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This is not about what fans want, this is about the disingenuous way that Larian PR keeps throwing things under the bus because of "ease" or "familiarity".

It is horrible behaviour that proved Larian is just a corporate tool for Wizards now. That is why I am boycotting.

Last edited by kungfukappa; 06/03/20 07:25 PM.
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But I am a fan of the old games and what I have seen looks a lot like what I want. (and I have read other fans of the old games saying the same thing, not only here but on other forums as well).
So there is no "fans want this". There is only "some people want this".

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does the fact that you like what you see invalidate the impressions and opinions of the people who do not?

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Originally Posted by kungfukappa
does the fact that you like what you see invalidate the impressions and opinions of the people who do not?


No, it does not. But it invalidates the argument that fans of BG1&2 is a group that wants something specific.
Using the argument "fans of the old games want this" is disingenious if you are not in fact sure that you are talking about that group as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Nobody_Special
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Wiborg Sturmfels
Larian Studios primarily wants to make their player base happy and don´t care much about the old, hard to please, old-school fans but hope that a few them will also buy their game because of the name.


Old school didn't start in 1998. I'm in the old school group (AD&D 1st and 2nd editions) and I'm all in.


BG1 and BG2 were based on the 2nd edition rules and would technically be old school by your definition.


Fair enough. I wasn't clear. Table top AD&D 1st and 2nd editions.

Originally Posted by Dom86
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Wiborg Sturmfels
Larian Studios primarily wants to make their player base happy and don´t care much about the old, hard to please, old-school fans but hope that a few them will also buy their game because of the name.


Old school didn't start in 1998. I'm in the old school group (AD&D 1st and 2nd editions) and I'm all in.

i'm pretty sure it means old base bg fans, not ad&d. and that started in 1998.


Fair enough.

I guess my issue was with the two-fold classification being implied: the 'newer' fans and the original BG enthusiasts. There is a substantially large group of fans that came before both of them.

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Originally Posted by Waeress
But I am a fan of the old games and what I have seen looks a lot like what I want. (and I have read other fans of the old games saying the same thing, not only here but on other forums as well).
So there is no "fans want this". There is only "some people want this".


I think there is a difference between i am a fan of old games (like me) and old Baldur´s Gate players (me also).

I also like old games like Lemmings, Larry Laffer or even the D&D gold box series. Even if you like these old games you can surely like Baldur´s Gate 3 gameplay because they all have none at all.

If you love the Baldur´s Gate series it´s different because you have to compare Baldurs Gate (1), Baldur´s Gate 2 (original or Enhanced Edition) inkluding the AddOns to an upcoming Part 3. Of course you can still like Baldur´s Gate 3 gameplay or not.

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A lemming playable race would be cool and short-lived at the first cliff. silly

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Originally Posted by Wiborg Sturmfels
Originally Posted by Waeress
But I am a fan of the old games and what I have seen looks a lot like what I want. (and I have read other fans of the old games saying the same thing, not only here but on other forums as well).
So there is no "fans want this". There is only "some people want this".


I think there is a difference between i am a fan of old games (like me) and old Baldur´s Gate players (me also).

I also like old games like Lemmings, Larry Laffer or even the D&D gold box series. Even if you like these old games you can surely like Baldur´s Gate 3 gameplay because they all have none at all.

If you love the Baldur´s Gate series it´s different because you have to compare Baldurs Gate (1), Baldur´s Gate 2 (original or Enhanced Edition) inkluding the AddOns to an upcoming Part 3. Of course you can still like Baldur´s Gate 3 gameplay or not.


When I typed "fan of the old games" I meant that as "fan of BG1&2". I played them a lot when they were released and I still play them. I still like what Larian is doing with BG3 and to me it is improvements.

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Weird. It's like the combat designer does not need to know how BG 1 & 2 played, since BG3 is in a new engine, with a different system (TB instead of RTwP).
What, at all, would the Senior Combat Designer take away from two 20 year old games that would work in this new one?

Story designer: Sure. You want the story to feel like the proper tone for BG.
The artists working on the cities and such? Yeah! Gotta make sure it looks like a BG game..within reason (graphics were allot simpler 20 years ago)

But combat? That is the least-needed thing to take away from BG 1 & 2.

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I am squarely of the mind that Larian is capable of making a good game, but the game I saw was Divinity, and not Baldur's Gate; frankly, you are experiencing cognitive dissonance if you cannot see the differences. That, coupled with the continued release of interviews where questions about original Baldur's Gate games are deflected with responses like "we love BG, but in DOS we do this", or professing to respect a series of games that your senior combat designer has neither played nor likes ...

I say no. All of these things are nails in Larian's coffin. They are a tool for Wizards now. They are pushing the streamlined PnP game and not a computer game, which is what Baldur's Gate was.

I say no. Larian is now on the list with Bethesda, Ubi, EA, and Blizzard of developers whose products I will never touch again for any reason.

I say no. Gaming is the kernal of every one of my life's intellectual, academic, and personal pursuits. I am done watching the potential of this new medium being exploited by corporations for greed.

No more. This is not BG3. This is DOS3 with 5e rules/setting. I hope Larian learns a very valuable (and I mean that in literal monetary sense) lesson about being disingenuous to hardcore gaming fans.

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Originally Posted by Eguzky
Weird. It's like the combat designer does not need to know how BG 1 & 2 played, since BG3 is in a new engine, with a different system (TB instead of RTwP).
What, at all, would the Senior Combat Designer take away from two 20 year old games that would work in this new one?

Story designer: Sure. You want the story to feel like the proper tone for BG.
The artists working on the cities and such? Yeah! Gotta make sure it looks like a BG game..within reason (graphics were allot simpler 20 years ago)

But combat? That is the least-needed thing to take away from BG 1 & 2.

You are the same person on the Steam forum who goes around calling people zealots for not liking this game. You are cancer, you are blocked.

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Originally Posted by Waeress
Ugh, still this "old fans want this....", "fans of Larian games want this..." going on.
There is no evidence of either of those group existing as a group that wants something as a whole.


I don´t think it´s only a "old fans"- or "Larian fans" group, it is more complex.


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Originally Posted by Eguzky
Weird. It's like the combat designer does not need to know how BG 1 & 2 played, since BG3 is in a new engine, with a different system (TB instead of RTwP).
What, at all, would the Senior Combat Designer take away from two 20 year old games that would work in this new one?

Story designer: Sure. You want the story to feel like the proper tone for BG.
The artists working on the cities and such? Yeah! Gotta make sure it looks like a BG game..within reason (graphics were allot simpler 20 years ago)

But combat? That is the least-needed thing to take away from BG 1 & 2.


It doesn´t matter what position you have at this project. If you don´t have a clue what the name and the game "Baldur´s Gate" mean then you are the blind man who speaks of the color. Then you can’t understand what the others are talking about and you don´t have any passion of making a Baldur´s Gate game.
I'm not saying that you can't make a good game without playing BG1/BG2. But we are not talking about Divinity III or any other game. As the name suggests, Baldur's Gate III (PART 3) we're talking about a SUCCESSOR. I find it questionable when someone who has not experienced the magic of Baldur's Gate makes profound decisions (the combat system is one) about a successor.
*Edit: Text improved for clarity

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Originally Posted by Wiborg Sturmfels
Originally Posted by Waeress
Ugh, still this "old fans want this....", "fans of Larian games want this..." going on.
There is no evidence of either of those group existing as a group that wants something as a whole.


I don´t think it´s only a "old fans"- or "Larian fans" group, it is more complex.



Yeah, that was my point. I just wish people would stop trying to give their opinion more weight by insinuating that they are talking for such a large group as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Wiborg Sturmfels
Originally Posted by Waeress
Ugh, still this "old fans want this....", "fans of Larian games want this..." going on.
There is no evidence of either of those group existing as a group that wants something as a whole.


I don´t think it´s only a "old fans"- or "Larian fans" group, it is more complex.



It is, but it look obvious "old fans" whatever they are aren't their priority...
Don't find the interview again where they spoke about "a pleasant experience for their fans, new players, and old fans".

You won't tell me the order they choose is just a coincidence... fans are absolutely not their priorities.


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Originally Posted by Waeress
Originally Posted by Wiborg Sturmfels
Originally Posted by Waeress
Ugh, still this "old fans want this....", "fans of Larian games want this..." going on.
There is no evidence of either of those group existing as a group that wants something as a whole.


I don´t think it´s only a "old fans"- or "Larian fans" group, it is more complex.



Yeah, that was my point. I just wish people would stop trying to give their opinion more weight by insinuating that they are talking for such a large group as a whole.

what you are describing is called a "no true scottsman" fallacy. "No TRUE scottsman would ever drink Irish Whiskey!" that kind of group think.

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Originally Posted by Waeress
Yeah, that was my point. I just wish people would stop trying to give their opinion more weight by insinuating that they are talking for such a large group as a whole.

It happens. It's always fun when I say something and such a person says "exactly!" and then follows it by paraphrasing what I just said to say the opposite.

It's just the way of things though. People can get very tribal, but that doesn't mean everybody is. Or at least not in the way they think.


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Originally Posted by kungfukappa
I am squarely of the mind that Larian is capable of making a good game, but the game I saw was Divinity, and not Baldur's Gate; frankly, you are experiencing cognitive dissonance if you cannot see the differences. That, coupled with the continued release of interviews where questions about original Baldur's Gate games are deflected with responses like "we love BG, but in DOS we do this", or professing to respect a series of games that your senior combat designer has neither played nor likes ...

I say no. All of these things are nails in Larian's coffin. They are a tool for Wizards now. They are pushing the streamlined PnP game and not a computer game, which is what Baldur's Gate was.

I say no. Larian is now on the list with Bethesda, Ubi, EA, and Blizzard of developers whose products I will never touch again for any reason.

I say no. Gaming is the kernal of every one of my life's intellectual, academic, and personal pursuits. I am done watching the potential of this new medium being exploited by corporations for greed.

No more. This is not BG3. This is DOS3 with 5e rules/setting. I hope Larian learns a very valuable (and I mean that in literal monetary sense) lesson about being disingenuous to hardcore gaming fans.


It's a game, on a computer, using mouse & keyboard. The only difference is that it's not real-time anymore. That's literally it. ..And updated graphics & audio.

You're going to put Larian in the same cam as companies that abuse their workers and activly lie to, and abuse, their playerbase?

Also 'hardcore gamers' ohhh. I lvoe when people allude that liking something they hate means you're not 'hardcore' or a 'real fan'.

People need to get over themselves. The game will be fine. It's not a lie, a cash-in, or whatever other BS people are parroting just because they're unhappy it's not a soulless copy of their childhood that would be fun for maybe 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Waeress
Originally Posted by Wiborg Sturmfels
Originally Posted by Waeress
Ugh, still this "old fans want this....", "fans of Larian games want this..." going on.
There is no evidence of either of those group existing as a group that wants something as a whole.


I don´t think it´s only a "old fans"- or "Larian fans" group, it is more complex.



Yeah, that was my point. I just wish people would stop trying to give their opinion more weight by insinuating that they are talking for such a large group as a whole.


Of course it is more fluid. But generally speaking, I don't think it is so inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol

TB isn't "simpler" IMO, it's more thorough.


It's always felt more fake and cheapar to me. Less immersive. Easier to exploit too.

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