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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Originally Posted by Torque
but my point about it being flawless was the amount of polish and perfection they made to "improve" from DOS1.


a highly polished turd is still a turd, but at least DOS 1 was an artistic turd, where DOS 2 was a corporate marketing turd.


Why are you on a dedicated Larian forum if you hate the games they make?

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being a faithful adaptation doesn't make it a good game by default.

this is literally the central design philosophy behind Baldur's Gate.

Bioware knew that a perfect adaptation wasn't possible, so they put their chips and effort into the real time capabilities of computers.

Their risk resulted in BG being the best selling PC game launch of all time and created an industry distribution model that became the STANDARD for all games. The weapon wheel is Bioware's greatest legacy, and is a direct result of the RTwP innovations that they pursued as a studio.

Baldur's Gate is a masterpiece for a great many reasons.

All the complaints about RTwP boil down to limitations in computing 20 years ago. The fact that no one has innovated it since Infinity Engine is kind of tangential - the potential is still there.


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Originally Posted by Torque
Originally Posted by qhristoff
Originally Posted by Torque
but my point about it being flawless was the amount of polish and perfection they made to "improve" from DOS1.


a highly polished turd is still a turd, but at least DOS 1 was an artistic turd, where DOS 2 was a corporate marketing turd.


Why are you on a dedicated Larian forum if you hate the games they make?


if you'd even bothered to read the conversation thus far, you'd know it's because I am a Baldur's Gate fan.

Larian chose to take on a franchise with existing fans. I didn't choose them. Deal with it, like I am.

This is the official Baldur's Gate 3 forum.

Last edited by qhristoff; 10/04/20 07:27 PM.
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Even though I think you're a little overly harsh, I share a lot of your sentiments qhristoff.


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Originally Posted by qhristoff


if you'd even bothered to read the conversation thus far, you'd know it's because I am a Baldur's Gate fan.

Larian chose to take on a franchise with existing fans. I didn't choose them. Deal with it, like I am.

This is the official Baldur's Gate 3 forum.


It seems like Baldurs Gate 3 will be a game that you will hate aswell.

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and a perfect adaptation of balurs gate isnt possible either, and shouldnt be done.

almost all of the arguments can be made for the other side aswell.

man this topic is fucking boring.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
and a perfect adaptation of balurs gate isnt possible either, and shouldnt be done.

almost all of the arguments can be made for the other side aswell.

man this topic is fucking boring.


Is anyone honestly expecting or asking for a perfect adaptation though? Asking / expecting a closer adaptation than what we've been shown so far, yes 100%. But that's hardly the same thing. If the topic's turned boring for you, why engage?

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Originally Posted by CPT_SLOW
Is anyone honestly expecting or asking for a perfect adaptation though?


No, and I wish I knew what to call the logical fallacy wherein somehow the argument keeps getting reduced to "BG fans only want a 100% copy of BG" ... as if we aren't also looking for updates, innovations, and improvements to the game we love - which INCLUDES the RTwP combat.

Pillars of Eternity had numerous flaws (linear progression and a stunted ending, most notably. the story is actually incredibly rich if you take the time to dive into the implications of what the Leaden Key really means, etc. I bought their books to use it as a campaign setting for PnP), but it at least improved upon the technical and visual components in a way that tugged on my heart strings rather than cut them in twain. I find P:K too cartoony and bulky for my tastes, which makes the game seem to move very slowly, but they also understand the value of improving upon RTwP and modernizing it.

Last edited by qhristoff; 10/04/20 08:03 PM.
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were in a thread where people argued that it doesnt look like baldurs gate enaugh.
and then also argued that "no they totaly dont want a 2d game"

so basicalyl the argument applies.

you cannot make a game look like baldurs gate without also toning down tis graphics.
Expecting that is an impossibility.

You can call it a logical fallacy all you want. Doesnt make it less true.

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Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by qhristoff
what does that even mean "teach you how D&D is meant to be played"? As if I need to be taught? Baldur's Gate is a computer RPG based on D&D. It was never meant or designed to be an accurate translation of PnP rules.

Even Larian is making exceptional changes to D&D to make it work as a video game. Which is the same reason Bioware went with RTwP, to harness the video game part of the product.

Wizards is making a HUGE error in trying to push BG3 as an entry to PnP D&D.

Of course BG3 will be a success, though. It already bought its success through marketing.

Think of it as a lecture. Everyone loves one, don't they? For decades fans of the original games have had their heads stuck in the sand thinking their favorite games were some sort of gospel for the video game industry. Well, BG3 is being made just to prove people like you wrong. In fact, BG1 and 2 were terrible games and you'll see why when this game launches.

This is a bit of a false dichotomy. Qhristoff is a zealot, not really representative of BG fans. I loved the original BG-series dearly and replayed it when Beamdog's Enhanced Edition was released. That alone places me among the more ardent parts of the fandom. But I was knowingly chasing nostalgia more than a classic that could withstand the test of time. So what made the original series a classic? Mostly because the games overdelivered so hard on contemporary expectations which even Bioware has admitted isn't possible today. Removed from that context, I agree Baldur's Gate should *not* be gospel in terms of game mechanics which is the focus of almost all of the BG3-criticism. That said; BG has made RPG staples like party interaction/banter, romance, character evolution and a deep storyline. DOS2 (my first and only Larian game) was more of a spiritual successor of the original series than Bioware's own NWN and DA in all regards in my opinion.

I think we agree BG3 is a smart move for both Larian and especially Wizards of the Coast. BG3 will revive a dead classic and furthermore showcase both D&D 5e and Larian. Taking the example of another Black Isle Studio title; the rights to Fallout was bought by Bethesda back in 2007. Fallout 3 was a revolution in terms of game mechanics and played nothing like its prequels, yet brought millions new gamers into the fandom.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael

I think we agree BG3 is a smart move for both Larian and especially Wizards of the Coast. BG3 will revive a dead classic and furthermore showcase both D&D 5e and Larian. Taking the example of another Black Isle Studio title; the rights to Fallout was bought by Bethesda back in 2007. Fallout 3 was a revolution in terms of game mechanics and played nothing like its prequels, yet brought millions new gamers into the fandom.


If, as with the change in the Fallout franchise, Larian were producing BG3 as a first-person, real-time, single-player RPG set in the Forgotten Realms with newly-developed mechanics, I would be looking forward to it with much greater anticipation. But that is not what BG3 is going to be.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Qhristoff is a zealot,


LOL. I would like you to quantify your statement, or fuck right off.

What's your steam username? because that's the only other place where people call RTwP fans zealots.

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I wish we knew *who* was representative of the fandom. Normally, a company would conduct a survey to gather such data but if you're 100% sure your product is going to be a hit I guess you don't need to (*cough* group-think). smile

Last edited by korotama; 11/04/20 08:00 PM.
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^ interestingly, in the post-mortem video about Deadfire with Josh Sawyer, he talks in the early part of the lecture about data he had received from Swen Vincke (who is a data-hound par excellence, btw, don't argue numbers with that man) that showed there was almost zero overlap between the Pillars and Divinity demographics.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
^ interestingly, in the post-mortem video about Deadfire with Josh Sawyer, he talks in the early part of the lecture about data he had received from Swen Vincke (who is a data-hound par excellence, btw, don't argue numbers with that man) that showed there was almost zero overlap between the Pillars and Divinity demographics.


Really? I wonder, does that mean people only like one having tried both, or does it mean they only purchase one, not both? Most people posting here seem to have played both PoE and D:OS. I started both and finished neither, as they were both lacklustre games. I'm certainly hoping BG3 is a significant improvement.

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Originally Posted by etonbears
Originally Posted by qhristoff
^ interestingly, in the post-mortem video about Deadfire with Josh Sawyer, he talks in the early part of the lecture about data he had received from Swen Vincke (who is a data-hound par excellence, btw, don't argue numbers with that man) that showed there was almost zero overlap between the Pillars and Divinity demographics.


Really? I wonder, does that mean people only like one having tried both, or does it mean they only purchase one, not both? Most people posting here seem to have played both PoE and D:OS. I started both and finished neither, as they were both lacklustre games. I'm certainly hoping BG3 is a significant improvement.


Same here.. well with the exception that I was able to finish PoE eventually. D:OS was novel for a while as I played it with a buddy of mine but we kind of got bored I suppose. Wasn't a fan of the virtually non-existent character development in PoE while D:OS didn't even take itself seriously.

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Keep in mind, marketing demographics aren't just based on binary "do you like it" kind of measurements but rather a huge amount of cross referenced points, and Josh Sawyer didn't go in to deep detail, but the comment itself was interesting, to suggest how little crossover there is.

It correlates with the poll from PC Gamer where there is a very unusually clean split in preference between combat systems with a 46/54 split which almost does make it look like a binary split.

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It makes sense. PoE is RTwP, dark and gloomy. D:OS is TB and goofy. They're practically binary opposites.

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Originally Posted by korotama
It makes sense. PoE is RTwP, dark and gloomy. D:OS is TB and goofy. They're practically binary opposites.


I love TB and RTwP games. Love ToEE and BG

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Keep in mind, marketing demographics aren't just based on binary "do you like it" kind of measurements but rather a huge amount of cross referenced points, and Josh Sawyer didn't go in to deep detail, but the comment itself was interesting, to suggest how little crossover there is.

It correlates with the poll from PC Gamer where there is a very unusually clean split in preference between combat systems with a 46/54 split which almost does make it look like a binary split.


That's why I was interested in what his comments meant. A lot of gamers will try something they are not sure of ( although perhaps later in the lifecycle, and at a discount ), but can't then be relied upon to buy subsequent games in a series.

Sometimes it is as simple as a preference for some mechanic or other, but generally it's more about whether the game was enjoyable or not. I bought PoE, didn't finish it, so was obviously not waiting with 'bated breath for Deadfire ( particularly as the Deadfire marketing stressed pirates, which are a turn-off for me ). I think I have subsequently bought it in a Steam sale, because I think I will eventually go back to finish PoE, as it had some redeeming features.

The same is true of D:OS. I tried it, didn't finish it and therefore didn't buy D:OS2. But alhough I prefer RT, the combat system alone wouldn't prevent me from buying a game. The problem with D:OS was that I didn't get engaged by the world, the story, the character system, the item system, or aything else. The one good idea D:OS had ( environmental interaction ) was ruined through over-use. I don't know that I will ever go back to finish D:OS as there are so many better games available.

But not liking Original Sin games does not mean I won't like BG3. At the very least, it has a great setting in the Forgotten Realms, I have hopes that their story-telling has improved ( the higher production values will help here ), and although D&D has gone downhill since the early editions, the character and item systems are still better that Original Sin.

This is why I am surprised that a "typical gamer" might be considered to be rigid and inflexible.

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