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what does that even mean "teach you how D&D is meant to be played"? As if I need to be taught? Baldur's Gate is a computer RPG based on D&D. It was never meant or designed to be an accurate translation of PnP rules.

Even Larian is making exceptional changes to D&D to make it work as a video game. Which is the same reason Bioware went with RTwP, to harness the video game part of the product.

Wizards is making a HUGE error in trying to push BG3 as an entry to PnP D&D.

Of course BG3 will be a success, though. It already bought its success through marketing.

Last edited by qhristoff; 10/04/20 06:55 PM.
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
I do look forward to BG3.

Baldur's Gate is 100% my favourite game of all time. BG1&2 represent a "true" masterpiece in the artistic sense where the confluence of writing and the level of player influence over the story hit a peak that, quite honestly, have NEVER been seen since. And they likely won't be. The only other game to ever match BG was Chrono Trigger - which I think is the best game of all time (even if I *like* BG more - mostly because I love RTwP combat).

I also believe 100% that Larian wants to make the best game they can, I am never going to fault Larian for passion or desire or intent. They love games, they love RPGs. But I honestly have reservations about how much they actually love Baldur's Gate, given the repeated bashing of it by Imbert and others which has created a negative atmosphere amongst the easy persuaded fan base.

I think that the hints of the Three pulling the strings is an interesting narrative choice, and the subtle hints that perhaps the mind flayers aren't actually the villains is also neat.

But why is this a Baldur's Gate game? I would be sincerely surprised if the links were more than just easter eggs and setting throwbacks.

None of the graphic style remains, none of the characters remain, none of the combat or innovative D&D adaptations remain. It could be called anything other than Baldur's Gate and still be an impressive new entry for D&D fans.

Imagine if DOOM Eternal were a tactical shooter like Rainbow Six and it's only link was the past existence of the Icon of Sin and demons from Hell, and Doom Guy easter eggs. Would you still call it DOOM?

I do not like Larian games. I find their writing and their goofiness to be off putting and insipid. I find their combat design to be exceptionally basic and gimmicky. Without flinching from the fact, when I first heard that Larian got the BG license, my heart dropped.

But BG is something I love, so I am willing to sit through all of the hatred from Larian fans who think I am just a troll because I am disappointed. I will buy the game because I am a collector, and because I cannot fully judge the game until I play it.

But I have been gaming for 3 decades. I've seen everything that has come out and I have followed every thread of the evolution of the gaming industry. I have absolutely no faith that what we saw in the gameplay reveal will substantially change. I have absolutely no faith that Larian is capable of making anything but re-iterations of what they've already done. They are taking zero risk by editing the DOS2 engine. No matter how you slice it, BG3 is just a heavily modified DOS2.

Swen himself said in an interview in Malaysia that he thinks BG has wider reach than Divinity, and so this is an opportunity to show more people what Divinity games are like, and to sell more Divinity games. Although, much of what he said during the AMA gave me more respect for him. Part of me thinks that Wizards is pulling more strings than the marketing is letting on.

I have zero faith or expectation that BG3 will be anything more than Divinity: Forgotten Realms. Which would be amazing and great if they didn't openly admit to gutting the soul of Baldur's Gate to do exactly that.

It's heartbreaking.


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^ as yes, the Larian brigade is arriving to belittle and derail.

Last edited by qhristoff; 10/04/20 06:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Imagine if DOOM Eternal were a tactical shooter like Rainbow Six and it's only link was the past existence of the Icon of Sin and demons from Hell, and Doom Guy easter eggs. Would you still call it DOOM?


The game mechanics will gonna be D&D 5e; with changes(always to worse), so the game will not gonna be like divinity.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
what does that even mean "teach you how D&D is meant to be played"? As if I need to be taught? Baldur's Gate is a computer RPG based on D&D. It was never meant or designed to be an accurate translation of PnP rules.

Even Larian is making exceptional changes to D&D to make it work as a video game. Which is the same reason Bioware went with RTwP, to harness the video game part of the product.

Wizards is making a HUGE error in trying to push BG3 as an entry to PnP D&D.

Of course BG3 will be a success, though. It already bought its success through marketing.

Think of it as a lecture. Everyone loves one, don't they? For decades fans of the original games have had their heads stuck in the sand thinking their favorite games were some sort of gospel for the video game industry. Well, BG3 is being made just to prove people like you wrong. In fact, BG1 and 2 were terrible games and you'll see why when this game launches.

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by qhristoff
Imagine if DOOM Eternal were a tactical shooter like Rainbow Six and it's only link was the past existence of the Icon of Sin and demons from Hell, and Doom Guy easter eggs. Would you still call it DOOM?


The game mechanics will gonna be D&D 5e; with changes(always to worse), so the game will not gonna be like divinity.

This just isn't true.

They are hiding all of the mechanics behind Divinity graphics. The PLAY of the game is 100% exactly like DOS2. You control the game and interact with the game 100% the same way. All the switch to 5e does is change the tactics you use during combat. But the combat is still going to PLAY exactly 100% the same as DOS2.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
what does that even mean "teach you how D&D is meant to be played"? As if I need to be taught? Baldur's Gate is a computer RPG based on D&D. It was never meant or designed to be an accurate translation of PnP rules.

Even Larian is making exceptional changes to D&D to make it work as a video game. Which is the same reason Bioware went with RTwP, to harness the video game part of the product. (...)


Do you know that BG is not the unique D&D adaptation? ToEE proved that you can have a faithful adaptation

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Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by qhristoff
what does that even mean "teach you how D&D is meant to be played"? As if I need to be taught? Baldur's Gate is a computer RPG based on D&D. It was never meant or designed to be an accurate translation of PnP rules.

Even Larian is making exceptional changes to D&D to make it work as a video game. Which is the same reason Bioware went with RTwP, to harness the video game part of the product.

Wizards is making a HUGE error in trying to push BG3 as an entry to PnP D&D.

Of course BG3 will be a success, though. It already bought its success through marketing.

Think of it as a lecture. Everyone loves one, don't they? For decades fans of the original games have had their heads stuck in the sand thinking their favorite games were some sort of gospel for the video game industry. Well, BG3 is being made just to prove people like you wrong. In fact, BG1 and 2 were terrible games and you'll see why when this game launches.

Excuse me? BG1/2 are a MASTERPIECE not just for BG fans, but regarded by THE ENTIRE GAMING INDUSTRY as the greatest cRPGs ever made.

The very notion that BG fans need a "lecture" about how to play D&D is fucking insulting.

The very notion that you think that BG fans expect a new game to be exactly like a 20 year old game is fucking insulting.

Larian fans, in general, are just fucking insulting.

Last edited by qhristoff; 10/04/20 07:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by qhristoff
what does that even mean "teach you how D&D is meant to be played"? As if I need to be taught? Baldur's Gate is a computer RPG based on D&D. It was never meant or designed to be an accurate translation of PnP rules.

Even Larian is making exceptional changes to D&D to make it work as a video game. Which is the same reason Bioware went with RTwP, to harness the video game part of the product. (...)


Do you know that BG is not the unique D&D adaptation? ToEE proved that you can have a faithful adaptation

yes, TOEE, the lowest selling least memorable D&D cRPG ever made, next to maybe Sword Coast Legends.

Last edited by qhristoff; 10/04/20 07:06 PM.
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I agree that the name of the game has the potential to be quite unfortunate for us BG fans, even if it turns out to be a great game. You gotta wonder if it hadn't been a better idea for Larian to call their DnD game something else, brand/franchise recognition be damned. We'll find out for sure eventually!


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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by qhristoff
what does that even mean "teach you how D&D is meant to be played"? As if I need to be taught? Baldur's Gate is a computer RPG based on D&D. It was never meant or designed to be an accurate translation of PnP rules.

Even Larian is making exceptional changes to D&D to make it work as a video game. Which is the same reason Bioware went with RTwP, to harness the video game part of the product.

Wizards is making a HUGE error in trying to push BG3 as an entry to PnP D&D.

Of course BG3 will be a success, though. It already bought its success through marketing.

Think of it as a lecture. Everyone loves one, don't they? For decades fans of the original games have had their heads stuck in the sand thinking their favorite games were some sort of gospel for the video game industry. Well, BG3 is being made just to prove people like you wrong. In fact, BG1 and 2 were terrible games and you'll see why when this game launches.

Excuse me? BG1/2 are a MASTERPIECE not just for BG fans, but regarded by THE ENTIRE GAMING INDUSTRY as the greatest cRPGs ever made.

The very notion that BG fans need a "lecture" about how to play D&D is fucking insulting.

The very notion that you think that BG fans expect a new game to be exactly like a 20 year old game is fucking insulting.

Larian fans, in general, are just fucking insulting.


So what? Insulting fans is key to long-term commercial success. You're supposed to attack them, humiliate them, disparage their opinions. It feels good.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Originally Posted by Torque
DOS2 turned it flawless.

it most certainly did not. you may really like it, but it is not a "flawless cut diamond".

the writing is crap.
the narrative is stunted.
the characters are memes.
the combat is repetitive and too reliant on cheese mechanics.
the combat is slow and tedious and lacks impressive set battles.
the restrictions to ranged combat are arbitrary and clearly a bandaid to some other design flaw they couldn't overcome.
the itemization of gear and loot is atrocious and meaningless.
the graphics look like they were all wrapped in saran wrap to keep them fresh until opened.

I could go on.


Alot of those things are subjective, I'm sure you realize. I dont like DOS2 either but my point about it being flawless was the amount of polish and perfection they made to "improve" from DOS1. I like the writing and the whacky humor mixed with a serious tone, though. Which is something people seem to absolutly detest, I mean there are no bounds to the absolute hatred people will conjure up whenever the topic of Larian writing comes up. I loved every bit of the story/narrative/tone of DOS1. (Cant speak for DOS2 though because I didnt play enough of it).

Originally Posted by qhristoff
the graphics look like they were all wrapped in saran wrap to keep them fresh until opened.


Nicely put. The ligthing effects, shadows and all that technical stuff can be summed up exactly like that, its "looks like its wrapped in saran wrap".

Last edited by Torque; 10/04/20 07:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by Torque
but my point about it being flawless was the amount of polish and perfection they made to "improve" from DOS1.


a highly polished turd is still a turd, but at least DOS 1 was an artistic turd, where DOS 2 was a corporate marketing turd.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by qhristoff
what does that even mean "teach you how D&D is meant to be played"? As if I need to be taught? Baldur's Gate is a computer RPG based on D&D. It was never meant or designed to be an accurate translation of PnP rules.

Even Larian is making exceptional changes to D&D to make it work as a video game. Which is the same reason Bioware went with RTwP, to harness the video game part of the product. (...)


Do you know that BG is not the unique D&D adaptation? ToEE proved that you can have a faithful adaptation

yes, TOEE, the lowest selling least memorable D&D cRPG ever made, next to maybe Sword Coast Legends.


Eh, that's not so important. BG3 doesn't even have to sell a thousand copies in order to be better than either BG1 or 2. As long as Swen and that Mearls guy can play it co-operatively online (complete with a faithful adaptation of 5E rules) it will have been a success that reinvigorates the entire genre.

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yes, let's reduce BG to being a forgettable entry like ToEE just so that Swen and Mearls can stroke their egos more.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Originally Posted by Torque
but my point about it being flawless was the amount of polish and perfection they made to "improve" from DOS1.


a highly polished turd is still a turd, but at least DOS 1 was an artistic turd, where DOS 2 was a corporate marketing turd.

Agreed. At least BG3 will capture the mood of the times - the early 21st century has been a highly polished turd after all.

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Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by qhristoff
Originally Posted by Torque
but my point about it being flawless was the amount of polish and perfection they made to "improve" from DOS1.


a highly polished turd is still a turd, but at least DOS 1 was an artistic turd, where DOS 2 was a corporate marketing turd.

Agreed. At least BG3 will capture the mood of the times - the early 21st century has been a highly polished turd after all.


Could you guys sound any less bitter lol frown

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because it was a buggy mess mostly.
ToEE is a great game. Mechanics wise at least.

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Originally Posted by CPT_SLOW
Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by qhristoff
Originally Posted by Torque
but my point about it being flawless was the amount of polish and perfection they made to "improve" from DOS1.


a highly polished turd is still a turd, but at least DOS 1 was an artistic turd, where DOS 2 was a corporate marketing turd.

Agreed. At least BG3 will capture the mood of the times - the early 21st century has been a highly polished turd after all.


Could you guys sound any less bitter lol frown

Nah, I'm just having a little fun. Bitterness will come later.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
(...)
Do you know that BG is not the unique D&D adaptation? ToEE proved that you can have a faithful adaptation

yes, TOEE, the lowest selling least memorable D&D cRPG ever made, next to maybe Sword Coast Legends. [/quote]

Are you really comparing the most faithful adaptation with the LEAST faithful adaptation? Anyway, look to gold box games then. They are mostly turn based and EXTREMELY harder

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