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Originally Posted by Nyanko
Am I the only one who doesn't care about how the UI looks like as long as it's practical for the purpose of the game?


No, you're not the only one.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Nyanko
So the latest iteration of this thread is about saying the UI is not enough BG like and too much DOS like? Am I the only one who doesn't care about how the UI looks like as long as it's practical for the purpose of the game?

When the whole issue of 'this isn't a BG game' arose some months ago, I consistently tried to get some clarity on what the disappointed party meant. After a lot of back and forth, specifics started to emerge, one of which was discontent with the UI. So, at least there are some specifics being mentioned. That being said, I absolutely do agree with you. Moreover, older UIs tended to obscure more of the screen with unnecessary imagery and have less customization options, all while sometimes giving less information. The UIs of today don't look like the UIs of yesteryear for a reason.

On this I agree with you. I also like games to constantly keep updating and modernizing their UI with the player's QoL as the key consideration. As such I am all for newer UIs that improve QoL, or even just simply being a case of doing something better than how it used to be done. But at the same time it cannot be dismissed that for some group of people, UI "consistency" is very important to them for some reason, and they will even insist on holding on to an older UI that is not very functional over a newer one that is more functional just because they hate so much that it looks different. On the Beamdog forum there are a ton of people who love the EE versions of the IE games but with the exception of changes made to the UI. On the UI they are adamant that the old UI should not be changed even in the slightest. I am completely at a loss to understand this mentality, but it does exist among many people.

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UI looks fine to me. Parts of it could be hidden, but I’d rather just have it designed to be readily accessible. There are so many spells and abilities in 5E, especially if you are a multi class caster. I’d rather have all my abilities displayed all together than needing to through and open a bunch of different submenus like POE.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus

I really try to do my best while choosing my words (especially in EN) but yea, in EXEMPLE the user interface of P:K, PoE or Tyranny suits way better to a game named Baldur's Gate to me (even wasteland 2 if you want an exemple with a totally different style).

The UI of BG3 and DoS feels like a mmorpg with many informations everywhere, big skills bar, informations and effects everywhere on the screen... There not only one side of the screen where you have nothing in front of the action.
It's very intrusive while it's way more sober in the old BG and suits better to "writing a story" in a RPg according to me.

I expressed my frustrations with D:OS2 UI, before. My issues with it come with functionality rather then looks - having customisable bars is good, but it takes too much tedious management to keep those bars up to date with skills switching, disappearing, items getting added/removed/used. Having an ability to set up a custom hot bar is good, but having to do that to make game playable is pain.

For the very same reason I hate Pathfinder’s UI with passion. It also requires maintenance to be useful, and with game demanding for you to swap spells before many encounters it just adds to already an extremely tedious game. Sure, Pathfinder has traditional skill selection, but abilities are just piled together and you need to manually expand skill and items tabs which adds more clicks hen needed. On top of that, buttons to expand those tabs and switch between spells levels are so small that one needs a Starcraft level of precision not to misclick - amount of times I had to reload the battle because and key moment I gave the unit order to move by accident is fairly high. Log is also rather lacking, and doesn’t function properly. Don’t start me on need to manually put every damn potion into characters item slots instead of being able to just assign it and have it refill automatically as long as there is available stock.

PoEs UI (especially PoE2) are fantastic. Portraits and skills set in the same area, clear distinction between skill types, easy to access to everything from the get go. Little mouse movement and little clicks required. I don’t recall misclicking anything. PoE2 log has even a neat log filter. And there is optional hotbar - it’s biggest fault is not being advertised well. I think it took me almost a full playthrough before I learned about it.

Outside UI functionality: Is your issue with D:OS2 that it is not Skeuomorphic enough? [squeal of joy. It took me forever to find this term].

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Nyanko
So the latest iteration of this thread is about saying the UI is not enough BG like and too much DOS like? Am I the only one who doesn't care about how the UI looks like as long as it's practical for the purpose of the game?

When the whole issue of 'this isn't a BG game' arose some months ago, I consistently tried to get some clarity on what the disappointed party meant. After a lot of back and forth, specifics started to emerge, one of which was discontent with the UI. So, at least there are some specifics being mentioned. That being said, I absolutely do agree with you. Moreover, older UIs tended to obscure more of the screen with unnecessary imagery and have less customization options, all while sometimes giving less information. The UIs of today don't look like the UIs of yesteryear for a reason.

On this I agree with you. I also like games to constantly keep updating and modernizing their UI with the player's QoL as the key consideration. As such I am all for newer UIs that improve QoL, or even just simply being a case of doing something better than how it used to be done. But at the same time it cannot be dismissed that for some group of people, UI "consistency" is very important to them for some reason, and they will even insist on holding on to an older UI that is not very functional over a newer one that is more functional just because they hate so much that it looks different. On the Beamdog forum there are a ton of people who love the EE versions of the IE games but with the exception of changes made to the UI. On the UI they are adamant that the old UI should not be changed even in the slightest. I am completely at a loss to understand this mentality, but it does exist among many people.

That's fine. I just wouldn't expect newly developed games to hold on to a vintage UI look. The UI tends to be one of the more easily modded elements of a game, though, so a more vintage look is one that is likely obtainable at some point.

In all fairness, though, I looked over the UIs from PoE and PK, and they don't look archaic, or even vintage to me. I think they look fine, though I'm not sure that I care much for the nested window approach instead of having more functions immediately accessible. I see a good UI as a good balance between more functionality/accessibility and less clutter. I don't think these two criteria leave (or should leave) much room for a third, namely, artistic style.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Maximuuus

I really try to do my best while choosing my words (especially in EN) but yea, in EXEMPLE the user interface of P:K, PoE or Tyranny suits way better to a game named Baldur's Gate to me (even wasteland 2 if you want an exemple with a totally different style).

The UI of BG3 and DoS feels like a mmorpg with many informations everywhere, big skills bar, informations and effects everywhere on the screen... There not only one side of the screen where you have nothing in front of the action.
It's very intrusive while it's way more sober in the old BG and suits better to "writing a story" in a RPg according to me.

I expressed my frustrations with D:OS2 UI, before. My issues with it come with functionality rather then looks - having customisable bars is good, but it takes too much tedious management to keep those bars up to date with skills switching, disappearing, items getting added/removed/used. Having an ability to set up a custom hot bar is good, but having to do that to make game playable is pain.

For the very same reason I hate Pathfinder’s UI with passion. It also requires maintenance to be useful, and with game demanding for you to swap spells before many encounters it just adds to already an extremely tedious game. Sure, Pathfinder has traditional skill selection, but abilities are just piled together and you need to manually expand skill and items tabs which adds more clicks hen needed. On top of that, buttons to expand those tabs and switch between spells levels are so small that one needs a Starcraft level of precision not to misclick - amount of times I had to reload the battle because and key moment I gave the unit order to move by accident is fairly high. Log is also rather lacking, and doesn’t function properly. Don’t start me on need to manually put every damn potion into characters item slots instead of being able to just assign it and have it refill automatically as long as there is available stock.

PoEs UI (especially PoE2) are fantastic. Portraits and skills set in the same area, clear distinction between skill types, easy to access to everything from the get go. Little mouse movement and little clicks required. I don’t recall misclicking anything. PoE2 log has even a neat log filter. And there is optional hotbar - it’s biggest fault is not being advertised well. I think it took me almost a full playthrough before I learned about it.

Outside UI functionality: Is your issue with D:OS2 that it is not Skeuomorphic enough? [squeal of joy. It took me forever to find this term].


Haha sorry but the skeuomorph and what I read on the wiki is a little bit too precise for me to understand all the subtleties.

I don't have a problem with that kind of UI BUT it's a very common UI you could find in any games, even in mmorpg. It doesn't translate any personnalities, you don't have any feelings about it. It's very intrusive on the screen if you compare to other games (even to XCom or the new Wasteland 3 to name another modern TB game) but it's functionnal and... that's all.

I think the UI of the old games and of new "old school rpg" aren't only design to be functionnal. UI is a part of what a player see on the screen and it can completely change the visual feeling you have about a game.
BG1/2 are old and outdated but i.e PoE, Wasteland 2 or Xcom wouldn't feel the same with a UI like BG3, whatever their functionality (which is probably one of the most important thing about UI).

As I said I don't have a problem with the actual UI but I'm a part of those that are dissapointed because """this game don't look at all like a BG game""" and I really think that a little bit more poetic/story telling and a more "Forgotten Realms" UI could be a good compromise for everyone.

I'll play the EA whatever is the UI but I really think this could be another "link" (or at least not totally another break with the feelings of the older games)




Last edited by Maximuuus; 09/09/20 07:33 PM.
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Given there's eventually going to be mod support after 1.0 release, would assume technically UI would be something that mods would be made to give options/variety. So if that ends up true, almost assuredly at least one person out there will make a UI skin/framework that looks similar to old school BG games.


“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self control to be understanding and forgiving.”---Dale Carnegie.
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I guess that is fair, but I think the UI has more than enough bits of flare to have a personality and avoid feeling sterile without it being overbearing.

Last edited by Warlocke; 09/09/20 07:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'll play the EA whatever is the UI but I really think this could be another "link" (or at least not totally another break with the feelings of the older games)

I'm glad to hear you'll be playing the EA. I'm guessing 99% of the people who play the EA will be those who are already gushing about the game and at most have only minor issues with the game. So it's the feedback Larian receives from the other 1% that will truly help improve the game.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'll play the EA whatever is the UI but I really think this could be another "link" (or at least not totally another break with the feelings of the older games)

I'm glad to hear you'll be playing the EA. I'm guessing 99% of the people who play the EA will be those who are already gushing about the game and at most have only minor issues with the game. So it's the feedback Larian receives from the other 1% that will truly help improve the game.


Unless what the 1% is asking for is not what the 99% want. Upsetting the 99% for the 1% is not a great way to build a game. If the 99% love it...don't change a thing. This is about money, after all, as is every other game. Even with all that aside...saying that listening to the 1% is how to improve the game is preposterous at best. Just because you are in the minority, or offended or angry or upset or let down, does not make you right.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'll play the EA whatever is the UI but I really think this could be another "link" (or at least not totally another break with the feelings of the older games)

I'm glad to hear you'll be playing the EA. I'm guessing 99% of the people who play the EA will be those who are already gushing about the game and at most have only minor issues with the game. So it's the feedback Larian receives from the other 1% that will truly help improve the game.

That sounds doubly presumptuous. Just because someone is stoked for the game does not mean they their feedback will not help to "truly improve the game," nor does it mean that the other non-gushing, major-issue-seeing people's feedback will. If anything, I can see the latter bunch being heavily comprised of unreasonable malcontents who won't be satisfied unless their outlandish, impracticable, and/or extreme demands are met.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'll play the EA whatever is the UI but I really think this could be another "link" (or at least not totally another break with the feelings of the older games)

I'm glad to hear you'll be playing the EA. I'm guessing 99% of the people who play the EA will be those who are already gushing about the game and at most have only minor issues with the game. So it's the feedback Larian receives from the other 1% that will truly help improve the game.

That sounds doubly presumptuous. Just because someone is stoked for the game does not mean they their feedback will not help to "truly improve the game," nor does it mean that the other non-gushing, major-issue-seeing people's feedback will. If anything, I can see the latter bunch being heavily comprised of unreasonable malcontents who won't be satisfied unless their outlandish, impracticable, and/or extreme demands are met.


I don't get why you'd defend people who are excited and then take the exact same position you defended against on people who are critical. I promise being harshly critical doesn't mean someone is going to demand utter perfection in their own eyes - they'll just push for it because they want the game to succeed.

I know you didn't use absolute language, but this post came off as very disingenuous.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
I can see the latter bunch being heavily comprised of unreasonable malcontents who won't be satisfied unless their outlandish, impracticable, and/or extreme demands are met.

This is what is presumptuous.

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Originally Posted by Annyliese
I know you didn't use absolute language, but this post came off as very disingenuous.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
This is what is presumptuous.


Maybe I’m cynical, but presumptuous or disingenuous? I don’t think so. Most of the posters around here are excited, optimistic and positive. I don’t recall any one of them (at least among regular posters) who think everything is going perfect and have no valuable questions and opinions to add. On other hand, I have seen a good number of pessimistic and disappointed posters whose comments range from genuine questions and interesting feedback to extreme prejudice and petulant dismissals.

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It was just the implication that someone who is critical will be unreasonable. I've been very critical of the game, but I'm not out here trying to crush peoples' excitement or telling everyone 'wokeness' is destroying D&D and its games. I get being upset at some people who are doing that, but they aren't really being critical, they're just here to spout nonsense.

Both sides are just as likely to have unreasonable expectations or make unreasonable claims. I just ask that you not start taking them as representative of the whole group - on either end.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Annyliese
I know you didn't use absolute language, but this post came off as very disingenuous.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
This is what is presumptuous.


Maybe I’m cynical, but presumptuous or disingenuous? I don’t think so. Most of the posters around here are excited, optimistic and positive. I don’t recall any one of them (at least among regular posters) who think everything is going perfect and have no valuable questions and opinions to add. On other hand, I have seen a good number of pessimistic and disappointed posters whose comments range from genuine questions and interesting feedback to extreme prejudice and petulant dismissals.


I think your observations are pretty spot on. Not everyone is interested in seeing this game succeed, some people would rather just impose self-righteous baldur's gate-keeping on their rigid view of what makes a BG game and spend their time being offended at the very thought of Larian taking up the project. Just because people are genuinely excited for the game and have confidence Larian can deliver a quality experience doesn't mean those same individuals are incapable of being critical of the project, despite what some people think. But you're never going to get anywhere with the "extreme prejudice and petulant dismissal" types.

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Originally Posted by Annyliese
It was just the implication that someone who is critical will be unreasonable.

It's not the critical ones I am talking about. It's those with an axe to grind.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
I'm glad to hear you'll be playing the EA. I'm guessing 99% of the people who play the EA will be those who are already gushing about the game and at most have only minor issues with the game. So it's the feedback Larian receives from the other 1% that will truly help improve the game.


Yes, for some reason, EA doesn't tend to get a lot of players who go "I hate everything I've heard about the game, I hate the mechanics of the game, I hate the look of the game, I hate what I've seen of the characters in the game, I hate all the games made by this previous company, I hate that the rock textures remind of of a different game I hate, and the only way I would be happy is if they scrapped everything and redid it to my tastes, but I'm absolutely going to plunk down $60, no refunds for an unfinished game I don't like anything about".

However, as someone who has played the EA/beta versions of Larian's previous two titles, your ridiculous strawman along the lines of "All EA players are brown-nosing fanboys who are guaranteed to love everything and have no complaints" is not even remotely close to what actually happens. EA/beta are full of tons of complaints and suggestions for changes or improvements. Game design is iterative and rarely is everything perfect on the first attempt. That's why testing is done, that's why Larian does these EA releases.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'll play the EA whatever is the UI but I really think this could be another "link" (or at least not totally another break with the feelings of the older games)

I'm glad to hear you'll be playing the EA. I'm guessing 99% of the people who play the EA will be those who are already gushing about the game and at most have only minor issues with the game. So it's the feedback Larian receives from the other 1% that will truly help improve the game.



I'd consider myself to be that 1%, but I don't think I'm unreasonable. I'm coming at it as a BG fan, not a fan of DOS and have a few things that I'm curious and concerned about. I figured that as a very longtime fan of the original games I'd have some critiques but I don't think I'm impossible to please either. The type of player that hates absolutely everything about what they've seen probably won't be that involved.

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Overall, it depends how much you care about the artstyle of the originals.

Larian clearly is not following the the subtle and monochromatic UI that BG had. It is just a bunch of colorful items, lines and bars.

That does not mean that originals' UI could not be improved or be more functional but it certainly could be more cohesive with the series. In that sense, even Bethesda was more cohesive in Fallout series.

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