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Yeah, itemization is BY FAR my greatest gripe with the two DOS and I complained so often about it at any given chance that I wouldn't be surprised if someone thought I was mental at this point.

I don't want random stats, I don't want numbers escalating out of control but more than anything I want CONSISTENCY. If it's just a basic iron sword, it should have the same stats of any other basic iron sword across the entire game.

The fact that those three "cuirasses" in the screenshots have literally different categories (light, medium, heavy) seems to suggest their name/description combo is just some placeholder that fits most armors in the game at this point, though.
Or at least that's my hope.

I hope Larian can at least manage to not fuck up the itemization in a game where the D&D rules already did most of the heavy lifting for them.


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There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend (love the avatar).

At the very least, it is an easy thing to mod in (I did so in my own game, though I never completed it ... including completely gutting the flood of vendor items).

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This is a Dos-like game.
Pretty sure we'll change stuff every 10 minutes...

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Pretty sure we'll change stuff every 10 minutes...


Changing one item of one party member every 10 min is fine with me. Let's say 10 to 30 different items for evey category (swords / rings / armours / etc), Larian can carefully design & name each of them, and it would be enough to give some nice "inventory gameplay" and memorable moments

What I don't want to is having to check / compare / sort every single item from all loots and crates ...

And you are right about light/medium/heavy armour... as you say it could very well be some placeholder to be replaced with some nice 3 standard kinds of armour. You just gave me hope again hehe

Last edited by Gaddy; 03/03/20 08:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
This is a Dos-like game.
Pretty sure we'll change stuff every 10 minutes...

I wonder.
While the developer can STILL implement things poorly to some extent, D&D offers a very limited range to fuck things up too badly.

Let's assume Larian goes for "INSANELY POWERFUL" from D&D standards, we would still be talking about ranging from common items to +5/+6 items AT MOST in the end game.
This would still be leagues apart from DOS 1 and 2 where endgame weapons and pieces of equipment could literally end up being 100x more powerful than the basic ones, numbers-wise.

Baldur's Gate II (especially with Throne of Bhaal) was already insanely generous in terms of artifacts by D&D parameters... And frankly while a bit cheesy lore-wise I would still rate it as one of the best itemization systems in gaming.

That said, if they really want, Larian people could STILL make it annoying with a bit of their usual touch (I'm sorry, love the studio on its strengths but so far in their games they couldn't come up with a decent itemization/loot system to save their lives).
For instance they could still make random items pop up from every crate and drawer randomly every two steps, giving to the player a lot of unnecessary busywork if he wants to keep up with the game's economy.
Because some people don't realize that sometimes "less is more" and think we really need to find random trash at every step and replace it every two minutes to feel "rewarded".

Last edited by Tuco; 03/03/20 08:10 PM.

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... whereas it's so easy to put in those crates some basic stuff (basic standard sword, a few coins, etc.) that players identifies immediately and can take to sold (a little rewarding, no time lost).
And every 10 or 20 crate/loot (and in specific places), player finds some special item:
* either a standard one ("sword +1") that he easily knows if he needs it (rewarding and little time lost)
* or a unique & great one that he will check carefully (very rewarding, time gladly spent on it)

Last edited by Gaddy; 03/03/20 08:44 PM.
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I totally agree with Tuco.

@Gaddy: There is no reason why you should find a magic weapon in every 10th or 20th crate.
When I saw the gameplay video there was another thing I was woriied about.
At the very beginning you walk from the starting point to the meeting with the cleric. On this way he finds many crates and bodies and each of them had several items, including several weapons and armors. At least none of this was a magic artifact, but usually DnD does not only give you very few magic items in the beginning, but also a rather low number of items in general. This flood of items is typical for Larian, but unusual in DnD.

Lets look at the beginning of BG1. You start with a quarterstaff and a few coins. These coins are enough to buy a generic weapon you are profient with, a generic light or medium armor and maybe a simple health potion, thats it. For the first few levels you fight some animals who drop nothing except maybe a pelt, some goblins with a generic axe or bow+arrows and maybe some bandits with a leather armor and a sword. Thats it and thats typical for DnD.

A normal game master would never have 3 intellect devourers as first encounter for fresh lv1 char and a group of 4 bandits (2 melee + archer +mage) as second encounter seems quite challenging. OK, to be fair this is a computer RPG where the player can min max his char as much as they want and the player can reload if they die, so a bit more difficulty is OK.


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I find it interesting and promising, that, unlike so much on these forums, there doesn't seem to be much disagreement on this subject. I know my friends like a lot of loot, but they don't know what's good for them, so they don't count (took me weeks to get them to play DOS2, now it's their "crack").

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Originally Posted by Danielbda
I wouldn't mind random magical items if the unique ones all have fixed locations. I really hope they go wild with the magical items, since 5e severely lacks in this department.

I think there is certainly some ground to be given on the underwhelming loot and stinginess inherent in most 5e adventures. But that doesn't mean they have to "go wild" to address the issue. There should be some very fertile middle-ground between the DOS "super-loot" system and the 5e "we've-balanced-the-game-so-much-we-don't-want-to-break-it-with-a+3-weapon" system. You could, literally, give out 10 times as much loot as a typical 5e adventure path in BG3 and still be a small fraction of what DOS1/2 does.

So, in fairness, that's probably close to my number: Up to 10x the loot of a "normal" 5e Adventure Path. I think the integrity of the system can survive that in a video game adaption of 5e. Power is regulated by their Attunement system, and extra stuff just gets sold and can be converted into consumables and/or the occasional rare vendor loot.

Historically, I've been a very lean, low-magic DM for 30+ years. I could fill many pools with the tears of players lamenting their bare cupboards. But when I started playing 5e, I was astounded by how uninspiring (and anemic) most of the loot was. I fully expect Larian to put some more meat on that bone and I suggest that people who have a problem with that steel themselves for the coming bounty. It's a bit unrealistic to go into this game thinking otherwise. I believe that people should understand that the near constant flood of serotonin hits most gamers are used has to be a developer's concern. wink

Also, I would add that random loot charts in D&D is also a time-honored thing. If we're going to lobby for a legit D&D game, and they're going to carry the BG3 name, then we should be fair to Larian when they pursue core elements of the game. There are 8 pages of Random Magic Loot tables in the 5e DMG's guide. There is no reason they can't be using them (or a version thereof.) That isn't to say that every barrel, box, and basket should roll on those tables though... but the ideas of "randomness" *and* "fixed" magic distribution are foundational in every edition of D&D.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
I know my friends like a lot of loot, but they don't know what's good for them, so they don't count

HA! Spoken like a seasoned DM!

Though (and as much as we might hate it at times) we should expect Larian to have a fair bit of that attitude, too. It's one thing to cast our votes. And quite another to stomp around indignant that it's not going to be just what we want.

This thread, so far, is a breath of fresh air. smile

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Yeah, I definitely do not expect any game to be as stingy with the loot as I would like it (probably because major title has done so and I am cynical at this point). But, like I said earlier in the thread, a loot level option should be easy enough to incorporate.

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Originally Posted by Danielbda
I wouldn't mind random magical items if the unique ones all have fixed locations. I really hope they go wild with the magical items, since 5e severely lacks in this department.


Magical items should be rare and meaningful.

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Originally Posted by Madscientist
Nice finding

They should just stick to the DnD rules, no need for random stuff.
D:OS1+2 are good games but I dislike random equipment and inflating numbers.
Slash makes absolutely no sense for weapons that deal pierce damage.
Plus it makes no sense that a regular attack with a generic weapon causes bleed damage at all.

In one image the cuirass is a light armor, then a medium and then a heavy armor, having different AC, weight and price but the same description. ouch

PLEASE USE THE DnD RULES !!!

PS: We need a facepalm smiley

Originally Posted by Madscientist
Originally Posted by Emrikol
It would be nice (and probably very simple) to have an option to select a low loot level. To use DOS2 as an example, perhaps disable all non Unique loot. Also, perhaps fill the loot tables with more craftable components so that instead of getting no 'reward' for a majority of encounters, you can occasionally get pieces to craft something.


Or you could simply use the DnD 5E rules because

- The game is announced as a game based on DnD 5E
- Creating a new system costs time and money that would better be spend elswhere, such as more areas, quests and characters and most importent more bug testing.
Creating a new system will produce bugs and balance problems and then you will need more time and money to fix it.

I am NOT against inventing new mechanics in games, else we would still be playing Pong all day. But a game that is based on an existing system (DnD 5E) is the wrong place to re invent the wheel.



^this

use the dnd 5 edition rules

Last edited by ChavaiotH; 04/03/20 06:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gmazca
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Slash?


It looks like Larian wants to make each weapon type have a certain flavor. Bows have "Pin Down," swords have "Slash," etc. Just a way to add a bit of extra style.

However, I don't think a rapier should have "slash" considering it's a piercing weapon lol.


Agreed.
Personally, I think D&D has a lot of flaws.
Weapons reach should have more of an effect. A simple thing would be reach difference giving bonuses/maluses.
fist - reach 0
knife/shortsword - reach 1
shortsword/mace/hammer/axe - reach 3
sword - reach 4
longsword/two-handed axe/mace/ short spear - reach 5
zweihander/spear - reach 6
hlberd/pike - reach 7

A guy with a spear would have a big advantage over a guy with a dagger (6-1 = 5 difference in reach, for a 5 THAC0 penalty), but little to no advantage against a guy with a greatsword (6-6 =0, no bonus or penalty)



Then again, I've been out of the loop for a while, I'm not sure what changed. Maybe something like this is already in.

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>unironically defendign 5e RAW
at this point i cant tell if youre serious or not.
5e RAW is extremley barebones and only the biggest of contrarians call it a good system.

What 5E is is an inoffensive middle ground that several people can agree on.
not an amazing system that needs to be ported over to anything 1:1

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Originally Posted by Ellderon
Originally Posted by Gmazca
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Slash?


It looks like Larian wants to make each weapon type have a certain flavor. Bows have "Pin Down," swords have "Slash," etc. Just a way to add a bit of extra style.

However, I don't think a rapier should have "slash" considering it's a piercing weapon lol.


Agreed.
Personally, I think D&D has a lot of flaws.
Weapons reach should have more of an effect. A simple thing would be reach difference giving bonuses/maluses.
fist - reach 0
knife/shortsword - reach 1
shortsword/mace/hammer/axe - reach 3
sword - reach 4
longsword/two-handed axe/mace/ short spear - reach 5
zweihander/spear - reach 6
hlberd/pike - reach 7

A guy with a spear would have a big advantage over a guy with a dagger (6-1 = 5 difference in reach, for a 5 THAC0 penalty), but little to no advantage against a guy with a greatsword (6-6 =0, no bonus or penalty)



Then again, I've been out of the loop for a while, I'm not sure what changed. Maybe something like this is already in.


Good idea in theory, but I do not think it would work because:
- Computer RPG are not realistic combat simulations. I think "Die by Sword" tried to simulate realistic combat but I did not get along with the controls.
- If we consider the game as realistic combat simulator (it is not) I would say a fighter with a pike is good in keeping a fighter with a dagger at distance, but when they are very close the guy with the dagger has the advantage.
- If you are interested in this you might look at some roman gladiator fights, e.g. one guy with armor, shield and short sword vs an unarmored guy with spear and net.


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Originally Posted by Sordak

5e RAW is extremley barebones and only the biggest of contrarians call it a good system.

I call it good at what it wants to be. But yes it is a barebones simple system but that is intentional.

I come from Germany and we got a locally successful RPG that was super complicated (TDE 4.1 edition). Like it had an insanely detailed magic system with countless subsystems that worked completely different like for summoning demons, creating artifacts, each school of magic (elves, witches, druids etc) had own special rules and for combat it tried to model weapon reach advantages from dagger range to pikes or endurance in combat and weapons breaking.
That said I once GMed a combat against a town guard that lasted 14 hours with that system you won't have that problem with D&D.

D&D is neither good for simulating "realistic" medieval combat nor do any of its settings have very well made and described medieval fantasy societies. It is a great system though because of its iconic mechanics & art, richness of its publication history and countless creative options it brings to the table while still being easily approachable for new players.

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On the debate of random vs placed, I would also predominantly prefer placed magical loot, especially for the really cool stuff.

There was a real satisfaction of knowing that if you were insane enough to take on Drizzt Do'Urden in BG1 and WON, you always got some really cool gear and you knew what you were going for. Randomising that would suck (especially as it was an insanely tough fight).

I wouldn't be against randomising magical or non magical loot in chests as long as there were limitations, I .e. if it's a hidden location that contains a ring of +1 Strength, then I don't mind if next time it's an amulet of +1 Dex or something equally of value/power.

I am not a fan in this series of introducing Diablo style loot systems, especially given that combat in a turn based scenario isn't as quick to come by.

I also dislike cheapening shops/vendors to the point of worthlessness. Sure it always happens at some point, but especially at low levels I do not want to be ignoring vendors in the knowledge that my next encounter will likely give me something better than the shop has.

Certain shops and people should have powerful stuff that I want to acquire through wealth, stelath, combat!

So Predominatly placed, a degree of random is ok by me and I am happy for Magical stuff to be rare. Nothing wrong in using a Bastard Sword +1 for several hours, I like my gear to be memorable... You know like, man that Chaim Mail +1 and I got through some tough fights, I will miss it, but hello New Sparkly Magical Armour X.

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Originally Posted by CyberianK
Originally Posted by Sordak

5e RAW is extremley barebones and only the biggest of contrarians call it a good system.

I call it good at what it wants to be. But yes it is a barebones simple system but that is intentional.

I come from Germany and we got a locally successful RPG that was super complicated (TDE 4.1 edition). Like it had an insanely detailed magic system with countless subsystems that worked completely different like for summoning demons, creating artifacts, each school of magic (elves, witches, druids etc) had own special rules and for combat it tried to model weapon reach advantages from dagger range to pikes or endurance in combat and weapons breaking.
That said I once GMed a combat against a town guard that lasted 14 hours with that system you won't have that problem with D&D.

D&D is neither good for simulating "realistic" medieval combat nor do any of its settings have very well made and described medieval fantasy societies. It is a great system though because of its iconic mechanics & art, richness of its publication history and countless creative options it brings to the table while still being easily approachable for new players.


Yes, I have played Realms of Arcadia trilogy, based on DSA (not sure about the version, the games were from 1991, 1993 and 1995).
They used exactly the PnP rules which meant:
- 80% of spells and skills were useless because they could not be implemented in a computer game at that time, some of them would still be hard to implement today.
- Combat took forever because most attacks miss, get parried or they are absorbed by damage reduction.
- First you had to use one spell to see if an item is magic at all and there was another spell that told you the exact magic effect. Both spells could fail because of low skill or bad dice.
- At level up you had to roll dice to improve a stat or skill. This could fail so in the worst case a new level gave you nothing but a few HP. These points had to be split between HP and MP if the char could cast magic.
- The level up screen came directly after combat was over. No way to save and then press the lv up button. If you dislike the lv up results you have to do the fight again.
- In the first part every party member lost one exp every time you saved the game outside of a temple. You gain exp at a very low rate.

summary:
- It is good that DnD 5E rules are rather simple
- It makes sense to change some things if you adapt a PnP game for computer.
- This does not change the fact that I dislike the D:OS item system. Loot should be relatively rare in general and magic loot should be very rare and hand placed.


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Originally Posted by Madscientist
@Gaddy: There is no reason why you should find a magic weapon in every 10th or 20th crate.
You're right indeed.


But we are mixing two different issues, random items stats VS random places to find them.
As much as I would prefer to find item *not* in random crates & monsters drops, I really think it's not that important compared to my original point, about the randomness of the items themselves.

And how it's so underwhelming, boring and tedious to have to manage plenty of similar items with random stats ; transforming the joy of rarely finding a great item to an "Excel game" where you spend all your time comparing stats :-(

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