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ThreeL Offline OP
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Dear Larian and community

yes this is my first post here. But it's very important to me to show and share my thoughts on BG3, so which place could be better than the official forum?

I read alot of threads here and iam sad that it turned out the way i recognized in quite alot of games. The discussions getting toxic when people don't agree on something and what should bring us together (the game we are all waiting for!), divides us. Please don't make this mistake. Stay polite and respect the opinion of other people, instead of insulting them. We all want a good game and especially when alot of people say something there could be at least a little truth in it.

About me: i have to admit that i am a hardcore fan of Infinity games, especially BG2 fan and for me it is the best rpg ever made. I am also not even 30, so maybe the point of view and opinion from someone who is a bit younger is also helpful. English is not my mother tongue so please forgive my mistakes. I will try to write this in a constructive way and not totally driven by emotions. I also like DOS 1 +2 alot. Obviously these are incredible games, and i really appreciate them alot.

Atmosphere

I first want to describe my initial thoughts while watching the livestream (yes this is emotional and just my own oppinion!) and my oppinion about the atmosphere in general:

The first render trailer was incredibly well done and a very good initial showing of a big threat and of course you think "okay, i am the hero, my mission is to stop this, Iam ready". I was quite hyped, but i also thought its possibly a bit over the top.
When I saw the ongoing gameplay, I was seriously surprised, because i was not expecting that its THAT MUCH like DOS, especially when its about atmosphere, characters and the overall feeling.

Baldurs Gate was always to me (or forgotten realms in general) a very dirty, harsh nearby mediaeval world.
In Baldurs Gate 1 you start safely, but after Gorion was murdered, you're on your own, you discover a world full of maniacs and danger. One of the first companions is Xzar (take a look on his portrait and you know what iam talking about!).
In Baldurs Gate 2 youre directly in trouble, being tortured in an laboratory also full of maniacs, cruelties and after you come out you're again discovering a world you dont know anything about. In the first few hours you're going to the slums in the tavern, and there are a bunch of drunken, rude people, some grim dwarfs, slaves, prostitutes, dogfights - its just not a nice place!
You also have it in Neverwinter Nights for example, where a plague is going on, everything is dangerous and dirty.
On the other side you also have some rightgeous knights fighting for good, but still in a bad bad world.

This is how i always saw BG2 and what i experienced while watching the BG3 gameplay was completely different.
In general it reminded me alot on the general style of DOS. Everything felt very colorful, bright, nice and just much too clean.

I can imagine, that this is a general problem of the engine. Or maybe its possible to add some shaders to fix it.
Even the initial fight against those Intellect Devourers felt too "cartoony". There is fire, there is blood, and little brains are attacking you. Just on its own its should show some brutality, some horror, but i didn't felt like this is transported properly.

Characters

Also the characters on its own doesn't fit in my opinion.
The vampire doesn't has anything todo with the image portrayed in baldurs gate and other forgotten realms stuff. Vampires are pure evil, some fucked up guys, monsters. And this guy was more the most klischee hollywood vampire possible. This barouque touch this guy and a few other scenes had, simply doesn't fit it the world.

Also the teased backstory about the characters where too much over the top. Its like everyone you showed is some extremely special person on its own and together they're like a bunch of super heroes. What we had in Baldurs Gate? A grim dwarf who does everything for money. A ranger whos talking to his hamster. A knight who has a sister and a crazy stepdad. They where interesting through conversation, their character, their problems, thoughts - but NEVER because of something that made themselves extremely rare in this world. They were all some kind of grounded people who tried to survive, fight for their believings or go their way in the world of forgotten realms. And this is in my opinion already a major difference between character design! And they didn't felt interesting on its own. They really dont need some super "origin", they need just some remindable attributes.

Dialogues

They felt not authentic to be honest. They had this horrible experience and it begins with "Oh.. its you". On some situations it didn't feel natural or believable that theyre talking like this - especially wih those voices. The level of emotions were not on a level i know and love from BG2. This was especially for 2000 mindblowing for a game. They did an incredible job and alot of phrases from the npcs are stuck in my mind even until now.


Humor


You even had in BG2 some situations that were a bit funny or some jokes. But i really hope there is not this typical Divinity humor in it. It fits to DOS, but seriously not in BG. The bard was... let's not talk about it. For me unfitting humor is also destroying movies for me, like the Hobbit or the new Star Wars episodes, so please don't do the mistake and implement slapstick humor in a world, that is not build in this like forgotten realms!


Gameplay/Animations

I have to admit i would prefer the pausable realtime like in BG2 (by the way which is also in the core turn based!!), but i guess this was expectable from larian. It was alot of fun in DOS, so lets see. This is a point were iam a bit disappointed, but not hugely negative. I just hope, that not every fight is about getting high ground. That would be too much. I am also not sure what i should think about one group first than the complete other.

The animations also reminded me too much on DOS. For example the jumping animation. Its in general "too much". I really like that youre able to interact so much with the enviroment, but those hulk like jumping is too much - and not even D&D. Youre justifying alot with "we want D&D experience" but for example the jump is not D&D at all.

That you can only have four partymembers also forces you to take always a fighter, one mage, one healer, and one for traps/lockpicking. There is no room anymore for experiments and mixing like it was possible in bg2. Who would take a bard for example now?

General thoughts

I guess the similarities between the beginning of the bg3 gameplay demo and the beginning of dos2 are also kind of a negative point. Why there not stranding in the mountains or the forest or whatever. It needs something own in my opinion. Maybe this is also the source of that thinking of "this is too much os2".

Two things that bothered me alot were that feeling of "everything is too much" and those "origins":

About the feeling: the content of the origin stories, the animations... it felt too much over the top, which is fitting for DOS but not BG, not forgotten realms nor D&D.

I also dont like the concept of those origins: I can pick a character and add his background and quests, problems etc. to my game experience. And when i choose to make my own character the story will be just "less"? It was in BG always about the world gives you the story, the past was introduced to you and you can be inside this world whoever you want. As a BG fan i really disagree to the concept of origins. Also on DOS2 not choosing a pre constructed was a disadvantage.

I can understand that Larian wants to deliver something they re good at and know how to do it, but i would love if they would go out of their comfort zone and think deeply what Baldurs Gate is, what it makes special and what it gave so many gamers. I know its pre alpha, but i think its important to address our thoughts as early as possible to help making them the best game possible - and i really hope that Larian is willed to change some things in its core.

Last edited by ThreeL; 02/03/20 12:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by ThreeL
Dear Larian and community

yes this is my first post here. But it's very important to me to show and share my thoughts on BG3, so which place could be better than the official forum?

I read alot of threads here and iam sad that it turned out the way i recognized in quite alot of games. The discussions getting toxic when people don't agree on something and what should bring us together (the game we are all waiting for!), divides us. Please don't make this mistake. Stay polite and respect the opinion of other people, instead of insulting them. We all want a good game and especially when alot of people say something there could be at least a little truth in it.

About me: i have to admit that i am a hardcore fan of Infinity games, especially BG2 fan and for me it is the best rpg ever made. I am also not even 30, so maybe the look and opinion from someone who is a bit younger is also helpful. English is not my mother tongue so please forgive my mistakes. I will try to write this in a constructive way and not totally driven by emotions. I also like DOS 1 +2 alot. Obviously these are incredible games, and i really appreciate them alot.

Atmosphere

I first want to describe my initial thoughts while watching the livestream (yes this is emotional and just my own oppinion!) and my oppinion about the atmosphere in general:

The first render trailer was incredibly well done and a very good initial showing of a big threat and of course you think "okay, i am the hero, my mission is to stop this, Iam ready". I was quite hyped, but i also thought its possibly a bit over the top.
When I saw the ongoing gameplay, I was seriously surprised, because i was not expecting that its THAT MUCH like DOS, especially when its about atmosphere, characters and the overall feeling.

Baldurs Gate was always to me (or forgotten realms in general) a very dirty, harsh nearby mediaeval world.
In Baldurs Gate 1 you start safely, but after Gorion was murdered, you're on your own, you discover a world full of maniacs and danger. One of the first companions is Xzar (take a look on his portrait and you know what iam talking about!).
In Baldurs Gate 2 youre directly in trouble, being tortured in an laboratory also full of maniacs, cruelties and after you come out you're again discovering a world you dont know anything about. In the first few hours you're going to the slums in the tavern, and there are a bunch of drunken, rude people, some grim dwarfs, slaves, prostitutes, dogfights - its just not a nice place!
You also have it in Neverwinter Nights for example, where a plague is going on, everything is dangerous and dirty.
On the other side you also have some rightgeous knights fighting for good, but still in a bad bad world.

This is how i always saw BG2 and what i experienced while watching the BG3 gameplay was completely different.
In general it reminded me alot on the general style of DOS. Everything felt very colorful, bright, nice and just much too clean.

I can imagine, that this is a general problem of the engine. Or maybe its possible to add some shaders to fix it.
Even the initial fight against those Intellect Devourers felt too "cartoony". There is fire, there is blood, and little brains are attacking you. Just on its own its should show some brutality, some horror, but i didn't felt like this is transported properly.

Characters

Also the characters on its own doesn't fit in my opinion.
The vampire doesn't has anything todo with the image portrayed in baldurs gate and other forgotten realms stuff. Vampires are pure evil, some fucked up guys, monsters. And this guy was more the most klischee hollywood vampire possible. This barouque touch this guy and a few other scenes had, simply doesn't fit it the world.

Also the teased backstory about the characters where too much over the top. Its like everyone you showed is some extremely special person on its own and together they're like a bunch of super heroes. What we had in Baldurs Gate? A grim dwarf who does everything for money. A ranger whos talking to his hamster. A knight who has a sister and a crazy stepdad. They where interesting through conversation, their character, their problems, thoughts - but NEVER because of something that made themselves extremely rare in this world. They were all some kind of grounded people who tried to survive, fight for their believings or go their way in the world of forgotten realms. And this is in my opinion already a major difference between character design! And they didn't felt interesting on its own. They really dont need some super "origin", they need just some remindable attributes.

Dialogues

They felt not authentic to be honest. They had this horrible experience and it begins with "Oh.. its you". On some situations it didn't feel natural or believable that theyre talking like this - especially wih those voices. The level of emotions were not on a level i know and love from BG2. This was especially for 2000 mindblowing for a game. They did an incredible job and alot of phrases from the npcs are stuck in my mind even until now.


Humor


You even had in BG2 some situations that were a bit funny or some jokes. But i really hope there is not this typical Divinity humor in it. It fits to DOS, but seriously not in BG. The bard was... let's not talk about it. For me unfitting humor is also destroying movies for me, like the Hobbit or the new Star Wars episodes, so please don't do the mistake and implement slapstick humor in a world, that is not build in this like forgotten realms!


Gameplay/Animations

I have to admit i would prefer the pausable realtime like in BG2 (by the way which is also in the core turn based!!), but i guess this was expectable from larian. It was alot of fun in DOS, so lets see. This is a point were iam a bit disappointed, but not hugely negative. I just hope, that not every fight is about getting high ground. That would be too much. I am also not sure what i should think about one group first than the complete other.

The animations also reminded me too much on DOS. For example the jumping animation. Its in general "too much". I really like that youre able to interact so much with the enviroment, but those hulk like jumping is too much - and not even D&D. Youre justifying alot with "we want D&D experience" but for example the jump is not D&D at all.

General thoughts

I guess the similarities between the beginning of the bg3 gameplay demo and the beginning of dos2 are also kind of a negative point. Why there not stranding in the mountains or the forest or whatever. It needs something own in my opinion. Maybe this is also the source of that thinking of "this is too much os2".

Two things that bothered me alot were that feeling of "everything is too much" and those "origins":

About the feeling: the content of the origin stories, the animations... it felt too much over the top, which is fitting for DOS but not BG, not forgotten realms nor D&D.

I also dont like the concept of those origins: I can pick a character and add his background and quests, problems etc. to my game experience. And when i choose to make my own character the story will be just "less"? It was in BG always about the world gives you the story, the past was introduced to you and you can be inside this world whoever you want. As a BG fan i really disagree to the concept of origins. Also on DOS2 not choosing a pre constructed was a disadvantage.

I can understand that Larian wants to deliver something they re good at and know how to do it, but i would love if they would go out of their comfort zone and think deeply what Baldurs Gate is, what it makes special and what it gave so many gamers. I know its pre alpha, but i think its important to address our thoughts as early as possible to help making them the best game possible - and i really hope that Larian is willed to change some things in its core.


Agree with everything.

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+1.

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I am jot sure what you mean but jumping climbing and pushing people off cliffs is very much dnd. you have not played that much table top. I can only hope that acrobatics and strength checks are rolled

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also would like to point out evil is going to odd in this game, Red Dragons not nice poeple. Githyanki not nice people. Mind Flayers are such a threat that most evil will even go shit we got to work with paladins.

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ThreeL Offline OP
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There is a difference between an acrobatic check and a jump out of a marvel movie. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by ThreeL
There is a difference between an acrobatic check and a jump out of a marvel movie. Sorry.


I agree with that. There are some fine points you make in your initial post, such as the start being the absolute same... starting on a boat (tutorial), crashing (no thanks to you), stranded on a coastline... didn't even think about that but it's literally the same start, which is kinda lazy.

As far as the characters are concerned I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I like the origin characters after I've had at least 1 playthrough as a "generic, nondescript dude" to get to know what their story and personalities are. If you however just jump into the character you have no idea who you're supposed to be roleplaying, which makes entering the mindframe of that character and enjoying the RP near impossible. They have mentioned that they will attempt to make the non-origin characters feel much more important than they were in D:OS 2, so I'm hopeful.

As far as I'm concerned the atmosphere is fine (this opinion formed after some discussions on this forum) - regardless of whether it's "dirty" or not, the problem is as soon as you remove high definition from a model to make it more scary (if you can see every single part it's not scary, lets be real here) people will whine about you being lazy and how xy game has better graphics. You could lower the brightness of your monitor and reduce the contrast if you want a darker feeling, but you won't like it coz you won't be able to see the monsters (this is my opinion, I might be wrong but I doubt it).

Humor: What bard?

Gameplay/Animations: I think it's better Larian did TB considering their past. On the topic of animations I partially agree. The 10 meter jump mechanic needs to go (or at least make it a once per long rest ability because of the worm or something - that just ain't normal yo. The rest? I dunno, I honestly don't hate it apart from some select "magical" effects of "special" weapon attacks (which shouldn't be in the game in the first place), but even that is an indication to you (the player) that you're in fact using the ability you think you're using. I think removing them would be nicer to the feel of the game but that's just me.

The dash animation is stupid and should go.




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I just agree, this will never be a real baldurs gate :<

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+1 pretty good post OP

Atmosphere - 100% agree

Characters - The vampire is a vampire spawn,and he seem like a slave to his master more than anything,I've never heard of a vampire spawn before (I think?) so I don't really know how that really works.
And yes,It feels a bit weird that everybody is oh so special (and some are kind of ''lame'' Will made a pact with a demon (Lohse,Jareth?) The mage has a bomb in his chest (now I can't unsee Ironman) and I also don't like the fact that you know their stories,when you encounter them and they make them all mysterious what's the point? You already know...

But my guess is that they're all special because they're all playable,it's like having 8 potentialy playable Baahlspawns (What I don't really know is if every potential companion in the game will be playable and of course by playable I mean selectable at character screen)

Dialogs - Dialogs and gestures need work but I think at least the gestures are on a good path.

Humor - 100% agree

Gameplay/Animations - I'm afraid the high ground is going to backfire,they added advantage on high ground so you explore the new verticality but advantage is a very powerfull thing (rolling 2 d20 instead of one and taking the better result) my guess is that archers are going to be silly overpowerand if you add the fact that you can add elemental damage for free even at lvl 1? I don't know...feedback will tell. (Also just add fire to the arrow,not the bow,you're not an eldritch archer)

Battle animations are a direct copy/paste from DOS2 (and the sounds effects too) I expect those to go,the opposite would be waaay too cheap.
Regarding the jump,dash,push and all those D&D things,they have gone over the top with those ones,D&D is fantasy,sure, but Faerûn has ''physics'' and gravity,there's no reason why a lvl 1 character should be able to make those jumps (it's because of the new verticality ofc) and the effects are also totally unnecesary (For the 3 of them)
Also the push skill is way to strong,is on a bonus action and can push enemies kilometers away (making them prone on some cases on top of it,also gravity again) I would understand more if you could push them further depending on your STR for example. (I just remembered they said you were enhanced by the tadpole but...)
For me voiced spellcasting is a must,for BG and for D&D both,spells have a vocal component for a reason,same goes for the ''silenced'' status.

General thoughts - Maybe they're planning on making crashes and beaches their standard start (a la star wars with the space and space ship) DOS1 start was also on a beach. I don't even care at this point to be honest,there's a lot of high priority things and you're gonna be there like 2 minutes.

''About the feeling: the content of the origin stories, the animations... it felt too much over the top, which is fitting for DOS but not BG, not forgotten realms nor D&D.''
A lot of things are too over the top,D&D is a fantasy setting but again,the world for a peasant is just like the real world,not everything has to be overly fantastic and flashy.

I also thought the same about the origins regarding my own character,I want my charcter to be MY CHARACTER not copy one of the other fellas (but I admit the option is neat specially for replayability purposes) but as you said,Is my character going to be shallow because he's not one of the Larian premade ones? I feel that's a very important point.

From what I've seen in all the interviews Swen has no intention on getting any closer to the BG series,if you see all his interviews for him the BG series are just D&D and he could't care less about the series itself. I'm ok with prioritizing D&D over BG but not to the point of getting rid of everything resembling the series just for what? Some weird pride? Narcisism? (as in everything mine is better I don't thing anything from old BG) but I fear he wants to override anything from BG1 and 2 in the 3rd installment of the saga.
I also don't like one bit what he says in this interview at 3:45,wich is basically we're making BG3 to make more money and fans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGnGOnzlC4s

So I hope I'm wrong but I think any BG oriented change is going to be disregarded. We'll see when it comes to EA.



I leave both youtube options for convinience.

Last edited by Adgaroth; 02/03/20 06:22 AM.
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ThreeL Offline OP
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Especially this is not really D&D. Yes of course the rules and algorithm of the game are based on that now, but the logic and overall feeling is not what D&D.
I played some tabletop rounds and never ever introduced a group like "yeah iam a half elf, but my secret is that iam evil vampire". "oh wow and I have a bomb in my chest"... Also you were never able to set your arrows magical on fire especially on level 1. You were also never able to do the hulk jumps. There's so much that's not D&D even from a gameplay perspective.

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my apologies I just saw that jump animation. That needs to go. Everyone is damn spider man. Jump should be based on characters strength and athletics and you should be able to fail. But there is no way this is going to happen as they have already built the game around everyone being spider man.

Even shove seems too much.

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Originally Posted by ThreeL
Especially this is not really D&D. Yes of course the rules and algorithm of the game are based on that now, but the logic and overall feeling is not what D&D.
I played some tabletop rounds and never ever introduced a group like "yeah iam a half elf, but my secret is that iam evil vampire". "oh wow and I have a bomb in my chest"... Also you were never able to set your arrows magical on fire especially on level 1. You were also never able to do the hulk jumps. There's so much that's not D&D even from a gameplay perspective.


Yeah...I think the issue is that they want to appeal to a new audience and bring players to D&D and crpgs ''today's gamers'' they said their public was mostly teens and early 20's,flashy things and effects to catch their attention I suppose.

Last edited by Adgaroth; 02/03/20 08:31 AM.
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Originally Posted by Adgaroth

Uplifting!
Well at least, we know what to expect from the use of the Baldur's Gate franchise: a simple commercial excuse to attract players.
At least, it has the merit of being assumed

Last edited by Melkyor95; 02/03/20 10:09 AM.
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Originally Posted by wpmaura
my apologies I just saw that jump animation. That needs to go. Everyone is damn spider man. Jump should be based on characters strength and athletics and you should be able to fail. But there is no way this is going to happen as they have already built the game around everyone being spider man.

Even shove seems too much.


Yes, definitely dislike the jump, if everyone can just do it, why have it all. And does it need to be so springy. I do prefer it to the DaoS way of doing - moving gloves of teleportation gets boring quickly. I'd just rather not have it at all tbh. It gets tedious having to leap to explore terrain over and over. In battle it's a but more fun, but it's still so over the top, my fighter, mage, bard and cleric all leaping gloriously up ledges. It's a real stretch for me. And I agree, jump and the shove animation add to the cartoony feel to it. Even the landing animation on the rogue that dropped felt bouncy and jokey.

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Forgotten Realms is not a dirty dark medieval world.

Its a high fantasy sexual fetish world with over the top powerfull characters like drizzt around every corner and ridiuclous retcons every 2 years,
Portals to who knows where and a gorillion of weird freakish races living together.

You wouldnt recognize Dark Low fantasy if it plague coughed in your face.

You just say this stuff because of a false purity spiral in the fantasy genre and trying to browbeat larian with some deranged standard of "seriousness".

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+1 for OP

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Originally Posted by Sordak
Forgotten Realms is not a dirty dark medieval world.

Its a high fantasy sexual fetish world with over the top powerfull characters like drizzt around every corner and ridiuclous retcons every 2 years,
Portals to who knows where and a gorillion of weird freakish races living together.

You wouldnt recognize Dark Low fantasy if it plague coughed in your face.

You just say this stuff because of a false purity spiral in the fantasy genre and trying to browbeat larian with some deranged standard of "seriousness".



Sexual fetish? Are you for real?

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ThreeL Offline OP
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I dont think so.

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Last edited by Adgaroth; 03/03/20 04:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by ThreeL
Especially this is not really D&D. Yes of course the rules and algorithm of the game are based on that now, but the logic and overall feeling is not what D&D.
I played some tabletop rounds and never ever introduced a group like "yeah iam a half elf, but my secret is that iam evil vampire". "oh wow and I have a bomb in my chest"... Also you were never able to set your arrows magical on fire especially on level 1. You were also never able to do the hulk jumps. There's so much that's not D&D even from a gameplay perspective.

I've played almost 40 years of D&D and have been playing video games even longer and I've never seen anything so much resembling tabletop D&D as the BG3 gameplay reveal.
Nobody in that reveal introduced themselves as "yeah iam a half elf, but my secret is that iam evil vampire", you are simply making that up. And the "bomb" is something those mentioning it know of eachother as the have seen eachother on the ship and are aware of what happened, and there is a telepatic link between the characters due to the tadpole in their brain.. Again you are simply twisting the truth to make a point.
The "hulk jumps" clearly also is a side effect of the tadpole in your brain, so again, no issue there.
If you think "There's so much that's not D&D even from a gameplay perspective." you aren't very familiar with D&D, if at all.

Last edited by Redunzgofasta; 03/03/20 07:07 AM.

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