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Re: Ammunition management [Re: Stabbey] #664829
23/03/20 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Survival mechanics are notoriously difficult to balance in games not based entirely around them. They also don't really offer much interest. Press a button to search a container for some ingredients. Press a button to craft the ingredients into a thing you need. Press a button to use the thing you need.

If fulfilling their requirements is so easy as to be trivial through casual play, then they don't really add anything to the game except pointless busywork and could be discarded without consequence. If fulfilling their requirements is not trivial, then it's generally a distraction from other, more fun or interesting things that you would rather be doing.

I remember doing this in Oblivion; I found a mod that did pretty much what I wanted in that it gave a little pacing and immersion which is what I was looking for at the time, but was superseded by something else that was much too intrusive, and had a bunch of alternatives that were just way too complicated: nice designs in theory but in practice didn't work for me.

But I'm left thinking that the key point isn't "too intrusive" or "way too complicated" but rather "pretty much what I wanted" and "didn't work for me": it's such a subjective matter and my own preferences can change like the weather. As much as I like the idea of something that is "just right" it's practically impossible to attain in a manner that would suit everyone. And for that reason I'm left thinking that anything that is too niche and contentious is probably best avoided and left to modders to cater to; and that the facilities to enable that are provided.


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Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664847
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Kingdom Come : Deliverance.
2M copy sold.

Food, drink, washing, arrows and inventory management, weapons durability,...
Niche you said ?

Obviously not the same game but these mecanics can be part of a sucessfull game if it's well designed and if it serve the purpose.

Having """'survival"""" mecanics is good for ambiance and feelings given by the game (feelings of a dangerous World in which you have to survive and be prepared).

Many """ because we're just initialy talking about ammo management, not food, drink....

Everything is not black or white. Sometimes grey is a good solution but I don't really think Larian care/can do immersive games. Which is bad for Baldur's Gate 3.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/03/20 11:16 PM.
Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664848
23/03/20 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Kingdom Come : Deliverance.
2M copy sold.

Food, drink, washing, arrows and inventory management, weapons durability,...
Niche you said ?

Obviously not the same game but these mecanics can be part of a sucessfull game if it's well designed and if it serve the purpose.

Having """'survival"""" mecanics is good for ambiance and feelings given by the game (feelings of a dangerous World in which you have to survive and be prepared).

Many """ because we're just initialy talking about ammo management, not food, drink....

Everything is not black or white. Sometimes grey is a good solution but I don't really think Larian care/can do immersive games. Which is bad for Baldur's Gate 3.

Every mechanic has its uses and its fans. The survival genre is alive and kicking, too. No one is saying these mechanics are not liked.

But a dev has to decide 'Will this make my game more fun? Or will it detract from the overall experience?'
While hunger and durability and thirst are expected in a Survival game and are, in fact, your main enemy in many ways, people don't expect that from a D&D game. Or a tactical game. Or a turn-based game.
I think it would turn off many players who are going in expecting to play Baldur's Gate 3, not a Survival game.

That's just my take on it, of course.

Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664849
24/03/20 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Kingdom Come : Deliverance.
2M copy sold.

Food, drink, washing, arrows and inventory management, weapons durability,...
Niche you said ?

Obviously not the same game but these mecanics can be part of a sucessfull game if it's well designed and if it serve the purpose.

Having """'survival"""" mecanics is good for ambiance and feelings given by the game (feelings of a dangerous World in which you have to survive and be prepared).

Many """ because we're just initialy talking about ammo management, not food, drink....

Everything is not black or white. Sometimes grey is a good solution but I don't really think Larian care/can do immersive games. Which is bad for Baldur's Gate 3.


KCD was fun. I enjoyed it. I also added in mods in Skyrim that required food and such. So, I do enjoy it in certain circumstances, but I don't think I would for a game like this.

Re: Ammunition management [Re: Emrikol] #664852
24/03/20 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Emrikol
KCD was fun. I enjoyed it. I also added in mods in Skyrim that required food and such. So, I do enjoy it in certain circumstances, but I don't think I would for a game like this.

I think that is an important point. Without wanting this to devolve into a DOS2 or TB debate, one thing that became apparent in DOS2's development is that e.g. weapon and armour degradation were not popular and were removed from the game as a result. I'm not sure I'm a fan of it in any game; which is perhaps odd for someone who likes a degree of the survival bit, but I just found repairing stuff to be unnecessary makework. On the other hand, one thing I wouldn't object to would be that looted armour and weapons need to be taken to a weaponsmith or tailor before you can use them so they're in a good state of repair, they fit and you don't later find your shiny new armour has things living in it!


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Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664853
24/03/20 07:13 AM
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KDC is NOT a survival game... But it's one of the most immersive game I played for the last years. It's obviously not because you can eat or drink.
It's not about survival, it's about mecanics that increase immersion.

But anyway you're probably right. It's not important in a game "like this", because DoS is not immersive at all so BG3 don't have to be...
That's what Larian can do and what DoS's fans want.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/03/20 09:40 AM.
Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664861
24/03/20 10:02 AM
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The difference with KCD is that you are one person. in BG3, you control a party.
Would that make things more of a chore or less? More immersive or less?

Technically, all of that activity can be contained within the camping/resting option. How can you make it interesting or immersive?

In KDC, you sneak in the forest and hunt a rabbit, cook it and eat it.
Could that work in BG3? Would you even need to?

Add to it that money is not lacking in D&D and you can stock up on rations easily...
Dunno

Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664865
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Earlier in the thread, there was talk about how unlimited arrows equates to unlimited spells. While I find that to be a bit misleading, I also see that limited ammunition puts more strength to Cantrips as they are unlimited spells that do reasonable damage (not quite as much as an arrow due to no modifier added to damage*) and have secondary effects most of the time.
*Evocation wizards (10 modifying all Evocation spells) and warlocks (2+ modifying Eldritch Blast) do add modifiers to damage.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
It's not about survival, it's about mecanics that increase immersion.
KDC is NOT a survival game... But it's one of the most immersive game I played for the last years.

But anyway you're right. It's not important in a game "like this", because this game will be more a DoS-Like than a BG-Like. That's what Larian can do and what their fans want.


Having entire inventories of characters filled with arrows because they couldn't hold any more weight, but had slots while those with who could hold weight lacked slots didn't feel immersive to me. I didn't think the ammunition would run out, but the adjustment of who was holding it (the casters who had no strength) vs the people using it was just tiresome after a while. The management here was already altered as arrows were weightless in BG1/2 even though in 2e they weighted 1lb/10 arrows (it has since been changed to 1lb/20 arrows). I would guess that if you add arrow management, you are doing so by adding their weight.

This would be mitigated by removal of the slot limitations of the first games as well as the change in carry capacity between editions. In 5e, your maximum capacity is 15x Strength, so a 20 strength character can only carry 300lbs (and only move at full speed with 100lbs if you are using scaling encumbrance categories).

I wouldn't be sad to see it gone because it can be tedious to manage small things (like the weight of your money at 1lb / 50 coins), but I don't think it's detrimental if it doesn't require micromanaging inventory slots as it previously did.

Last edited by Xvim; 24/03/20 10:46 AM.
Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664867
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I think specifically in D&D there are spells that made the survival option pointless, like create water, create food and water, create tiny hut, summon grove, phantom ammo, mending, etc

Why do you want to seek shelter, spend hours in a smity or chase a rabbit when you can summon a palace and a feast with some spells?


There are even some "survivalist" backgrounds that gave you a feature that allows you to feed your entire party every day for free if you are not in a city. I think that option would simply force you to take some backgrounds, classes or spells in your party that maybe you do not usually take.


Last edited by _Vic_; 24/03/20 10:37 AM.
Re: Ammunition management [Re: Ellderon] #664869
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Originally Posted by Ellderon
The difference with KCD is that you are one person. in BG3, you control a party.
Would that make things more of a chore or less? More immersive or less?

Technically, all of that activity can be contained within the camping/resting option. How can you make it interesting or immersive?

In KDC, you sneak in the forest and hunt a rabbit, cook it and eat it.
Could that work in BG3? Would you even need to?

Add to it that money is not lacking in D&D and you can stock up on rations easily...
Dunno


As you said, in KDC you're alone.
In BG1&2, in PoE, in P:K, you also control a party and they are way less arcady and way more immersive games than DoS 1&2.

Immersion is a feelings that is not exclusive to a camera view (TPS, FPS, isometric) a combat system (RT, RTwP, TB,...), or a "genre" (RPG, Survival, Action...)
Nearly every kind of game can be immersive but it's of course an addition, a hole of well designed elements that served the purpose of the game and its immersion.

This topics talk about one but it's still not a hole and other elements have to be designed in consequences for this one not to be boring.
I totally agree all mecanics we're talking here would be boring if players have to walk for 10 minutes every hours.

This is not what happened in the game I gave as exemples, and this is obviously not what I imagine.

Originally Posted by Xvim


Having entire inventories of characters filled with arrows because they couldn't hold any more weight, but had slots while those with who could hold weight lacked slots didn't feel immersive to me. I didn't think the ammunition would run out, but the adjustment of who was holding it (the casters who had no strength) vs the people using it was just tiresome after a while. The management here was already altered as arrows were weightless in BG1/2 even though in 2e they weighted 1lb/10 arrows (it has since been changed to 1lb/20 arrows). I would guess that if you add arrow management, you are doing so by adding their weight.

This would be mitigated by removal of the slot limitations of the first games as well as the change in carry capacity between editions. In 5e, your maximum capacity is 15x Strength, so a 20 strength character can only carry 300lbs (and only move at full speed with 100lbs if you are using scaling encumbrance categories).

I wouldn't be sad to see it gone because it can be tedious to manage small things (like the weight of your money at 1lb / 50 coins), but I don't think it's detrimental if it doesn't require micromanaging inventory slots as it previously did.


I totally agree it was sometimes boring but absolutely not because of the weight.
It was because of the place it tooks in the inventory (that inconvenient was also reduced when stack had increased).
Add an "ammo belt" for ranged units in BG1&2 and there's no more inventory management problem.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/03/20 11:07 AM.
Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664872
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I totally agree it was sometimes boring but absolutely not because of the weight. It was because of the place it tooks in the inventory (that inconvenient was also reduced when stack had increased).
Add an "ammo belt" for ranged units in BG1&2 and there's no more inventory management problem.


Right. The question is, in what form would you like to see the arrow management done? By simply needing arrows and making sure you have them stocked up or by adding weight to those arrows (as inventories do not seem to have slot limitations)? Or another way?

Re: Ammunition management [Re: _Vic_] #664873
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
I think specifically in D&D there are spells that made the survival option pointless, like create water, create food and water, create tiny hut, summon grove, phantom ammo, mending, etc

Why do you want to seek shelter, spend hours in a smity or chase a rabbit when you can summon a palace and a feast with some spells?


There are even some "survivalist" backgrounds that gave you a feature that allows you to feed your entire party every day for free if you are not in a city. I think that option would simply force you to take some backgrounds, classes or spells in your party that maybe you do not usually take.



Good point.
Adding survival elements would not increase immersion.
Instead players would feel that they are forced to select certain spells or backgrounds.

Do you still remember the WoW argument from earlier.
Players will do all kinds of annoying stuff to get even the smallest mechanical advantage, even if it lowers their fun.
Its better to remove such stuff so players do not feel forced to play in a certain way.
I still agree with this statement from the WoW dev.


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Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664874
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Originally Posted by Xvim
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I totally agree it was sometimes boring but absolutely not because of the weight. It was because of the place it tooks in the inventory (that inconvenient was also reduced when stack had increased).
Add an "ammo belt" for ranged units in BG1&2 and there's no more inventory management problem.


Right. The question is, in what form would you like to see the arrow management done? By simply needing arrows and making sure you have them stocked up or by adding weight to those arrows (as inventories do not seem to have slot limitations)? Or another way?


I'm not Larian and i don't really have enough informations about the game to have a precise answer and to imagine something very well integrated.

- Don't know how inventory management work
- Don't know about the level design, the dungeons,...
- Don't know about the world, if we'll be able to go to town/merchants easily, if we'll have to go after quests...
- Don't know about "camp follower"
-...

But I think both weight and "number/slots" management should be in a way or another.

In BG1&2 every characters have a quiver which means 18 slots for ammo outside "classic" inventory.
With stacks of 40 arrows it's 720 arrows... 480 with only 4 characters.
Add a sort of arrow belt only for specific ranged classes and I really think it's not a handicap but just something you have sometimes to think about.

The benefit is that it delete the feelings of an arcady and totally unrealistic game (on that specific point).

Of course there is another management parameters, because arrows aren't the only ranged ammo. But as I said I dont know enough about the game to enter the details.


Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/03/20 01:18 PM.
Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664881
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Xvim
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I totally agree it was sometimes boring but absolutely not because of the weight. It was because of the place it tooks in the inventory (that inconvenient was also reduced when stack had increased).
Add an "ammo belt" for ranged units in BG1&2 and there's no more inventory management problem.


Right. The question is, in what form would you like to see the arrow management done? By simply needing arrows and making sure you have them stocked up or by adding weight to those arrows (as inventories do not seem to have slot limitations)? Or another way?


I'm not Larian and i don't really have enough informations about the game to have a precise answer and to imagine something very well integrated.

- Don't know how inventory management work
- Don't know about the level design, the dungeons,...
- Don't know about the world, if we'll be able to go to town/merchants easily, if we'll have to after quests...

But I think both weight and "number/slots" management should be in.

In BG1&2 every characters have a quiver which means 18 slots for ammo. With stacks of 40 arrows it's 720 arrows... 480 with only 4 characters.
Add a sort of arrow belt only for specific ranged classes and I really think it's not a handicap but just something you have sometimes to think about to avoid being in an arcady totally unrealistic game (on that point).

+ Someone talked before about a magic bow that have unlimited arrows => possible to have such a great loot that's however not OP

Of course there is another management parameters, because arrows aren't the only ranged ammo. But as I said I dont know enough about the game to enter the details.


While I realize that we're going off of far more limited information that Larian, being as you raised a point, I merely wanted to continue a line of discussion along that point.
I don't like the "number of slots" management personally. Weight management I would be fine with. Slot management leads to either inventory Tetris (NWN / Diablo) or the ridiculousness of an Ankheg Carapace using the same space as 1 potion (BG). It also means that it is more likely that you are given a Bag of Holding earlier (or potion bag, or scroll case, etc) and that just eliminates both styles of management.

Again, I think that it sounds more reasonable in previous editions due to the way that carry capacity scaled off of Strength.
Example from BG: 11 Str = 70 lbs, 15 Str = 120 lbs, 19 Str = 500 lbs, 20 Str =600 lbs
Example from NWN: 11 Str = 115 lbs, 15 Str = 200 lbs, 19 Str = 350 lbs, 20 Str = 400 lbs (These are maximum carry capacities in 3.X, but became the base value in NWN)
Example from 5e: 11 Str = 55 lbs, 15 Str = 75 lbs, 19 Str = 95 lbs, 20 Str = 100 lbs (These are the base values for 5e, the maximum values are 3x. From the Gameplay reveal, you can see that Astarion has 12 Strength and a 60 carry capacity and that lines up with the base 5e loads).

Edit: Timestamp of the inventory. Str is on the 3rd panel, weight below the 2nd. https://youtu.be/XJhawYZwvPI?t=3028

Last edited by Xvim; 24/03/20 01:44 PM.
Re: Ammunition management [Re: Xvim] #664887
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Originally Posted by Xvim

While I realize that we're going off of far more limited information that Larian, being as you raised a point, I merely wanted to continue a line of discussion along that point.
I don't like the "number of slots" management personally. Weight management I would be fine with. Slot management leads to either inventory Tetris (NWN / Diablo) or the ridiculousness of an Ankheg Carapace using the same space as 1 potion (BG). It also means that it is more likely that you are given a Bag of Holding earlier (or potion bag, or scroll case, etc) and that just eliminates both styles of management.

Again, I think that it sounds more reasonable in previous editions due to the way that carry capacity scaled off of Strength.
Example from BG: 11 Str = 70 lbs, 15 Str = 120 lbs, 19 Str = 500 lbs, 20 Str =600 lbs
Example from NWN: 11 Str = 115 lbs, 15 Str = 200 lbs, 19 Str = 350 lbs, 20 Str = 400 lbs (These are maximum carry capacities in 3.X, but became the base value in NWN)
Example from 5e: 11 Str = 55 lbs, 15 Str = 75 lbs, 19 Str = 95 lbs, 20 Str = 100 lbs (These are the base values for 5e, the maximum values are 3x. From the Gameplay reveal, you can see that Astarion has 12 Strength and a 60 carry capacity and that lines up with the base 5e loads).

Edit: Timestamp of the inventory. Str is on the 3rd panel, weight below the 2nd. https://youtu.be/XJhawYZwvPI?t=3028


You're right about slots management. The Tetris thing is really boring and the Ankheg carapace is not so realistic (It's like that in many games, DoS included).

I like the way they did it in BG1&2 because it is, according to me a good mix between weight and inventory slots management. A good mix between fun and "realistic"/immersive feelings. A good mix between video games and what is humanly possible to carry.
Don't forget that all characters have a bag of 16 slots, but also weapons slots (in their belt or their back), ammo slots, their bodies as slots,...
Everything looks more "true".

Even if inventory management is sometimes very slow/heavy in BG, I never had to choose between an item or another because I don't have enough slots.
Of course I'm not saying it has to be the exact same. Everything can be improved. It's all about balance and what you want the game looks like.

I talked about KDC earlier and it's only about weight. This is good too but I really don't like those inventory in which you have hundreds of (useless) items on your bags.
In games in which you have unlimited slots players pick nearly everything they can because "it could be usefull" and the results is exactly the same :
=> You have too many things and you have to sort/throw/sell/put in a "bank" or something/...

The only difference is that you CAN forget it, what I'm nearly sure no one does because players like to have "proper" inventory.

Is that really better ? I don't think so...

Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/03/20 02:29 PM.
Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664889
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Weapon and armor degrading exist for reasons.

They are good in open world and especialy open ended game slik eMMORPGs or games like the new zelda where everyone ahted it.
its not a popular mechanic in those games either, but it works asa money and ressource sink.

Ideally it creates a world wehre rare things remain a rare commodity.

in a single player RPG with a finite story, these elements are mostly a nuisance

Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664890
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus

I talked about KDC earlier and it's only about weight. This is good too but I really don't like those inventory in which you have hundreds of (useless) items on your bags.
In games in which you have unlimited slots players pick nearly everything they can because "it could be usefull" and the inventory management is on the exact opposite :
=> You have too many things and you have to sort/throw/sell/put in a "bank" or something/...

Is that really better ? I don't think so... And even if inventory management is sometimes very slow/heavy in BG, I never had to choose between an item or another because I don't have enough slots.

I agree, having way too much crap that you have to sift through isn't good either. I think that the 5e weight limitations should be enough to limit how much useless crap you pick up.

Even if you end up with a 20 strength Fighter, your weapons and armor will eat up most of that Light Encumbrance. Plate is 65 lbs, a shield is 6 lbs, a longsword is 3 lbs, a longbow is 2 lbs = 76 / 100 lbs (+1/20 arrows if that's added).
That said, we'll have to see in the end. I also wonder how Bags of Holding will be dealt with. I think the closest game to do what they are supposed to is Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

Re: Ammunition management [Re: Xvim] #664892
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Originally Posted by Xvim
Originally Posted by Maximuuus

I talked about KDC earlier and it's only about weight. This is good too but I really don't like those inventory in which you have hundreds of (useless) items on your bags.
In games in which you have unlimited slots players pick nearly everything they can because "it could be usefull" and the inventory management is on the exact opposite :
=> You have too many things and you have to sort/throw/sell/put in a "bank" or something/...

Is that really better ? I don't think so... And even if inventory management is sometimes very slow/heavy in BG, I never had to choose between an item or another because I don't have enough slots.

I agree, having way too much crap that you have to sift through isn't good either. I think that the 5e weight limitations should be enough to limit how much useless crap you pick up.

Even if you end up with a 20 strength Fighter, your weapons and armor will eat up most of that Light Encumbrance. Plate is 65 lbs, a shield is 6 lbs, a longsword is 3 lbs, a longbow is 2 lbs = 76 / 100 lbs (+1/20 arrows if that's added).
That said, we'll have to see in the end. I also wonder how Bags of Holding will be dealt with. I think the closest game to do what they are supposed to is Pathfinder: Kingmaker.


I don't really think they're going to respect the rules on that point because I imagine many characters won't be able to carry anything more than their equipement.
This would also be boring in a video game where you sometimes have to carry things during a long time.

Pathfinder : Kingmaker is another way of inventory management : party inventory. Why not, this is another idea.

As you said we'll have to wait and see about ithat.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/03/20 02:45 PM.
Re: Ammunition management [Re: Maximuuus] #664893
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Joined: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus

I don't really think they're going to respect the rules on that point because I imagine many characters won't be able to carry anything more than their equipement.
This would also be boring in a video game where you sometimes have to carry things during a long time.

Pathfinder : Kingmaker is another way of inventory management : party inventory.
Why not, this is another idea.

As you said we'll have to wait and see about that.


In 5e, light encumbrance is move at full speed with up to 5x Strength; medium is at -10 speed with up to 10x Strength; heavy is -20 speed, and disadvantage on Attacks/Saves/Checks that use Strength/Dexterity/Constitution with 15x Strength.
In truth, most people would be moving at -10 speed most of the time with this system.
It is a variant, however and the Core system is just "encumbrance is 15x Strength." That would still put your average group about the same / a little lower than before, but it would have to be more spread out on characters.

Last edited by Xvim; 24/03/20 02:49 PM.
Re: Ammunition management [Re: Xvim] #664931
25/03/20 12:58 AM
25/03/20 12:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 92
AnonySimon Offline
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AnonySimon  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by Xvim
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I totally agree it was sometimes boring but absolutely not because of the weight. It was because of the place it tooks in the inventory (that inconvenient was also reduced when stack had increased).
Add an "ammo belt" for ranged units in BG1&2 and there's no more inventory management problem.


Right. The question is, in what form would you like to see the arrow management done? By simply needing arrows and making sure you have them stocked up or by adding weight to those arrows (as inventories do not seem to have slot limitations)? Or another way?


I would like Baldur's Gate 3 to use D&D 5e rules; Namely that if you are proficient with Woodcarving Tools, you can automatically craft 5 arrows during a short rest, or craft 20 arrows during a long rest.

Because it has been confirmed that the time between combats is considered a short rest, I think it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to allow the crafting of 5 arrows after every combat, and crafting 20 arrows whenever the PCs make camp.

Weight wise, I have never really been a fan of weighted ammo, but I also don't want to see such hardcoded (I would much prefer a setting toggle that lets you choose whether or not you have weighted ammo or not).

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