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Having surface interaction in the game is not the same thing as going "put barrels in every scene of the game so the whole world explodes!!!!!".

Pretending like it is is a strawman argument. DOS didn't have barrels in every fight either.

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Originally Posted by Exclusif
your mind shuts out any form of dynamic thinking and instead puts forth emotional statements presuming no one knows what their favorite franchise is about


Haha that's awesome. Nostalgia-addled minds claiming others are emotional and "keep failing to make any rational sense." Very amusing.

Originally Posted by Exclusif
I have a crystal clear idea of what I’m talking about,


Sure you do. Reconcile these statements:

Quote
"Well it’s a BG game so ideally it should be 100% BG and 0% DOS."

"I have no desire for another game in the infinity engine."


Why don't you try laying out some specifics? Different combat mechanics? Hand-drawn textures? Camera locked at an angle and a distance with no ability to rotate? What?

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long, specific explanations of what the Baldurs Gate franchise is about


Yeah. The "dark" "aesthetic" or "feel" or "mood" or "atmosphere." Very specific.



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Originally Posted by Emrikol

Originally Posted by Exclusif
It has a strong identity that can be captured, and has nothing to do with age


Like a few who have come before you, I don't think you have any clear idea on what you're talking about.




LOL.
Fun comment from one of those that always refuse to hear and admit differents opinions and feelings^^

Is is necessary to repeat all the discussions one more time because you don't agree with another one ?
You said you don't care about Baldur's Gate, his "spirit" or the name of this new game, so why are you still trying to "proove" the others are wrong ?

Last edited by Maximuuus; 18/03/20 08:51 PM.
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Quote

If you just mean is that it shouldn't look anything like DOS2, that is not only unrealistic (because that would be wasting time, effort and money recreating a lot of resources that are still fairly fresh and ready to reused and improved upon), but also moot (because it will have a resemblance to DOS2).


That’s like Blizzard saying they should just as well be using Warcraft assets for their new Diablo game because it’s available. It’s the same company making the games after all. It makes no sense buddy. Its lazy, unambitious and not worthy of a quality developer. And apparently Larian agrees since they’re already recreating all the graphics to fit the more realistic look. It’s not just higher resolution textures, it’s completely new assets. It was unfortunate that they showed off the area in the game that looks the most like DOS2 in the gameplay reveal. Looking at other released footage, it doesnt look as much like it (graphically), thankfully. Still they could tone down the color saturation a bit.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus

LOL.
Fun comment from one of those that always refuse to hear and admit differents opinions and feelings^^


Selective memory, man. When it's just matter of opinion (loot, 4 vs 6 party, origin characters), I call it for it what it is (ability to choose your preference). When it's a load of vacuous nonsense like "this isn't BG3", I call it for what it is.

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Originally Posted by Exclusif
That’s like Blizzard saying they should just as well be using Warcraft assets for their new Diablo game because it’s available.


It's not like that at all.

Originally Posted by Exclusif
And apparently Larian agrees since they’re already recreating all the graphics to fit the more realistic look. It’s not just higher resolution textures, it’s completely new assets.


So why all the "less like a DOS2 game" stuff if it's completely new? The game looks great so far, but sure looks like it stems from DOS2 to me.

Originally Posted by Exclusif
It was unfortunate that they showed off the area in the game that looks the most like DOS2 in the gameplay reveal. Looking at other released footage, it doesnt look as much like it at all


Which footage are you referring to?

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Maximuuus

LOL.
Fun comment from one of those that always refuse to hear and admit differents opinions and feelings^^


Selective memory, man. When it's just matter of opinion (loot, 4 vs 6 party, origin characters), I call it for it what it is (ability to choose your preference). When it's a load of vacuous nonsense like "this isn't BG3", I call it for what it is.


"It has a strong identity to capture", that was what you were answering wink
Please chek all the threads/titles on the forum before saying "Like a few who have come before you, I don't think you have any clear idea on what you're talking about. ".

Everyone who says "it's not a BG game" know why he saying it... Whatever your opinion about certain specific elements...

You could read this topic again to focus on their arguments => more like BG, less like DoS... This is the thread and you're one of those who deflected it.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 18/03/20 09:22 PM.
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I'll admit that I struggle to understand what a "more BG" game means except in terms of story quality, breadth, depth, variety and execution; and these we can't judge yet.

In terms of the original BG games, I can think of nothing visual I would want to copy at all; the visual ideas were good for their time, and worked well in the game, but they are long since outclassed. Even the games' creators moved on to create a better engine immediately.

In terms of the gameplay we have seen, there isn't much that really irks, perhaps because I have NOT played D:OS2, so I don't really know what it looks like; these mostly look like pretty generic landscape assets with high fantasy buildings. Sounds about right, doesn't it?

I get the point about over-use of environmental interaction, because I did play some of D:OS, and I can see that some of the UI effects are a bit over-enthusiastic, but the only place in the gameplay that really seemed to cause an issue was when selecting "dash" you had to wait several seconds for the cursor to return control to you; too many actions with a similar selection delay could definitely get annoying.


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Originally Posted by etonbears
Even the games' creators moved on to create a better engine immediately.

I hope you are not referring here to NWN... it looked bad in its time, and hold up even worse. Still, that was less of a game, and more of a toolbox.

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Man you people are insane.

Oh no the barrels! no please no more barrels!
none of you played any of the original sin games. OS2 bareley had any barrels.
The only fight i remember having alarge ammount of barrels s the one in the Mines where.... theres barrels of oil because its next to an oil drill.

you just make stuff up to be upset.
You want to remove features and constantly sperg about having a clear vision when you dont have one.

How abotu this, you go back to RPG codex, you formulate a vision that you have, and then you post it.
And it better be crystal clear.
Cause right now all i hear from you people is "I dont like X and Y". But you never postulate why, you never give any alternatives.
The other poster is wrong when he says you only answer with vague terms, you also answer with lies.

You constantly make shit up.
The Diablo example is the next one.
Where do they reuse assets? Theres exactly one (1) animiton that was reused, anyhting else that was reused is UI stuff. All of it.
And those reused assets obviously are not meant to be left in.

Meanwhile a more clear argument is: a blizzard game looks like a blizzard game.
If you look at the llatest diablo, yeah, looks like a Blizzard game to me. The artstyle is overall less cartoony than WoW, but yes they still enjoy their Pauldrons and they sitll enjoy their tiny heads on large bodies and they still enjoy large weapons and they enjoy voodoo aesthetic and all that.

It doesnt have anything to do with recycled assets and eveerything to do with having an artistic style. Simmilar to how Larian has a certain style in which they do enviroments.


>aurora engine
>more of a toolbox
exactly, thats why its better than the infinity engine.
NWN might not blow anyone away with its story, but people still play on those permanent worlds.
so yeah, id say its the better engine.

Last edited by Sordak; 19/03/20 08:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sordak

>aurora engine
>more of a toolbox
exactly, thats why its better than the infinity engine.
NWN might not blow anyone away with its story, but people still play on those permanent worlds.
so yeah, id say its the better engine.

Good for them. But as a base game any IE game beats NWN in terms of playability, presentability and campaign quality. It was a downgrade I struggled to push through. Never dived into use created content, as is my habit.

D:OS2 was overusing environmental effects. Too many encounters played the same. Haven’t seen anything that would suggest BG3 will do the same.

Last edited by Wormerine; 19/03/20 11:51 AM.
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>too many encounters played the same

holy nostalgia goggles.
divinitys wncounters were all the same?
Meanwhile literaly respawning enemies in BG dont?

we just went to bizarro world i guess.

and yeah as i pointed out, NWN isnt a great game (in vanilla, the expacs are cool), but its a great engine

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Maximuuus

LOL.
Fun comment from one of those that always refuse to hear and admit differents opinions and feelings^^


Selective memory, man. When it's just matter of opinion (loot, 4 vs 6 party, origin characters), I call it for it what it is (ability to choose your preference). When it's a load of vacuous nonsense like "this isn't BG3", I call it for what it is.


"It has a strong identity to capture", that was what you were answering wink
Please chek all the threads/titles on the forum before saying "Like a few who have come before you, I don't think you have any clear idea on what you're talking about. ".

Everyone who says "it's not a BG game" know why he saying it... Whatever your opinion about certain specific elements...

You could read this topic again to focus on their arguments => more like BG, less like DoS... This is the thread and you're one of those who deflected it.


You made this post/thread:

http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=662162&page=1

If things like this are what is meant by "more like BG" then I don't think anyone will have a problem. Some of the features on that list are already in (loot), some are out (open world), and a lot of them are being talked about in separate threads (Origins, Day/Night, Romance, etc). The problem with vague terms ("feel") and phrases ("more like BG") is that they can encompass a lot of things, some ridiculous (avoiding beaches and sandy shores?!), some that just won't be in the game (2D environments and/or a strict isometric camera), and some that are feasible, but still unlikey (RTwP).

The best thing to do is stop using vague terms and phrases and not just compile a list as you did in your post, but make distinct threads on a given subject, as has been done with a number of the features on your list. It does absolutely no good to use vague terms and phrases and might even be counterproductive.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
holy nostalgia goggles.
divinitys wncounters were all the same?
Meanwhile literaly respawning enemies in BG dont?

Played through BG1&2 not so long age, alongside PoEs and D:OS2, so have all those games perks and shortcomings pretty fresh in mind. D:OS2 rewards two things: high DPS to take down shields and stun locking enemies. Still, comment was regarding D:OS2 overuse of environmental effects (though it’s issues don’t revolve around it), not comparing it to BGs.

Originally Posted by Sordak
NWN isnt a great game (in vanilla, the expacs are cool), but its a great engine
Aside from clunkiness, and inability of producing distinct locations, then sure. I just don't see how generic, bland blocks are an upgrade from unique, handcrafted locations. I think it is safe to assume, we simply disagree on what we want from a game and an engine.

Last edited by Wormerine; 20/03/20 02:13 AM.
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and baldurs gate doesnt?
Especialy 1.
Any infinity game realy heavily favors crowd controll at early levels.
Entangling people, putting em to sleep. thats your bread and butter.
and at later levels it becomes prebuffing and rocket tag

Also you can make some pretty comfy looking sutff in the NWN engine if you actually put some time into cluttering the place.
sure you saccrifice hand crafted 2d visuals, but you gain the utility of beeing able to create content on the fly.
To me thats more important.

Last edited by Sordak; 20/03/20 07:55 AM.
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Again, I am not comparing the two. When I talk about BG, I mean BG2. It is, overall, a more refined and tighter designed game. I have many issues with BG1&2, especially after playing PoE, which while not perfect, did improve on the formula in couple, important to me aspects.

The difference, which matters to me between BG2 and D:OS2, that if something goes wrong in BG2 I would try the encounter again and try something different. I could retry the same encounter multipletimes, with the same party composition and attempt to solve it in multitude of ways. That's also the memory I have of D:OS1. Not so much with D:OS2. Someone else elegantly summirised my issues with the game far eloquently then I could. And while I appreciate Larian's ability to represent mechanics in visual and intuitive way (IE, Kingmaker and PoEs have a problem of gameplay happening in textbox, rather then on the actual map), I am looking forward to systemic improvements that DnD system should bring... unless it all gets spoiled by Coop-centric design again, but that we will see once the game comes out.

Originally Posted by Sordak
sure you saccrifice hand crafted 2d visuals, but you gain the utility of beeing able to create content on the fly.
To me thats more important.

And to me it isn't, as I buy a game to play a good game, not to make one. Stuff, like NWN1 or Skyrim never engaged me, and all I saw were bad/mediocare games.

In other words, there is a benefit and tradeoff to using both systems, and both can have their place and application. Aurora Engine wasn't straight up better then Infinity Engine, though it did allow for doing things which were impossible previously. IE did better what I cared about, Aurora did better what you cared about. See, we agree, we just like different things.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
Man you people are insane.

Oh no the barrels! no please no more barrels!
none of you played any of the original sin games. OS2 bareley had any barrels.
The only fight i remember having alarge ammount of barrels s the one in the Mines where.... theres barrels of oil because its next to an oil drill.


The general idea of environmental interaction is great when used well ( although shipbuilders everywhere would be alarmed if their pitch barrels behave as they do in BG3 ).
In my case ( and perhaps some others ) it's more about being clear to Larian that there may be such a thing as too much environmental interaction. In the BG3 reveal it looked like it wasn't overused.
If you want an example of what I consider overuse of barrels and puddles, revisit the NE quarter of the Cyseal map in D:OS.

Originally Posted by Sordak

you just make stuff up to be upset.
You want to remove features and constantly sperg about having a clear vision when you dont have one.

How abotu this, you go back to RPG codex, you formulate a vision that you have, and then you post it.
And it better be crystal clear.
Cause right now all i hear from you people is "I dont like X and Y". But you never postulate why, you never give any alternatives.
The other poster is wrong when he says you only answer with vague terms, you also answer with lies.


LOL : Larian Forum collective programming of the BG3 engine :
Code
while( feature !=NULL )
{
  if ( feature == infinity_feature ) {
    demand_add_feature( feature ) ;
  } else if ( feature == larian_feature ) {
    demand_remove_feature ( feature ) ;
  }
  feature = feature->next ;
}
As you say, this isn't particularly helpful. There are a few features of the BG1/2 experience I would prefer to the choices Larian have made, but mostly I want the game to have it's own modern voice.

Originally Posted by Sordak

You constantly make shit up.
The Diablo example is the next one.
Where do they reuse assets? Theres exactly one (1) animiton that was reused, anyhting else that was reused is UI stuff. All of it.
And those reused assets obviously are not meant to be left in.

Meanwhile a more clear argument is: a blizzard game looks like a blizzard game.
If you look at the llatest diablo, yeah, looks like a Blizzard game to me. The artstyle is overall less cartoony than WoW, but yes they still enjoy their Pauldrons and they sitll enjoy their tiny heads on large bodies and they still enjoy large weapons and they enjoy voodoo aesthetic and all that.

It doesnt have anything to do with recycled assets and eveerything to do with having an artistic style. Simmilar to how Larian has a certain style in which they do enviroments.

Reusing assets is fine anyway, if they fit the purpose. You would expect the art style will be somewhat altered for Forgotten Realms, and it already is, in my opinion, if for no other reason than the need to mesh better with the more detailed performance capture being used in BG3.

I don't think BG1/2 even had a single art style; certainly not a particularly inventive one. Much of the countryside was aiming for typical European feel, because that is the real-world equivalent of that part of Toril. Likewise, buildings often looked like medieval European buildings; castles looked like castles, dungeons looked like dungeons, and Bodhi's vampire lair looked suitably bloody and gruesome.

Some of it was pastiche, some of it was parody; certainly not uniformly dark, or indeed uniformly anything else. For example, Athkatla market was bright, eclectic, exaggerated and slightly silly, while some of the sandy beaches ( a complaint someone made about Larian style ) were so bright they were almost white.

As with the infinity engine, I think there may be a case of nostalgia spectacles with the artwork. It's perfectly valid to point out individual examples of something in BG3 that could be changed; as long as a reason why is given, and an alternative is suggested, then it may result in a better product for everyone.


Originally Posted by Sordak

>aurora engine
>more of a toolbox
exactly, thats why its better than the infinity engine.
NWN might not blow anyone away with its story, but people still play on those permanent worlds.
so yeah, id say its the better engine.

Quite. I'd take the BG story over the NWN story any day, but there isn't a single feature of the Infinity engine that is better than the Aurora engine.


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i dont realy see the argument in the video you linked.
as in i dont see how you couldnt possibly approach the same encounter in multiple ways with the same party compositon.
i dargue that in OS2 due to the fact that XP is fixed, you actually have to do it that way.

most complaints seem to be about the armor system, which fine, i personally have no issue with since i dont like RNG, but thats a matter of taste. I fail to see how it relates to what you said

etonbears:
the problem with Original Sin 2s enviromental effects is actually very easy to zero in on, but most people dont make the connection.
The main problem with surfaces in OS2 is the one prevelent enemy type: voidwoken.
All voidwoken bleed corrupted blood, this means that any enviromental effects are probably going to be 1. cursed and 2. thus lasting for the entire fight.
In os1 this was far less of a problem, besides the obvious fire spam whch, lets be honest, makes sense. If everything is on fire, that shtis bad.
but putting out fires is easy.

putting out necrofire? less easy.

thats the crux of the problem in OS2

on artstyle:
I think its unfair to say BG1 and 2 didnt have an artstyle. Artstyle is distinct from subject matter. hence why i said Larians artstyle.
Larian might be depicting the sword coast, so the buildings will look relativeley high medieval european and so will the enviroments (i for one would of course argument that ti was more high fatnasy britain, since central europe tends to actually look a bit more rugged, but maybe im just used to the alps)

However, the way these things are depicted is through the artstyle of Larian, it focuses on aspects of that time period and of the lore that larian favors.
Ive brought the example before, but Larian loves Statues.
Their games are full of them, and characters will ofthen evoke Greek statues (maxos and the OCs from OS1 come to mind)
So when they do a Forgotten Realms temple, theyll include a large statue of a Godess.

They also have a certain... height to which they have buildings scale. Its subtle details but you notice them beeing there

Last edited by Sordak; 20/03/20 03:42 PM.
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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Again, I am not comparing the two. When I talk about BG, I mean BG2. It is, overall, a more refined and tighter designed game. I have many issues with BG1&2, especially after playing PoE, which while not perfect, did improve on the formula in couple, important to me aspects.

The difference, which matters to me between BG2 and D:OS2, that if something goes wrong in BG2 I would try the encounter again and try something different. I could retry the same encounter multipletimes, with the same party composition and attempt to solve it in multitude of ways. That's also the memory I have of D:OS1. Not so much with D:OS2.


Then your memory is completely and totally wrong.

Reloading and trying something different and attempting to solve an encounter in a multitude of ways is how I played the ENTIRETY of DOS 2. It's just flat-out wrong to claim you can't do that in DOS 2, just flat out wrong. In fact, I'm going to call that a deliberate lie, and that damages your credibility.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
The difference, which matters to me between BG2 and D:OS2, that if something goes wrong in BG2 I would try the encounter again and try something different. I could retry the same encounter multipletimes, with the same party composition and attempt to solve it in multitude of ways. That's also the memory I have of D:OS1. Not so much with D:OS2.


Yeah, not my experience either. I do tend to play it with one toon on Tactician, though, or currently with my friends on classic. So maybe I would feel differently with a full party all under my control (I stopped in the middle of Act 3 with a full party on Tactician because it was getting too easy ... that was not Definitive Edition, though).

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