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journeyman
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>Democrats were in favor of both open borders and free trade

Could you give me source? What exactly are you talking about? The more emotional you get the less coherent your arguments become. Ignoring whataboutism I am very much in favor of world wide denuclearization.

I won't respond to your gish galop of sex issues. But for this argument:
>Abortion is a pathological occurrence in society that traumatizes people

https://www.ansirh.org/sites/default/files/publications/files/turnaway_study_brief_web.pdf

It's not based in reality, it mostly comes from false religious beliefs.

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<psst> /hey, over here in the corner./

wha ..? Oh it's quiet over here.

/Yeah, this is why we don't need politics in video games. Party over here, politics over there./

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
<psst> /hey, over here in the corner./

wha ..? Oh it's quiet over here.

/Yeah, this is why we don't need politics in video games. Party over here, politics over there./


Precisely my point. Quod erat demonstrandum.

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the point every one else is making is that there wasn't any until YOU brought it up. and you seem most devoted to keeping the debate going.

it is the definition of hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by TadasGa
Originally Posted by korotama
. However, saying that on a fundamental level they are somehow different from Republicans is extremely far-fetched and naive to me.


It's a very common idea, but if you look at voting patterns of rep vs dems, there is a very clear difference. Dem party has shitload of problems, but it's miles better than republicans. Obamacare was very flawed, but it was step into right direction, uninsusured people went from 44.3 to 28.2 mil. After trumps changes - it is projected to grow 24% by 2029. Iran deal was AMAZING, it's insane that they managed to negotiate it so favorably, it has decreased world conflict and obviously, trump fucks it up. In terms of abortion rights - republicans and especially trump is pandering to fundamentalist evangelicals (he has 75% approval rating from then), in roe vs wade overturn there is very clear distinction. In terms of ICE there is clear differencde, gun control etc etc.

No. They are not the same.


They both suck, as a Canadian Universal Health-care WORKS!, yet you Americans just seem to love doing things the hard and confusing way.

Both Republicans and Democrats pander to the rich, all other pandering is in service to the goals of the rich. Your political system is a failure, it was a failure before Trump, it's a, Failure now, and unless you reform it will continue to be a massive failure.

And both Democrats and Republican Presidents and Governors are at fault, because none of them fixed the health-care system, and no Obamacare wasn't a fix, it had it's own problems, it was a bandaid, not a solution.

And now you are were you are, in the midst of a disaster, each side pointing fingers at each other when the truth was both sides had a chance to creator a modern, public health-care system, and decided nacking the rich was more important.

Canada 131 deaths, the United States has over 5,000, which even accounting for population size differences (the US has roughly 10 times Canada's population), is absolutely huge. And Trump only gets so much of the blame.

Sorry but seeing a pissing contest between Republicans and Democracts over whose shitty useless system would have been better when there was a PROVEN model that has saved lives is more then I can bare, while watching neighbours to the south disintegrate before my eyes into chaos.

Meanwhile we can look forward to Biden and Trump accusing each other of being a rapist without trials during future debates, and competing on who can protect the rich from universal healthcare at the expense of your citizens faster.

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Originally Posted by TadasGa
>Democrats were in favor of both open borders and free trade

Could you give me source? What exactly are you talking about? The more emotional you get the less coherent your arguments become. Ignoring whataboutism I am very much in favor of world wide denuclearization.

I won't respond to your gish galop of sex issues. But for this argument:
>Abortion is a pathological occurrence in society that traumatizes people

https://www.ansirh.org/sites/default/files/publications/files/turnaway_study_brief_web.pdf

It's not based in reality, it mostly comes from false religious beliefs.


Bill Clinton (D) signed NAFTA in 1993. As far as open borders, cf. https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/illegal-immigration-democrats-open-borders/ (it's not even a recent article). Denuclearization is never going to happen - nuclear weapons are a very powerful deterrent against your rivals and potential invaders, it's why countries like Iran and N. Korea want them. It's not really whataboutism - Iran is by no means a warmongering country with imperial capacities but a regional power and poses a much lesser threat to world peace than the US.

Regarding abortion: https://afterabortion.org/abortion-...-abortion-dangers-abortion-side-effects/
Also, if there were no need for abortions in society healthcare would be able to focus its efforts on other life-threatening medical conditions. Obviously refusing women access to abortion has a negative impact as per your source, but I don't see how you can consider it a normal / harmless thing.

Since people are getting tired of this debate, I think it's fair to call it even now. PM me if you're interested in further conversation.



Last edited by korotama; 02/04/20 09:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by vometia
Perhaps we could stick to debating. This approach isn't going to change anybody else's mind and neither will it win the internets.

I've left the topic open to discuss stuff but not if it's just noise.


It does not come from a place of anger - it is merely passionate. Changing someone's mind takes a long time so obviously that isn't the goal here. However, you can broaden your interlocutor's horizons by exposing them to a different set of opinions. I consider it a stressful albeit enriching experience plus the internet is arguably a safer place to do it than a real-life setting.

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Originally Posted by korotama
It does not come from a place of anger - it is merely passionate. Changing someone's mind takes a long time so obviously that isn't the goal here. However, you can broaden your interlocutor's horizons by exposing them to a different set of opinions. I consider it a stressful albeit enriching experience plus the internet is arguably a safer place to do it than a real-life setting.

There is that and to some extent I agree with your point, but the trouble is it so often becomes personal which then spills over into other areas of the forum in question in the longer term and can become disruptive. It might be better once we've resurrected the general chat forum which is languishing where nobody can find it, but still waiting for the go-ahead with that. It can be a headache to babysit though: there's a reason most forums disallow politics, religion and the usual slew of "don't go there" debates.


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Originally Posted by StrikerofStars

...Please, keep politics out of the game? Most of us are tired of people trying to force crazy ideologies down our throats at every single opportunity, or rich corporations trying to signal virtue by propagandizing the evils of capitalism and the wonders of socialism...

It is bad enough that Star Wars and half the others franchises around got destroyed by Socialjusticewarriorism. Remember: go woke, go broke...


If it is politics that deal with the factions in the game itself, that doesn't bother me at all.

But if it's stuff about the real world? Eh, I do agree. I mean ten years down the road those IRL political jabs would be old news really. Gosh, first thing that comes to mind is watching the old Star Trek episodes and Gene Rodenberry put in a lot of political views and issues from the real world into the plots of the story.

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As for NAFTA - world is moving towards creating trading blocks, because of success of EU. As a trading block, not only it's beneficial for memebers withing the block, but the negotiating power of trading block >> negotiating power of individual country. Also given that you needed to go 30 years ago to find an example is kind of telling.

You have linked old article on a single speech Hillary gave? Often misinterpreted 2018 poll shows:

Given the choice between "open borders" — a position that no mainstream political leaders are proposing — and a "secure border," which is current U.S. policy, 79 percent of Americans agreed that the U.S. needs "secure borders."

The study you linked is on 1997 Finish study, this is critique from experts:

The Finnish study (5–7) did not control for the factors that are known to lead to the need for abortion, such as history of mental health conditions, violence, and abuse, and to increase a person’s risk of experiencing suicidal ideation or behaviors (8–11). When studies fail to account for these preexisting risk factors, they may misattribute any adverse mental health outcomes to the abortion rather than to those factors. Studies that control for these confounding factors have found that abortion is not associated with an increased risk of suicidal ideation or behaviors (12–14).

Edit: for physical harm: In our study sample, women who gave birth reported potentially life-threatening complications, such as eclampsia and postpartum hemorrhage, whereas those having abortions did not. Women who gave birth reported the need to limit physical activity for a period of time three times longer than that reported by women who received abortions. Among all women enrolled in the Turnaway Study, one maternal death was identified—one woman who had been denied an abortion died from a condition that confers a higher risk of death among pregnant women. https://www.whijournal.com/article/S1049-3867(15)00158-9/fulltext

Last edited by TadasGa; 03/04/20 05:51 AM.
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When someone is saying please no politics it's more than likely code - "please no minorities ok ty?"

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Yes.
Same argument as for witcher.
Minorities should bethere if they make sense.
baldurs gate has a city part called little Calimsha, so there should obviously be middle eastern looking people there.

Why howver are, in Dragon age Inquisition, ltieraly 50% of the population of Not!England black?
And why not asian for that matter? (because black people are the only minority americans acknowledge, kind of my point on why tokenism is bad)

It should be consistent within the world.

So yes.

I am against minorities within my fantasy setting if they dont make sense within the world.

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Sure, I don't think there are many who would disagree that tokenism is crap. But quite often criticism is why is there minorities at all, for example - why is Tracer a lesbian, why is a minor transexual character in dai. Not that they are poorly written or don't fit in game world. Just that they exist. If the thought is "I don't want poorly written characters whose only character trait is that they are minority and they don't fit in story or context". I agree. I don't want characters like that either. BUT well written inclusive characters do make the game better.

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Originally Posted by TadasGa
Given the choice between "open borders" — a position that no mainstream political leaders are proposing

Not by that name. Democrats in the US have been claiming fences are racist for the last 3 years, though, and deportations inhumane, etc (but fine under Obama). During one of the early leadership debates, all 10 candidates raised their hand to providing health care to illegal immigrants. I assume they will flip back to the secure boarder position, or at least dial back the rhetoric, due to covid-19, but they were leaning pretty open boarder.


Originally Posted by TadasGa
When someone is saying please no politics it's more than likely code - "please no minorities ok ty?"

This assumes there is little or no reason to not want politics in entertainment (including the hamfisted, preachy kind).
Were this true, there would be backlash with 'minority' characters in games that did not insert politics.



Originally Posted by Sordak
I am against minorities within my fantasy setting if they dont make sense within the world.

It depends on the setting, and how it is done; personally I don't mind the odd black viking or white samurai if the story/setting isn't suppose to be historically accurate (half the population is a little hard to justify, though).



Originally Posted by TadasGa
why is Tracer a lesbian

Apparently she isn't in the Chinese localization.

Originally Posted by TadasGa
If the thought is "I don't want poorly written characters whose only character trait is that they are minority and they don't fit in story or context". I agree. I don't want characters like that either.

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were "more than likely" a bigot. biggrin

Originally Posted by TadasGa
BUT well written inclusive characters do make the game better.

Has anyone complained about well written inclusive characters? The politics people complain about in entertainment are the not-well-written kind.

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>claiming fences are racist

You do realise what a waste of resources trumps wall is? Illegal immigrants are mostly people who overstay their visas. Most of drugs comes trough legal crossing points. How effective will a wall be stopping drug trade in world with drones? It's not just building wall, it's all the intrastructure surrouding it. It's millions and millions dollars every year for a meme. It's a childs solution. Let's be real, it has nothing to do with immigration, but everything to do with trumps campaign slogan. It's a monument to stupidity. Just for a laugh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oP8H9nQKT4 Top notch security: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToFk0kwrN9k

>Apparently she isn't in the Chinese localization.

Yeah after blizzard became activision-blizzard the company is all about those dollar signs in their eyes, I think their undead have no showing bones in chinese version and there was also this diablo mobile thingy and honk-hong thingy.. If it's not already there it's moving to EA and Bethesda tier fast.

>Has anyone complained about well written inclusive characters?

Well it's the internet if you start senetence with "has anyone complained about x" the answer is always yes. But more to the point, I think there are a lot more of "oh this movie sucked, it's because they went full SJW" when the movie script just sucked and it happened to include some minorities. Latest star wars trilogy script was really bad and there is more than enough good faith criticism. But there is loud crowd crying it's because of sjw. It's nonsense.The fuck cringy luke drinking blue milk scene had to do with sjw? The fuck constant memberberries? The fuck pacing? The fuck lack of build up and pay off? The fuck with plotholes like hyperspeed ramming? The fuck with crazy op new jedi powers? It's just lazy excuse. It follows the same pattern - something bad - point thinger to something you don't like, even if it has nothing to do with it. It's not only that latest star wars trilogy sucked, han solo movie sucked, most dc movies suck etc etc. Sucking has nothing to do with including minorities. Bad writing is just that - bad writing.

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Originally Posted by Raze
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were "more than likely" a bigot. biggrin


okay, time out.

where the hell do you come off, as an employee representative, saying something like this about one of your fans because they have an opinion that you don't concur with?

I've been lurking a lot since the game play reveal, and frankly, if I was in charge of communications at Larian, I'd have pulled your privileges ages ago for being an abrasive and rude gate keeper.

I have a multitude of screenshots I've been taking of your posts.

You need training in how to deal with the public.

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>where the hell do you come off, as an employee representative, saying something like this about one of your fans because they have an opinion that you don't concur with?

He doesn't mean it as an insult, he is referring that opinion I stated is somewhat simillar to what would possibly get called as a "bigoted" by overzealous sjw.

Last edited by TadasGa; 03/04/20 04:43 PM.
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It doesn't matter if it is meant as an insult. He is a representative of Larian, and now Wizards and Hasbro, and his actions here reflect upon the entire organization.

You can dismiss the veiled insult all you want, because you know the context, but the veil and the insult are still there.

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I really feel that you are reaching here..

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Originally Posted by TadasGa
Sure, I don't think there are many who would disagree that tokenism is crap. But quite often criticism is why is there minorities at all, for example - why is Tracer a lesbian, why is a minor transexual character in dai. Not that they are poorly written or don't fit in game world. Just that they exist. If the thought is "I don't want poorly written characters whose only character trait is that they are minority and they don't fit in story or context". I agree. I don't want characters like that either. BUT well written inclusive characters do make the game better.

Well written characters make the games better wether they are minorities or not. One major complaint is to write a character just to state from nowhere "oh he is a drag queen btw" when that never had any part in the story.

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