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Originally Posted by Aethelwolf

Things like weapon trails, impact effects, and air distortions can successfully convey a physicality to the move compared to magic, while still allowing the special actions to be easily discernible from standard attacks or movement.


Absolutely, but they should be kept minor and be used to separate melee skills, not be generically added for "cool effect". Using too much of an effect is the easy way out for uninspired or time-constrained developers. Proper sound effects paired with well-tuned animation, target reaction and on-hit effects like blood goes a long way.

Last edited by Exclusif; 23/06/20 05:33 PM.
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yeah, no.
sometimes you do what works and not what OUGHT to work.

Realism is overrated. Versimilitude is more important.

Last edited by Sordak; 23/06/20 05:49 PM.
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It works wonderfully, FYI.

Last edited by Exclusif; 23/06/20 05:58 PM.
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right.
Thats what they said about Mordhau too. and its a floaty mess

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Realism as gameplay mecanics and realism in anything visual is not the same......

Mordhau is boring to play but it is not that bad to watch.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/06/20 06:55 PM.
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i beg to differ.
mordhau feels floaty and weak for exactly that reason.

meanwhile For Honor might not be the most complex fighting game, but i dont think anyone would dispute that it looks and feels phenomenal

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I agree that mundane actions should have minimal effects and no flashing lights.

The excessive flashing lights are covering for bad impact physics (eg you there is huge delay between throwing a target and it actually being thrown away) and blood.

The blood (color and animation) looks as terrible as in DOS 2.

Also there is so many visual cues for ingame mechanics that just takes away the immersion.





Last edited by IrenicusBG3; 23/06/20 08:02 PM.
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I agree with the OP.
It is kind of an immersion breaker if non magical abilities, especially those on low levels have already magical animations (lights, particles, auras).
Its feels like to bring more bling bling to the game to parts which don’t need it. In addition, the real magical attacks are not so impressive anymore.

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Yeah.
this kind of opinion keeps getting regurgitated by people who do not think about it.

Because it sounds logical on paper, when you dont actually put any thought into it.
Realism is better, the reductionist cries!

Instead of actually analyzing which games are said to have a good combat presentation and which wont.

By this stupid standard, Skyrim has better Combat Simulation than Dark Souls.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
Yeah.
this kind of opinion keeps getting regurgitated by people who do not think about it.

Because it sounds logical on paper, when you dont actually put any thought into it.
Realism is better, the reductionist cries!

Instead of actually analyzing which games are said to have a good combat presentation and which wont.

By this stupid standard, Skyrim has better Combat Simulation than Dark Souls.


And this kind of opinion, calling other people’s personal preference stupid seems to be all too common here.

Whether non magic actions have fancy effects and to what extent is mainly a stylistic choice. There is no right or wrong about it.

Dark Souls’ and Skyrim’s combat systems are massively different. They are incomparable next to the small details we’re talking about here. Are you sure you really put any thought into your own “analysis”?

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Im free to debate your personal preferences if you want a change that directly goes against mine.

If you dont know how you can compare the two then youre proving my point that your argument is based on a knee jerk reaction rather than actual thought.

Dark Souls and Skyrim both represent Medieval Melee combat.

We dont talk about combat SYSTEM here. Were talking about combat PRESENTATION.

are you gonna argue that Skyrims combat represents osmething different than lets say Dark Souls or Dragons Dogmas combat?
Cause i think thats gonna be a hard case for you to argue


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Though I agree with the OP in general (tone down some of the more standard actions so magical and critical actions seem more impactful) I do so while also really liking what I see so far. The more I watch the more impressed I am with the mechanics in the game, how well they are adapting the D&D ruleset, the fidelity, and what appears to be a work of love.

So far I'm really looking forward to playing it. Though there are things I really would like to see "modified", It's looking at it from the perspective that it is already really good, but to be "perfect". And perfect is subjective and different for so many people I don't know if it really matters that much.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
i beg to differ.
mordhau feels floaty and weak for exactly that reason.

meanwhile For Honor might not be the most complex fighting game, but i dont think anyone would dispute that it looks and feels phenomenal


For honor is awfull...
Sometimes it looks like a chinese free to play game with ridiculous red slash effects each time you reach an ennemy... Sometimes it looks they took some kind of Battlefield UI with MMORPG effects to put them in their game...

I hope Baldur's Gate 3 won't look so cheap.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/06/20 12:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Im free to debate your personal preferences if you want a change that directly goes against mine.

If you dont know how you can compare the two then youre proving my point that your argument is based on a knee jerk reaction rather than actual thought.

Dark Souls and Skyrim both represent Medieval Melee combat.

We dont talk about combat SYSTEM here. Were talking about combat PRESENTATION.

are you gonna argue that Skyrims combat represents osmething different than lets say Dark Souls or Dragons Dogmas combat?
Cause i think thats gonna be a hard case for you to argue



Of course you should tell us what you prefer. Give us your reasons, provide examples, etc. That’s what we’re all here for. Maybe you’ll even convince other people.

I only object to people just dismissing other opinions for spurious reasons- someone’s not thought about it, they aren’t proper RPG fans, they aren’t proper BG fans, they’re just filthy casuals, etc. I fail to see any way to gauge a realistic vs more stylistic approach except by personal preference.

Yes, presentation is different from the system. Although whether a particular presentation works well for different people could depend much on the system. For instance the pace of combat in BG3 potentially allows more extravagant animations and effects that could be confusing in a twitch action game. BG3 will be very different to Dark Souls, which is very different to Skyrim. What works for one might not work for the others. They all have medieval melee combat and they all handle it completely differently.

Also you did say “simulation” above, not presentation. Simulation sounds to me like the whole package of combat mechanics, animations, effects, sound, etc.

BTW, I’m on the fence at the moment. I might try the early access and see how it actually feels to play.

Last edited by Dagless; 24/06/20 12:25 PM.
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>thinking for honor looks awfull
Well congratulations on proving my point.
theres a lot of criticisms of that game but its presentation certainly isnt one.
Which reminds me of the "Baldurs Gate is a cashcrab" posts. you have to be willfully ignorant to hold that opinion. For Honor, presentation wise, is probably the best (not the most realistic) depction of quasi medieval combat there is. Theres amazing mocap, great animations, good clarity and a great sense of weight that other games in the genre can only dream of.



Ive already given my reasons why i hold that opinion and ive done so before.
Games will never be realistic, not just from a technical standpoitn but from a standpoint of perspective.

Anyone that has ever helped with construction or soemthign like that can probably understand what im getting at here: smash something with a Sledgehammer and compare how it feels.
Does it feel like Kingdom come deliverence? which by all means is a pretty realistic game. Or does it feel different?

Watching someone break something isnt the same as breaking something yourself. You canot express the tactile expirience of force beeing acted upon an object by showing how it realisitcally looks like from the outside.

Especialy now if you dont have Exanima / Sui Generis levels of Hit detection and physics.

Im not dismissing stuff outhand, im pointing out that mybe before you parrot "Looks like in reality = GOOD" you might THINK about how that actually works out in gameplay.

The easiest way to do this is to point at video games that do it.
When you ask someone what video games have combat that feels right, theyll probably point towards the souls series, towards fighting games and towards dragons dogma.
They dont point towards Skyrim, and for a more top down appraoch: they dont point towards games like Eisenwald or Age of Empires.

Diablo like games have for a long time figured out that making things explode, having your screen shake and your animations be exagrated just produce a response that feels more like force is beeing applied.
Look at recent XCOM games if you want a turn based example.
Take XCOM and compare it to Age of Wonders Planetfall and tell me what feels more believeable.

Last edited by Sordak; 24/06/20 01:29 PM.
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I'd appreciate following rather viewing habits from cinema productions, than realism. Heck i know fights and all its asthetics from cinema ot from reality.

Some effects and lights are fine, but not to much,should cover up everything else. As it is turn-based i really would like slow-motion (I really love slow-mo and hope community update 3 trailer wasnt just showing slow-mo implemented by the editor but have this ingame too), different camera angles, and stuff that creates asthetic scenes. I personally think XCOM did a pretty good job, including the following camera (which had a toggle off option, though I kept enjoying it and mostly let in on).

Dash you be done well with slow-motion too. After Slowed down first the following acceleration looks much faster in comparision.

I could like this black white preview animation you saw in the demo (the one you saw in the attack enemy selection). Here you really could work with.

Finishing moves and so one would be awesome. (XCOM also did a rather satisfying job here)

Still a dream of mine was a toribash style animator implemted in the yet to release ingame editor. (that won't come anyway)


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Originally Posted by Sordak
>thinking for honor looks awfull
Well congratulations on proving my point.
theres a lot of criticisms of that game but its presentation certainly isnt one.
Which reminds me of the "Baldurs Gate is a cashcrab" posts. you have to be willfully ignorant to hold that opinion. For Honor, presentation wise, is probably the best (not the most realistic) depction of quasi medieval combat there is. Theres amazing mocap, great animations, good clarity and a great sense of weight that other games in the genre can only dream of.


You're really funny.
Thinking you always have the thruth is just a good combo in your head.

Visual effects in For Honor are according to me completely (visual) immersion breaking but guess what ?
Maybe that's not what it's players are looking for ?
Maybe that's why no one talked about it ?
Is that a proove that this game should suits everyone about that ?

About BG3 it looks many players are looking for something with less sensational visual effects, sounds and animations...

Are you wrong if you would like more ?
Of course not... You're always right rolleyes


Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/06/20 03:10 PM.
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So your argument is that one thing looks better in one genre but worse in another?
I can only say what is true for myself and what i can see from how games are judged.

you cannot speak for all the "ohter" fans that arent me.
you can only speak for yourself. And you could make comparisons in the same way that i do.

I invite you to do that.
I for one havent compared an mocaped fighting game to a mobile game. Sureley youre the reasonable one here

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Of course things can be good in one genre and totally or partially bad in another for many reasons... That's obvious...

I'm not talking for the others. I'm just reading topics.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/06/20 04:28 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sordak

Ive already given my reasons why i hold that opinion and ive done so before.
Games will never be realistic, not just from a technical standpoitn but from a standpoint of perspective.

Anyone that has ever helped with construction or soemthign like that can probably understand what im getting at here: smash something with a Sledgehammer and compare how it feels.
Does it feel like Kingdom come deliverence? which by all means is a pretty realistic game. Or does it feel different?

Watching someone break something isnt the same as breaking something yourself. You canot express the tactile expirience of force beeing acted upon an object by showing how it realisitcally looks like from the outside.


Eh? I don’t expect a game to give me the real life feeling of smashing something. Unless it’s so frustrating I put my keyboard through the monitor, I guess. What’s your point here?



Quote
Im not dismissing stuff outhand, im pointing out that mybe before you parrot "Looks like in reality = GOOD" you might THINK about how that actually works out in gameplay.


Parrot? Haha! Now you’re using language most commonly found in debates on issues like political propaganda, religious teachings or pseudo science.

Quote
The easiest way to do this is to point at video games that do it.
When you ask someone what video games have combat that feels right, theyll probably point towards the souls series, towards fighting games and towards dragons dogma.
They dont point towards Skyrim, and for a more top down appraoch: they dont point towards games like Eisenwald or Age of Empires.


Alright, but your examples don’t seem to work in relation to the topic. Let’s THINK this through, shall we?

Dark Souls combat generally doesn’t have a bunch of flashy effects, which is what you seem to be arguing for. Swinging swords, blocking, dodging, parrying, etc all look normal and are relatively slow and deliberate. Everything feels weighty and impactful. Having to pay careful attention to your enemy, time your moves well, etc is probably the core of why so many rate it. Many would call it all quite “realistic”. It doesn’t have the effects that people are arguing should be toned down, so how is it even an example to support that they should stay?

Skyrim is not noted for “realistic” combat. It’s not very flashy for a melee character either. It’s just not particularly good for combat. Now you’re trying to use a game that’s generally not noted for realism to bolster your argument that aiming for realism is bad.

Are you really saying Dark Souls combat is good because it’s not “realistic” compared to Skyrim which is bad because it is? Really? If you’d brought up something the Devil May Cry series, I’d at least understand what you meant. Combat in those games is supposed to be very good and it’s highly stylized.

Quote
Diablo like games have for a long time figured out that making things explode, having your screen shake and your animations be exagrated just produce a response that feels more like force is beeing applied.
Look at recent XCOM games if you want a turn based example.
Take XCOM and compare it to Age of Wonders Planetfall and tell me what feels more believeable.


Never played Diablo, but XCom doesn’t seem like a great example either. Shooting things or launching explosives seems to do pretty much what you’d expect them to. Other actions are not highly stylized. Activate run ‘n gun for instance and the soldier will say something like “going in for the kill” and that’s it. Overwatch is just marked by an icon next to your health bar. Compare that to the spectator light show of Reactive Shot in DOS2-

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxo7R5DWHMA

We’re not only talking about actions that should feel weighty and impactful. Seems what most people are saying could be turned down a bit are things like the jump with super hero landing. Does my stealthy rouge really need to look like Iron Man every time I jump a small gap? Besides, if things are too overdone, I often think they can get old fast.


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