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What the hell does this have to do with BG3?! *Screams, foaming at the mouth*

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Originally Posted by Ser Varnell
What the hell does this have to do with BG3?! *Screams, foaming at the mouth*

It's albeit tangentially related to the OP, and I'm still awaiting the go-ahead to move the general chat forum somewhere people might find it, so here it is. With the exception of the TB/RTwP debate we don't generally police discussions for strict relevance... but yeah, at this point it is a bit of a stretch to say it's really anything to do with BG3!


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I love it when people complain about sjw stuff making themselves a sjw

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sure buddy...

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Originally Posted by vometia
[quote=Blade238]
OTOH, are fantasy role-playing games the best medium for this? Some subtle amount of inclusion, maybe; caveats are reasons already mentioned by many which is most people are fairly relaxed until someone starts preaching. Nobody plays video games to be preached at.


Brienne from ASoIaF carries herself as a man, looks like man, wants to do masculine things (like be a knight). If she lived in Real World year 2020 she could easily identify as a man and talk about how we need to "destroy the cis-hetronormative patriarchy" and think everyone would benefit from reading some Judith Butler. But she doesnt do that because she's in Westeros which is a reflection of Europe year 1200 or so (sprinkled with magic). I cannot speak for the LGBT crowd but is that not "represenation"? GRRM has created a world where the norm is what we're used to but so many of the stories focuses on the outliers. The bastards, cripples and broken things (as Tyrion puts it).

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Originally Posted by Torque
Brienne from ASoIaF carries herself as a man, looks like man, wants to do masculine things (like be a knight). If she lived in Real World year 2020 she could easily identify as a man and talk about how we need to "destroy the cis-hetronormative patriarchy" and think everyone would benefit from reading some Judith Butler. But she doesnt do that because she's in Westeros which is a reflection of Europe year 1200 or so (sprinkled with magic). I cannot speak for the LGBT crowd but is that not "represenation"? GRRM has created a world where the norm is what we're used to but so many of the stories focuses on the outliers. The bastards, cripples and broken things (as Tyrion puts it).

Dunno really. I never thought of Brienne as anything but Brienne: she never struck me as any sort of LGBT statement. It's 25+ years since I read any of ASoIaF and I can't even remember if she was in the bits I read, but in the TV depiction I never got a hint of anything like that about her: I mean yeah, kinda the logical conclusion of what a tomboy is maybe, but that's all I took from it.


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brienne is an ugly woman who wants to be a knight.
That doesnt make her anyhting less of a woman.
what is this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Torque
Brienne from ASoIaF carries herself as a man, looks like man, wants to do masculine things (like be a knight). If she lived in Real World year 2020 she could easily identify as a man and talk about how we need to "destroy the cis-hetronormative patriarchy" and think everyone would benefit from reading some Judith Butler. But she doesnt do that because she's in Westeros which is a reflection of Europe year 1200 or so (sprinkled with magic). I cannot speak for the LGBT crowd but is that not "represenation"? GRRM has created a world where the norm is what we're used to but so many of the stories focuses on the outliers. The bastards, cripples and broken things (as Tyrion puts it).

Dunno really. I never thought of Brienne as anything but Brienne: she never struck me as any sort of LGBT statement. It's 25+ years since I read any of ASoIaF and I can't even remember if she was in the bits I read, but in the TV depiction I never got a hint of anything like that about her: I mean yeah, kinda the logical conclusion of what a tomboy is maybe, but that's all I took from it.


No, I agree. She is not a LGBT statement but with some creative thinking she could easily become one. The point was about political narratives being subtle enough that you cannot make a definitive claim about them. GRRMs books are full of messages but theyre not MESSAGES in bright neon lights.

Brienne have plenty of POV chapters in the books and the tv show adaptation does her justice except she's more masculine in the books. Gwendoline is basically just a tall woman.

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Originally Posted by Torque
Brienne have plenty of POV chapters in the books and the tv show adaptation does her justice except she's more masculine in the books. Gwendoline is basically just a tall woman.

I wouldn't say "just"; I encountered a policewoman who looked quite similar when I required some, ahem, RL moderation, and she wasn't "just" anything, she was serious business.


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i think its a bad way of thinking about it when a masculine woman automatically gets labled, or treated as, something other than a woman or assumtpions about her sexuality are made.

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in the books Brienne wants to be a knight because she has a huge crush on Renly, but she's too ugly to be a lady of the court. she isn't gay.

and example this is a prime example of how LGBT try to usurp existing narratives to suit their own perspective, instead of sharing new perspectives.

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I think one issue for some people is that they don't like to feel manipulated into accepting a viewpoint regardless of whether that is the writers intent or not. I can see how if you have a medium that you enjoy, whether it be video games, comic books, movies, literature, etc. some writers could come across as using the medium as a vehicle to subversively expose people to their viewpoint, in turn being disrespectful to the medium and the consumer of said medium. Nobody likes feeling used.

I would argue that no topic should necessarily be off limits if its reason for being included is to tell a compelling, engaging story, but who is able to make that determination? I would wager to think that there are some writers would claim that something is included purely for artistic merit when in truth at some level, consciously or not, they are seeking validation for themselves or their views. I also have to ask myself if somethings appears to be included for political or validation reasons is it just because it doesn't align with my own idealogical viewpoint and would I even be able to recognize something that was included for reasons other than storytelling, especially if it already aligns with me idealogically. The best propaganda isn't viewed as propaganda, at face value it just makes sense.

Creators have their own values and I feel it would be a shame for them to have to censor stories they would like to tell an order to appease those that find their values offensive. Should I clamour for Warhammer 20k to be censored because of its ultra right wing themes? Should Star Trek be banned because it presents a socialist utopia? Are either of these political/propaganda or just interesting stories?

Let's take a transgendered character for instance. I think if done right it could be a great way to explore themes of rejection, bigotry, isolation, acceptance, self-worth etc.. as well as (And I want to make it very clear that this is not a viewpoint I am endosing, non of these traits, postive or negative, am I claiming to be inherit to a trans individual) perversion, mental illness, corruption, decadence etc.. If it makes for an interesting story or character and the intent is just that and not to incite persecution or violence in real life I say to hell with those that are offended whether they are conservative, liberal, religous, racist etc.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
in the books Brienne wants to be a knight because she has a huge crush on Renly, but she's too ugly to be a lady of the court. she isn't gay.

and example this is a prime example of how LGBT try to usurp existing narratives to suit their own perspective, instead of sharing new perspectives.


You got the Brienne thing backwards. When the character first appear in the GOT series she was labelled as "ugly" "tomboy" "manly" a "rug muncher", a "dyke"
So some collectives, LGTB included, use her as an example of how a woman in a traditional manly role and with a particular look can be unjustly labelled by the society even tho the character was not gay from the start. Also how a manly woman is characterized as gay and it´s used as a pejorative with prejudice.

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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Originally Posted by qhristoff
in the books Brienne wants to be a knight because she has a huge crush on Renly, but she's too ugly to be a lady of the court. she isn't gay.

and example this is a prime example of how LGBT try to usurp existing narratives to suit their own perspective, instead of sharing new perspectives.


You got the Brienne thing backwards. When the character first appear in the GOT series she was labelled as "ugly" "tomboy" "manly" a "rug muncher", a "dyke"
So some collectives, LGTB included, use her as an example of how a woman in a traditional manly role and with a particular look can be unjustly labelled by the society even tho the character was not gay from the start. Also how a manly woman is characterized as gay and it´s used as a pejorative with prejudice.


Exactly, the point isnt that Brienne is gay but that everyone around her thinks she's gay. And if you want you can draw parallels to modern society about that. I dont think its necessary though, GRRM does a well enough job to humanize her beyond superficial lables.

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I think it would be a good thing, if the player would be asked in the beginning, if he/she wan'ts to have gay options in the game. If not, than don't let them show up in the game at all. I am tired of feminin looking gays that wanna have sex with the player character or huge warriors who want's to . . . up my characters . . .!

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Originally Posted by Karnigus
I think it would be a good thing, if the player would be asked in the beginning, if he/she wan'ts to have gay options in the game. If not, than don't let them show up in the game at all. I am tired of feminin looking gays that wanna have sex with the player character or huge warriors who want's to . . . up my characters . . .!


I believe that would be quite offensive to many people.

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Originally Posted by Lotrotk
I believe that would be quite offensive to many people.

Well quite. IMO suggesting at the outset that LGBT characters may be considered so offensive to some they can be screened out is no better than the unsubtle making-a-point-for-its-own-sake characterisations. Plus it just generates a bunch of unnecessary work and complication for the writers, voice actors and so on.


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Quote
I'll be honest; I did not see any politics in the recent Star Wars trilogy, outside of the in-universe stuff (rebels fighting against an empire). But I was not looking for any political message, either.


The first movie in the recent trilogy was alright. The second one was basically one long feminism and diversity propaganda showcase. It was quite surreal actually. The third one I haven’t watched because of how poor a craftsmanship the second one was, so can’t comment on it.

Last edited by Exclusif; 08/04/20 12:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Exclusif
The first movie in the recent trilogy was alright. The second one was basically one long feminism and diversity propaganda showcase. It was quite surreal actually. The third one I haven’t watched because of how poor a craftsmanship the second one was, so can’t comment on it.


I just saw "bad plot" and "bad storytelling" in the first two movies of the new Star Wars trilogy. (I haven't yet seen the third because of the aforementioned "bad plot" and "bad storytelling" present in the first two).

It's perfectly all right to dislike the new Star Wars trilogy. I dislike them because the writing is really bad and the plot is nonsensical. However, if all a person can see about those movies is "one long feminism and diversity propaganda showcase", that sounds very much like the words of someone who resents seeing women or people of colour getting the spotlight focus instead of white men specifically because they are not white men.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
if all a person can see about those movies is "one long feminism and diversity propaganda showcase"

How does 'basically' become 'entirely and exclusively'?

Originally Posted by Stabbey
that sounds very much like the words of someone who resents seeing women or people of colour getting the spotlight focus instead of white men specifically because they are not white men.

Then why is it that films pushed as feminist get backlash, but those that do not push a political agenda with prominent female or minority characters generally do not?

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