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Seriously, What Did They Expect? #660456
02/03/20 04:27 AM
02/03/20 04:27 AM
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BladeDancer Offline OP
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BladeDancer  Offline OP
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Everybody was cool with Larian making Baldur's Gate 3, but now that the gameplay is revealed, some BG fans have... mixed feelings, to put it mildly. Here in the forums and even on Youtube, I see people complaining about how Baldur's Gate 3 deviated from how the first two Baldur's Gate games operated. Some complained about the shift to turn based combat, and the change to 5th Edition rules (The first two BG games used 2nd Edition D&D rules), and most of all, they complain that Baldur's Gate 3 looks more like a sequel to Divinity: Original Sin 2 or Dragon Age Inquisition. Seriously, what did they expect? This isn't BioWare working on this game, and I prefer that it wasn't BioWare, they already got their hands tied up with Dragon Age and Mass Effect, to name a few BioWare/EA games I love.

I can't ignore the hypocrisy in these complaints. Divinity: Original Sin's gameplay was inspired by Baldur's Gate, and as far as I can tell, no one had any problems with that. In fact, Dragon Age and Divinity: Original Sin were inspired by the Baldur's Gate games. They stood on the shoulders of a great giant and learned from it, and then went off and did their own thing. Now the game that inspired them is coming out with its own sequel, and now some of the fans are complaining that it looks similar to the games it inspired? Come on, now. This craziness needs to stop.

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: BladeDancer] #660458
02/03/20 05:57 AM
02/03/20 05:57 AM
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dmsephiroth Offline
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No crazyness...and sorry to tell you, but there were some players (like me) who did NOT like the dos 1+2 gameplay at all.

I still love the RtWP much much more than the TB combat shit like in dos.

Dos 1+2 were decent games (and i can accept that some people liked it) but they could never reach (for me) baldurs gate 1+2, sorry to shatter your illusions here a bit. Even the music was only decent at dos 1+2. But the music in baldurs gate (esp. part 2) was only EPIC...and no game with this TB combat system will ever beat baldurs gate for me.

And this will no be a baldurs gate game at all, its just dos 3, deal with it.

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: BladeDancer] #660522
02/03/20 11:46 AM
02/03/20 11:46 AM
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Dark_Ansem Offline

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At the risk of sounding despondent, I also was expecting a turn based game and I'm surprised so many were not.

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: dmsephiroth] #660537
02/03/20 12:27 PM
02/03/20 12:27 PM
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BladeDancer Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dmsephiroth
No crazyness...and sorry to tell you, but there were some players (like me) who did NOT like the dos 1+2 gameplay at all.

I still love the RtWP much much more than the TB combat shit like in dos.

Dos 1+2 were decent games (and i can accept that some people liked it) but they could never reach (for me) baldurs gate 1+2, sorry to shatter your illusions here a bit. Even the music was only decent at dos 1+2. But the music in baldurs gate (esp. part 2) was only EPIC...and no game with this TB combat system will ever beat baldurs gate for me.

And this will no be a baldurs gate game at all, its just dos 3, deal with it.


That's your opinion, and I can deal with this, but the question is, can you.

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: Dark_Ansem] #660571
02/03/20 01:58 PM
02/03/20 01:58 PM
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Zelon Offline

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Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
At the risk of sounding despondent, I also was expecting a turn based game and I'm surprised so many were not.


Me too, because why change a working system? Larian has earned good money with turnbased gameplay and I wanted it too, because I had the most fun with it, especially in the combat encounters. And now we get systems that work, more story, more cinematics, set in my favorite city of the Forgotten Realms and get a really cool threat with the mindflayers (and probably some Bhaal-Action too, if I interpret the information in Descent into Avernus correctly), so yeah, I'm happy.

I recently played Baldu'rs Gate 2 on original rules and the combat was never as tactical as in the D:OS-games. And the writing is still fine and the graphics look good, but it isn't as strong as D:OS for me, because I can't interacte as much as in those games. I'm limited... and let's be honest the whole Bhaalspawn-thing was never really good implemented in the mainstory. Neither was the final battle.

Last edited by Zelon; 02/03/20 02:15 PM.
Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: BladeDancer] #660578
02/03/20 02:06 PM
02/03/20 02:06 PM
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Sordak Offline
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The point is that even if you dont LIKE Original Sin 2s gameplay, that doesnt mean its "morally" wrong, or not a proper sequal.

Divinitys gameplay is an evolution of Baldurs Gates gameplay, Sven pretty much said Baldurs Gate was one of his all time favorite video games and an inspiration to do RPGs.

Just because your personal taste is different doesnt mean you can say its too different.

Look at Bioware and Dragon Age inquistion.
Sure its RTWP, also the combat camera is ocmpletley useless so its basically a third person action game with some minor RTWP gameplay added on top.
Would that be better?
Or is no innovation allowed at all?

at the end of the day you dont get to make that call.

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: Zelon] #660610
02/03/20 03:32 PM
02/03/20 03:32 PM
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Dark_Ansem Offline

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Originally Posted by Zelon
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
At the risk of sounding despondent, I also was expecting a turn based game and I'm surprised so many were not.


Me too, because why change a working system? Larian has earned good money with turnbased gameplay and I wanted it too, because I had the most fun with it, especially in the combat encounters. And now we get systems that work, more story, more cinematics, set in my favorite city of the Forgotten Realms and get a really cool threat with the mindflayers (and probably some Bhaal-Action too, if I interpret the information in Descent into Avernus correctly), so yeah, I'm happy.

I recently played Baldu'rs Gate 2 on original rules and the combat was never as tactical as in the D:OS-games. And the writing is still fine and the graphics look good, but it isn't as strong as D:OS for me, because I can't interacte as much as in those games. I'm limited... and let's be honest the whole Bhaalspawn-thing was never really good implemented in the mainstory. Neither was the final battle.


It wasn't as annoying either without its godforsaken surfaces

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: BladeDancer] #660616
02/03/20 03:42 PM
02/03/20 03:42 PM
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Jezeus Offline
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People expected a game that looks and feels like Baldur's Gate, not D:OS. That's why there are complaints. Honestly, Kingmaker is closer to BG than BG3 and that's sad.

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: Jezeus] #660625
02/03/20 04:06 PM
02/03/20 04:06 PM
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Dark_Ansem Offline

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Originally Posted by Jezeus
People expected a game that looks and feels like Baldur's Gate, not D:OS. That's why there are complaints. Honestly, Kingmaker is closer to BG than BG3 and that's sad.


The game isn't even out of pre alpha and you're already dishing out judgements.

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: BladeDancer] #660635
02/03/20 04:14 PM
02/03/20 04:14 PM
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kanisatha Offline
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Originally Posted by BladeDancer
Everybody was cool with Larian making Baldur's Gate 3, but now that the gameplay is revealed, some BG fans have... mixed feelings, to put it mildly. Here in the forums and even on Youtube, I see people complaining about how Baldur's Gate 3 deviated from how the first two Baldur's Gate games operated. Some complained about the shift to turn based combat, and the change to 5th Edition rules (The first two BG games used 2nd Edition D&D rules), and most of all, they complain that Baldur's Gate 3 looks more like a sequel to Divinity: Original Sin 2 or Dragon Age Inquisition. Seriously, what did they expect? This isn't BioWare working on this game, and I prefer that it wasn't BioWare, they already got their hands tied up with Dragon Age and Mass Effect, to name a few BioWare/EA games I love.

I can't ignore the hypocrisy in these complaints. Divinity: Original Sin's gameplay was inspired by Baldur's Gate, and as far as I can tell, no one had any problems with that. In fact, Dragon Age and Divinity: Original Sin were inspired by the Baldur's Gate games. They stood on the shoulders of a great giant and learned from it, and then went off and did their own thing. Now the game that inspired them is coming out with its own sequel, and now some of the fans are complaining that it looks similar to the games it inspired? Come on, now. This craziness needs to stop.

Sorry but you're completely wrong. People absolutely have justification to complain and to be angry. Your whole premise here is that people who loved the original BG games and/or who love cRPGs also loved the D:OS games. Wrong. I for one do not see any relationship between the original BG games and the D:OS games. It is absolutely reasonable to expect that a Baldur's Gate game, a D&D game, would NOT be anything like a D:OS game. Heck even Larian devs themselves, including Swen, have said yes they agree this game should not come across as D:OS3.

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: BladeDancer] #660642
02/03/20 04:22 PM
02/03/20 04:22 PM
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cheese and omelet's country
The Storyteller Offline
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It's think many olds fans of BG's romanticize their cherish games and spit on anything who're not the same.
BG was some sort of precursor of the genre, we're agree on that BUT, that said...

For having playing them again a few month ago ( and actually playing DoS ) , i really think that many peoples dont realise we're in 2020. "Good olds BG" will be just some indie games if they were released now. Nostalgia just blinds the people. We were much less critical at the time and was amazed far more easily.

We can't ask to games devs to publish game with such old and archaic standard by now just to please an old , uncompromising and dying fandom.

And even without that, never forget that opinion of wich is better, "this game or the other" are purely subjective.
I was NEVER a hardcore BG fan, and i found that a lot of old and new games are better in term of storytelling and character's writing. Even before this damn pre-alpha video i was a little disappointed that Divinity : Fallen Heroes being delayed for BG 3. Because, for me, even if some guys here will probably try to say i'have "shitty tastes" or some other value judgment for that, i prefer and by far the Divinity Saga than the BG one. But anyway, i was finally OK to let Larian prove me that i can love an BG game they made ( since i was just "ok" with the old ones and love DOS2 for exemple ) before seeing how BG Fandom react.

Now, i regret that Larian took the agreement.They should have let that IP die.

It's not an "evidence" or a "fact" that Baldur's gate IP is "superior" to Divinity. It depends of you and only you.
Dont forget that "POE" ( 1 and 2 ) , who are more a "baldur's gate"-like ( and made by obsidian, an another great name of RPG ) are less rated than DOS 2 on metacritic ( press AND users ).
So, it's not an "fact" that people prefer "good old BGs"-like game to "DOS"-like game. BG fanbase yes, of course, but they 're not, and by far "all the gamers".

Each studio have their expertise and know better to do one thing or one another.
From my perspective, peoples who wait a pure old "BG games" of larian was in disillusion since the beginning and the first annoucement of the game. For me it was perfectly clear that Larian was going to do a game like theses ones they're good to do.

Even WotC let larian doing BG3 BECAUSE of the amazing work on DOS2.
Larian was selectionned by WotC because DOS2 ...

So , why people who dislike DOS are surprised now? It was higly predictable that this game will be a "cousin" of the game who allowed it to even exist.
Who finally was a little too dreamy?
And if they must blame someone for this game, blame WotC, not Larian. Swen said it in one video, this is WotC who contact them to do a D&D game after the succes of DOS 2, and after a denial when it was larian who asked for it after DOS 1.

Larian just doing what they’re good at and was probably "hired" for by WotC.

We're 20 years later. BG 1 and 2 , it's the past even if it's hard for some fans to admit it.
I really hope that it will be a GM / Toolset , the last thing i'm waiting to know if i purchase the game or not. And if i buy this game it's because it's a larian game, not because it's "BG".

Larian name, for me, in 2020 mean more that "Baldur's gate".

Last edited by The Storyteller; 02/03/20 05:21 PM.
Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: BladeDancer] #660719
02/03/20 10:28 PM
02/03/20 10:28 PM
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Vial Offline
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Quote
For having playing them again a few month ago ( and actually playing DoS ) , i really think that many peoples dont realise we're in 2020. "Good olds BG" will be just some indie games if they were released now. Nostalgia just blinds the people. We were much less critical at the time and was amazed far more easily."


(Almost) Nobody expects Baldur's Gate 3 to be archaic and infinity engine based. Community expected something with original saga vibe, not original saga technology.

Quote
It's not an "evidence" or a "fact" that Baldur's gate IP is "superior" to Divinity. It depends of you and only you.


There's no evidence, but there's some trace. Baldur's Gate 2 sold twice as much as Original Sin 2 during times when in general AAA titles sold less copies (for example GTA 3 14,000,000 vs GTA5 115.000.000 or Morrowind 4,000,000 vs Skyrim 20,000,000).

Quote
Dont forget that "POE" ( 1 and 2 ) , who are more a "baldur's gate"-like ( and made by obsidian, an another great name of RPG ) are less rated than DOS 2 on metacritic ( press AND users )


That's ultimately stupid comparison. So if I can find turn based rpg rated less that Pillars of Eternity then I can tell people prefer real time combat with pause? Gamers rated Original Sin 2 and Pillars of Eternity for all their aspects, not only general model. Also Pillars of Eternity isn't Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 Shadows of Amn is rated higher than Original Sin.

Quote
Larian name, for me, in 2020 mean more that "Baldur's gate".


So you expected Original Sin 3 DnD edition and they provide you Original Sin 3 DnD edition with Baldur's Gate 3 name. It's fine that you're happy with that, but you have to understand, that those who expects evolution of Baldur's Gate saga, not Original Sin saga, might be upset and they are.






Last edited by Vial; 02/03/20 11:46 PM.
Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: Dark_Ansem] #660735
02/03/20 11:44 PM
02/03/20 11:44 PM
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Blade238 Offline
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Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
At the risk of sounding despondent, I also was expecting a turn based game and I'm surprised so many were not.

This is pretty much where I'm at too. Not only does it more accurately represent the D&D gameplay, but it's far easier to balance, much more accessible to players (hell Pokémon uses turn-based gameplay) and it's something that the developers are experienced and comfortable with.

I would have been far more surprised if the opposite had been the case.

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: BladeDancer] #660737
03/03/20 12:15 AM
03/03/20 12:15 AM
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Waltc Offline
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I think it's only proper to point out that this game is far from finished--it's still a couple of months away from EA--which I'm not that interested in because it's just going to be the first chapter--or the first location, etc. At least based on DOS1/2, anyway, with Early Access. Nope--I'll wait!

What I really liked was the opening cut scene--I thought it was *exactly* BG3--the flavor--everything--looked like just what I'd expect. That's what gives me hope for the gameplay, actually. I know it's only a cut scene, of course, but it shows me that Larian really does understand the mood of the BG games really well, even if the very early gameplay looks too much like DOS2 for our tastes. Basically, I think it's just some palette work and texture work that needs to be done to take the flavor of that cut-scene all the way through the game. Everything I saw looked like placeholder stuff to me--and I think Sven actually used "placeholder" himself as a description of the gameplay. I think the game will be great.


I'm never wrong about anything, and so if you see an error in any of my posts you will know immediately that I did not write it...;)
Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: Vial] #660783
03/03/20 09:31 AM
03/03/20 09:31 AM
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Raze Offline

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Originally Posted by Vial
Community expected something with original saga vibe, not original saga technology.

And exactly what that vibe is is subjective and individual.

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: Waltc] #660853
03/03/20 03:36 PM
03/03/20 03:36 PM
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Boeroer Offline
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Originally Posted by Waltc

What I really liked was the opening cut scene--I thought it was *exactly* BG3--the flavor--everything--looked like just what I'd expect.

Right?

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: Raze] #660864
03/03/20 03:49 PM
03/03/20 03:49 PM
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Vial Offline
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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Vial
Community expected something with original saga vibe, not original saga technology.

And exactly what that vibe is is subjective and individual.


Yes, it is, in some way, but:

- Baldur's Gate community reactions are divided about that they liked what they saw or not, but there's consensus in case that the gamplay doesn't have any Baldur's Gate vibe.
- Let me show you an example. Heroes of Might and Magic 3 and Disciples 2. Both are turn based strategies with more or less similar rules (I mean there are differences, but I guess you know my point). Both of them have their 3d sequels (HoMM with number 5, Disciples with number 3). I bet you see the mood differences in those sequels although it's subjective and individual.
- of course those vibes and general mood can be felt individually, but If most of the community agreed that the soundtrack (I mean this part we heard in gameplay) is closer to Divinity that Baldur's Gate, UI is closer to Divinity and general graphic design (even character creator) is closer to Divinity, then maybe we can assume, that Baldur's Gate 3 (at this stage of development) has more Divinity vibe than Baldur's Gate vibe?
- just for example Justin Bell show in Pillars of Eternity how to catch classic infinity engine soundtrack mood without copying it.

Let me ask you a question: what's your feel about what you see and what you know? What in this gameplay looked more Baldur's Gate than Divinity DnD edition except DnD mechanic's of course?

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: dmsephiroth] #660879
03/03/20 04:34 PM
03/03/20 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dmsephiroth
Dos 1+2 were decent games (and i can accept that some people liked it)


Let me correct that for you:

It's my opinion that Dos 1+2 were decent games (and i acknowledge that millions of people loved it)

Re: Seriously, What Did They Expect? [Re: Jezeus] #660887
03/03/20 04:46 PM
03/03/20 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Jezeus
People expected a game that looks and feels like Baldur's Gate, not D:OS.


I have seen similar sentiments expressed a number of times, but I still have no clear idea on what this means. Mood, vibe, feel, aesthetic, atmosphere, etc. What exactly are you talking about?


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