does everyone have alchemists fire/acid/bombs? One to two a fight from a unique enemy type among goblins would be fine, I guess, but its way too common now. Fire Bolt and Acid Splash should NOT be the way they are now. Conversely, I will say I like the throwables you get from the Nautiloid - they're unique and you won't find them past the starting area (for at least a long while). Extremely limited unique effects for players to play with is fun! Having 19 alchemists fire, one for every combat in the game, is not!

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+1 to the post.
Especially the exploding barrels/surfaces do not give me the feeling of playing a D&D game.

And every time I have the feeling that something is not right / too strong and I check the intranet if this is really 5e or not (I only know 3.5e), it always turns out that it is a Larian house rule that completely destroys the balance between mage user and fighter.

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I respectfully disagree. What we have is what I think is a brilliant compromise between 5e (which would NOT be fun if strictly brought into video game format) and what Larian's proven to be successful (DOS2). IMO I'm super impressed with the adaptation.

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Adding my voice in support as well.

It really feels like they took div sin 2 and tried to tweak it to kinda resemble 5e instead of just making a 5e game.

There is a lot of div sin in this game that doesn't need to be in it:
- Finding 500 consumable potions/food/scrolls/bombs every 5 feet is just annoying as it clutters your inventory and hotbars.
- Having 50 different lootable bookshelves/boxes/vases in every room is also annoying. This is not div sin. We don't have lucky looter. I am fine with some RNG loot to make playthroughs more varied but it is just annoying looting 50 empty book cases in a room.
- Explodey barrels and such in many encounters, i get it, you want more clever ways to get through encounters but it shouldnt be so common. why are there a buncha explodey barrels in some crypt some people are robbing? who leaves those there?
- as has been mention, jumping in combat is totally OP.

I think a lot of it comes down to them wanting it to be a more action-focused game like div sin 1-2 rather than a more hardcore experience like BG1/2 and stuff like Pathfinder Kingmaker.
from an economical standpoint they may choose (or kinda have to) stick with that to turn a big profit... though maybe it would be more profitable if it was a true D&D game?

There is a couple of ways to make it win-win though:
1. Pull a Total War: Three Kingdoms and have two modes of play. Give us the Div Sin mode and the 5E mode.
2. Modders will create the 5E mode.

I hope they go with #1 even though modders would tweak it further I am sure, but I could see them picking #2 since it takes less effort from them. But look at Pathfinder Kingmaker recently putting full turn based mode out years after release after seeing the success of a mod. Turn based mode made that game 10x better than playing it real time. So there are definitely ways to keep fans of 5E and Div sin happy.


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So much of the combat feels "wacky" to me. Getting stunned by blood dripping from the enemy. Getting proned from a "greaseray" (frostray). I love so many aspects of the game. They try to stay gritty and serious with the setting, but then we get wacky videogamey Larian combat. I actually like the Larian games, but the worst part is that they add damaging surfaces to every combat so you just stay at your spot and avoid moving when necessary. This is anthetical to D&D. D&D already has massive spells that change surfaces. Stick to that. Larian, you don't need to add your gimmick to every cantrip.

Last edited by Ascorius; 10/10/20 10:12 PM.
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to the people that say, that combat would be too boring with true 5e rules:
Have you actually played 5e yet?
i mean, yeah, there can be some repetitiveness, but that can easily be mitigated, by making standard actions a single click.
assign a cantrip as your main way to attack and then all you have to do is click on the enemy and end your turn.
that would speed up combat a lot.
i understand, that they try to make every encounter special this way, but all these ground effects just make every battle to a combat puzzle. and i get easily tired to think about all the 100 options every turn, because of all the spells and items i have.
combat is important, but larian has proven with this very early access release, that story telling is their strong side and they should focus on that.
combat is just part of telling a story. and often video games have a lot more combat encounters that TT games. but that is the very reason, why combat should be speed up. it is slowed down considerably by complicating all the 5e rules.

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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Is there a way to group up these posts into one megathread of nostalgia and entitlement? There are at least one of these a day, typically two.


+1

Lets give them a room with all kinds of dices, rule books and assorted figurines, don't forget the measuring tapes for the most hardcore DMs, and then lets get a great VIDEO GAME.

Last edited by Firesong; 10/10/20 10:45 PM.

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Originally Posted by Firesong
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Is there a way to group up these posts into one megathread of nostalgia and entitlement? There are at least one of these a day, typically two.


+1

Lets give them a room with all kinds of dices, rule books and assorted figurines, don't forget the measuring tapes for the most hardcore DMs, and then lets get a great VIDEO GAME.


can we just move all the trolls in another forum, if we are at it, so we don't have to deal with YOUR entitlement?

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Originally Posted by mahe4
Originally Posted by Firesong
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Is there a way to group up these posts into one megathread of nostalgia and entitlement? There are at least one of these a day, typically two.


+1

Lets give them a room with all kinds of dices, rule books and assorted figurines, don't forget the measuring tapes for the most hardcore DMs, and then lets get a great VIDEO GAME.


can we just move all the trolls in another forum, if we are at it, so we don't have to deal with YOUR entitlement?


+1

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Yeah one issue I found with BG3 EA, despite enjoying it immensely, is how much Divinity is in it. There is way too much Divinity in BG3. I wouldn't say its DOS3 but I'd say its Divinity: Baldurs Gate 3.

I've been playing a mage main and well, I don't really see the point of long rests? Beyond healing? I primarily use cantrips to kill things. Their initial damage isn't amazing but the surface fire deals damage overtime that blasts my other spells out of the water. And Acid splash is amazing with lowering AC. In essence I'm using them more for their surface effects rather than direct impact on hit. Which is more of a Divinity thing than it is DnD.

While its kind of neat that cantrips are super useful even in late EA combat, its kinda odd seeing it be the preferable tactic in my case to using anything else.

Less surface focused stuff would be nice, less random explosive barrels. That just screams video games and is more of a Divinity thing.

I'm also not a fan of how every character in your party is somewhat a special snowflake. I get that its because each of them is suppose to be a main character, but at this point its a party of main characters. And that feels incredibly silly. I can't imagine seeing a party like this in a tabletop game without most folk going "what are you doing thats a bit much dont you think?". That, while not a mechanic, feels more like Divinity thing than a DnD thing to me. In essence "This would only ever happen in these super extremely specific circumstances and only be held together by these specific contrived circumstances." type deal. Though DOS2 handled this infinitely better with the party and it didn't feel nearly as silly. Bit too over the top for DnD but that might just be how I experience the tabletop?

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I requested this thread and the similar one be added to the feedback compendium: http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=687814#Post687814

Although, it's a bit general so specific requests from the thread may still need to be added.


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I think the ground effects have their place, they just have to be proportionate to the spell they are coming from. As i am sure many other posters have pointed out, setting the ground on fire feels right for a fireball spell. Firebolt on the other hand shouldn't. Perhaps having a very slim chance would be ok (rolling a 20 anyone?) but even then 5e has its way of dealing with crits which is already adequate.

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Originally Posted by noodles666
I think the ground effects have their place, they just have to be proportionate to the spell they are coming from. As i am sure many other posters have pointed out, setting the ground on fire feels right for a fireball spell. Firebolt on the other hand shouldn't. Perhaps having a very slim chance would be ok (rolling a 20 anyone?) but even then 5e has its way of dealing with crits which is already adequate.

exactly. as i already said on multiple threads, ground effects are nice. but if a cantrip can cause all these, then it isn't rewarding anymore, it's just normal gameplay.
that makes ground effects a lot less exciting in a game, that isn't based/build around these mechanics (like DOS 1 and 2 are).
dnd 5e has a lot of game mechanics. i think that stuffing even more mechanics in there overwhelms players, that don't know 5e yet ant need to learn it (together with all the extra mechanics that larian invented)
and all players, that already know 5e mechanics are pissed, because it imbalances everything.
ground effects shouldn't be the main selling point for BG3. it will just be called DOS 3. BG3 main selling point should be the dnd rule set.

Last edited by mahe4; 11/10/20 02:15 PM.
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