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Yeah - I agree larian won’t remove the essence of what made them successful- this game definitely feels like D&D to me. The effort that’s clearly gone in already is amazing.
Realistically a lot of the core feedback around mechanics of the game only really need a bit of balancing & maybe yes some removal of things - not completely as this game is targeting a wide audience & it’s really going for the doctor in terms of scope - I think over time this game is really going to be something special - I want them to keep up the quality throughout the whole game and if that means some reliance on previous LarianIP then so be it.

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Originally Posted by N7Greenfire
How far in actually are you? They go out of their way to make the goblin camp fertile with barrels and the like as its the first non missable dungeon of the game, but i don't think if seen a barrel since then, no one in the underdark.

Literally everywhere.

In the Underdark it's explosive mushrooms. Mushrooms that create gas clouds. Gas clouds which are highly explosive. Boom boom boom.

At this point I believe Larian is simply unable to create any area that doesn't have big chain reaction explosions and hazards everywhere.

Just like every single fight comes down to who has the high ground. Tactical positioning is really cool but there isn't a single fight where you are not playing king of the hill and shoving enemies down. Ever. It becomes one dimensional, forced and boring.

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UI and Party controls hardly has anything to do with DnD 5e though, you are muddling together two topics I feel.

I totally agree that Larian needs to read the Players Handbook again, and all the spell rules, and make the game like that first, then see where they can add the "Larian flair". While I think the game feels like DnD and not DOS2, the game feels like it was adapted from DOS2, and they haven't adapted all the functionality yet.

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I guess "D&D From the ground" doesn't mean they should remove what makes their success.

Their mechanics are awesome but I think the Larian / D&D balance is not good at the moment.
D&D should be the basis while the Larian touch should enhance the experience.

Currently the game is played very little like an improved D&D game, it is mostly played as a modified/improved Larian game.

I guess it's a matter of opinion but I'm not here because it's a Larian game smile
(nor because it's the "only" D&D5e experience)

Anyway I trust them and I think it's still time to anything. It's all about balance and how a few mechanics are actually timplemented.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 06/11/20 09:34 AM.
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I like the Divinity engine. But I agree the starting point should be core 5e D&D rules before moving forward. Currently everyone is arguing the merits of the homebrew stuff vs the 5e rule set that hasn't even been implemented. How can you argue something is better/worse if it hasn't been tried? Make barrels heavy so you cannot pick them up. If the 5e rules suck in game then change it but at least try.

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I think the consensus at the moment among gamers is the Larian mechanics are too over the top compared to D&D core rules and should be toned down. And if we keep commenting on the matter, they might eventually tweak some stuff.

Personally my concern is barrelmancy and hoardermancy being so powerful, it will overshadow spells like fireball or cone of cold. And it would be quite sad.

Last edited by Nyanko; 06/11/20 09:49 AM.
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The game doesn’t need to fit your idea of 5th edition. Dos with 5th edition flavour. What is exactly wrong with that? Nothing. DoS series sold very well And is an award winning formula, combined with 5th edition flavour, is a winning strategy.

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Originally Posted by Nyanko
I think the consensus at the moment among gamers is the Larian mechanics are too over the top compared to D&D core rules and should be toned down. And if we keep commenting on the matter, they might eventually tweak some stuff.

Personally my concern is barrelmancy and hoardermancy being so powerful, it will overshadow spells like fireball or cone of cold. And it would be quite sad.


I wouldn't call it a consensus. In fact, the players hardly agree on anything, just go to the Steam forum, it looks different there than here.
And as for overshadow it won't be a problem (at least for most), the game doesn't really give you any reason to use them, unlike the broken height advantage (trying to avoid it is hard).
If someone really takes care of stacking barrels, and at the same time hates this mechanic, he will spoil the game himself. The game as it stands is very simple.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 06/11/20 12:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit

Combat

But you are right about environmental effects. Combat feels like Larian. Meaning it's fun but it's not D&D. Environment is just Larian's thing. Did you freeze that pool of water, blow up that brine solution, find your way to high ground?

This mirrors DOS which was all about surfaces -- how do you get yourself on the surface you want to be on and your enemy of the surface they don't want to be on. If you are on a surface you don't want to be on is it better to nullify it or make the most of it? I just feels like the people who designed the combat didn't fully understand or appreciate D&D combat. Well, and we know this for a fact because Larian told us they didn't like D&D combat. And that's what upsetting people -- to succeed you need to think like a DOS fan and not, say, an IWD fan.

In IWD you get "advantage" by casting buffing spells, using magic items and/or through you class features. Good party builds / good use of spells won the day. In BG3 I use firebolt and magic missile more often than not. Let's blow up that barrel that seems to have made its way to just the right spot. And I'm not going to waste a spell slot on bless -- the AC is already lowered and combat is going to over soon anyway. Why lose a turn using Faerie Fire when you can just jump up a ledge to get advantage?

This is my only problem with BG3. And it's a big one. Most other aspects of BG3 are great but the most important one is not.

DOS exists. Don't mutilate D&D combat into a half arsed replica of the DOS system. I can go play DOS already.

This game is D&D and it's Baldur's Gate. The focus here should be character builds and teamwork, with the environment and surface stuff as spice. And about resource management and smart resting. But it's completely flipped around in BG3. It's all about uber powerful high ground, shoving ridiculous distances, blowing up barrels and mushrooms, eating magic food for unlimited healing and long resting whenever, with a small spice of D&D sprinkled on top for show.

It's time for Larian to prove they are not one trick ponies who can only make environmental puzzle gameplay where everything is overpowered and comical.

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Originally Posted by T2aV
The game doesn’t need to fit your idea of 5th edition. Dos with 5th edition flavour. What is exactly wrong with that? Nothing. DoS series sold very well And is an award winning formula, combined with 5th edition flavour, is a winning strategy.


What is wrong with that?

Quote
From the creators of Divinity: Original Sin 2 comes a next-generation RPG, set in the world of Dungeons and Dragons.

(snip) based on the D&D 5e ruleset.

Baldur's Gate 3 Steam Page


Larian was contracted by the WotC to created a game based on the 5e ruleset. They have promoted the game as based on the 5e ruleset. They have sold copies of the game based on their claims that they're following the 5e ruleset.

Right now this is a hodgepodge of incompatible rules and systems created with two completely different gameplay balances in mind.

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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
I guess I'd need to hear an example of what a D&D game is, because a 5e ruleset on the backdrop of The Forgotten Realms feels like a D&D game to me.
I'm playing through DOS2 for the 7th time and alternate back and forth between the games, and the core feel and tone are very, very different.


If you play BG1 and 2, or the Icewind Dale series, or Kingmaker (since Pathfinder is just off brand D&D), just about every element of the gameplay in those games is tied to the ruleset they're adapting. Class features are the go to (and almost only) tool players have to deal with combat which makes the D&D classes the stars of the show. In BG3, my class features haven't played as big a role in my progressing through the early access build as the elements brought over from DoS. My fighter eats food to heal more often than he uses his second wind, because it's just more effective and plentiful. Astarion is casting spells from scrolls about as often as he's setting up a sneak attack because I've got a zillion scrolls and they don't need stealth or an ally nearby. And if I can carry an explosive barrel or two around with me I am, because setting one of those up and then firebolting it does way more damage than anything Gale can do by himself at level 4. The end result is that the classes don't actually feel very important and none of the class features seem especially useful, so the parts of the game that are unique to 5e D&D really take a back seat the parts that remind me of DoS2.

I don't want every spell scroll, barrel, or bit of food removed from the game, I just want the game designed so that the classes and which ones are in the party feel more important to the gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Mogan
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
I guess I'd need to hear an example of what a D&D game is, because a 5e ruleset on the backdrop of The Forgotten Realms feels like a D&D game to me.
I'm playing through DOS2 for the 7th time and alternate back and forth between the games, and the core feel and tone are very, very different.


If you play BG1 and 2, or the Icewind Dale series, or Kingmaker (since Pathfinder is just off brand D&D), just about every element of the gameplay in those games is tied to the ruleset they're adapting. Class features are the go to (and almost only) tool players have to deal with combat which makes the D&D classes the stars of the show. In BG3, my class features haven't played as big a role in my progressing through the early access build as the elements brought over from DoS. My fighter eats food to heal more often than he uses his second wind, because it's just more effective and plentiful. Astarion is casting spells from scrolls about as often as he's setting up a sneak attack because I've got a zillion scrolls and they don't need stealth or an ally nearby. And if I can carry an explosive barrel or two around with me I am, because setting one of those up and then firebolting it does way more damage than anything Gale can do by himself at level 4. The end result is that the classes don't actually feel very important and none of the class features seem especially useful, so the parts of the game that are unique to 5e D&D really take a back seat the parts that remind me of DoS2.

I don't want every spell scroll, barrel, or bit of food removed from the game, I just want the game designed so that the classes and which ones are in the party feel more important to the gameplay.


BG3 is set in the world of D&D and is based on the 5e ruleset. Expecting a faithful 1:1 interpretation 20 years after any of those games were relevant is a bit silly. There are a lot of quality of life changes that I'm thankful for. Not feeling constantly deprived or starved of resources streamlines the flow of the game. Later down the line, it won't be as viable to eat an apple as opposed to using Second Wind. Shooting an explosive barrel likely won't be viable in every situation at mid to endgame. This is still early access and although the retail release likely won't be dramatically different, I think it's silly to shove two decades of advances and sensibility in RPGs under the rug just because you're not struggling as hard as you think you should be to preserve an odd sense of integrity.

And if you want the experience of feeling like a Cleric is your only option for healing and the whim of your dice rolls is your only option for damage, you could certainly just play the game in that fashion. It's a weird thing to complain about optional accessibility and then choose to reap the benefits of it. The beauty of this game is, you can choose to play how you'd like, and asking for things to be removed because they don't suit you to preserve your nostalgia and claim that "this isn't Baldur's Gate" when you could simply just not do those things is ridiculous.


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Originally Posted by Aurgelmir
UI and Party controls hardly has anything to do with DnD 5e though, you are muddling together two topics I feel.

I totally agree that Larian needs to read the Players Handbook again, and all the spell rules, and make the game like that first, then see where they can add the "Larian flair". While I think the game feels like DnD and not DOS2, the game feels like it was adapted from DOS2, and they haven't adapted all the functionality yet.


The UI has everything to do with D&D, because its job is to convey all the elements and information of the game's ruleset to the player in an effective way. Party control is important for any CRPG, D&D or not, and is a fundamental element of game design that should be designed around the needs of the game. Currently, the UI doesn't coveny 5e D&D well at all and the party controls make playing the game a chore. These issues are especially irritating for somebody who has seen both done far better in CRPGs for the last twenty years (including the two previous games in the series BG3 proports to be a part of).

I'd be way less worried about this is Larian's last two games hadn't used very similar UIs and basically identical control schemes, which makes me think this is just how they do things and not a crude first effort for early access that they'll continue building on.

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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
[quote=Mogan]

BG3 is set in the world of D&D and is based on the 5e ruleset. Expecting a faithful 1:1 interpretation 20 years after any of those games were relevant is a bit silly.

Almost half of the times I'm crossing you, you keep using this argument about "20 years old design" but I'm not sure if I've ever seen a sensible argument about why this "new and modern" take would be an improvement in any discernable way.
This, even ignoring that Pathfinder is actually a 2018 release. One that technical issues aside got almost universal praise despise its limited budget, I may add.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Originally Posted by Tzelanit
Originally Posted by Mogan
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
I guess I'd need to hear an example of what a D&D game is, because a 5e ruleset on the backdrop of The Forgotten Realms feels like a D&D game to me.
I'm playing through DOS2 for the 7th time and alternate back and forth between the games, and the core feel and tone are very, very different.


If you play BG1 and 2, or the Icewind Dale series, or Kingmaker (since Pathfinder is just off brand D&D), just about every element of the gameplay in those games is tied to the ruleset they're adapting. Class features are the go to (and almost only) tool players have to deal with combat which makes the D&D classes the stars of the show. In BG3, my class features haven't played as big a role in my progressing through the early access build as the elements brought over from DoS. My fighter eats food to heal more often than he uses his second wind, because it's just more effective and plentiful. Astarion is casting spells from scrolls about as often as he's setting up a sneak attack because I've got a zillion scrolls and they don't need stealth or an ally nearby. And if I can carry an explosive barrel or two around with me I am, because setting one of those up and then firebolting it does way more damage than anything Gale can do by himself at level 4. The end result is that the classes don't actually feel very important and none of the class features seem especially useful, so the parts of the game that are unique to 5e D&D really take a back seat the parts that remind me of DoS2.

I don't want every spell scroll, barrel, or bit of food removed from the game, I just want the game designed so that the classes and which ones are in the party feel more important to the gameplay.


BG3 is set in the world of D&D and is based on the 5e ruleset. Expecting a faithful 1:1 interpretation 20 years after any of those games were relevant is a bit silly. There are a lot of quality of life changes that I'm thankful for. Not feeling constantly deprived or starved of resources streamlines the flow of the game. Later down the line, it won't be as viable to eat an apple as opposed to using Second Wind. Shooting an explosive barrel likely won't be viable in every situation at mid to endgame. This is still early access and although the retail release likely won't be dramatically different, I think it's silly to shove two decades of advances and sensibility in RPGs under the rug just because you're not struggling as hard as you think you should be to preserve an odd sense of integrity.

And if you want the experience of feeling like a Cleric is your only option for healing and the whim of your dice rolls is your only option for damage, you could certainly just play the game in that fashion. It's a weird thing to complain about optional accessibility and then choose to reap the benefits of it. The beauty of this game is, you can choose to play how you'd like, and asking for things to be removed because they don't suit you to preserve your nostalgia and claim that "this isn't Baldur's Gate" when you could simply just not do those things is ridiculous.

I didn't say anything about making a 1:1 recreation of the old infinity engine games, I explained why their D&D rulesets defined those games far more than 5e is defining BG3. And the controls and UI of BG3 do not reflect two decades of game design advancement. Virtually EVERY CRPG since BG1 has controlled more easily and quickly than Larian's clunky one-selected-character-only system, and their UIs managed to convey information on their rules more effectively. I don't want actual quality of life advancements thrown out, I just want BG3 to be a D&D game first.
You're right, this is still early access and Larian has a long way and I'm sure a lot of changes to go before final release. But the point of EA is for players to provide feedback on what they'd like those changes to be.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Tzelanit
[quote=Mogan]

BG3 is set in the world of D&D and is based on the 5e ruleset. Expecting a faithful 1:1 interpretation 20 years after any of those games were relevant is a bit silly.

Almost half of the times I'm crossing you, you keep using this argument about "20 years old design" but I'm not sure if I've ever seen a sensible argument about why this "new and modern" take would be an improvement in any discernable way.
This, even ignoring that Pathfinder is actually a 2018 release. One that technical issues aside got almost universal praise despise its limited budget, I may add.


I provided a fairly specific example of how the overall experience feels better when you're not just stuck chowing down scarce consumables and relying on healing spells from a specific class to progress.
Giving the player an option to remove pointless downtime that was once considered to be "roleplaying" but was really just how we justified the limitations of the technology at the time is a "new and modern" take that's an improvement.

Willingly ignoring the sensible arguments just because they don't line up with your thinking or expectations don't mean that they're not there.


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Ground up is a bit dramatic. There is a good base setup already here, with some great things. However, just like a lot of threads have pointed out, there is a lot that needs to change to give this game a clear identity as a DnD game . Surface effects, cantrips, height advantage, backstab, food, push, disengage, jump, hide, dodge, ready, reactions, stealth, barrels, special arrows... etc etc etc

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Originally Posted by Mogan
The result of all this is that BG3 in its current form feels like I'm playing DoS with a 5e conversion mod on it, and not a game that was designed from the ground up as a 5e CRPG.

Agreed!

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Well, it's far too late for anything to happen "from the ground up". The "ground" is far, far behind us now.

Not really. These are carry-overs of the engine. Time and work just needs to be put into these areas instead of leaving them as they were from a previous (unrelated) game franchise.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian


But the original post was spot on. There's too much of the divinity DNA in BG3 to my liking, and not enough D&D.




Could you please give a definition of what "being D&D" means for you?

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