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#669164 22/06/20 04:21 PM
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Hi Guys,

How would you feel if BG3 utilized the optional rule of spell points (described in DMG) rather than spell slots?

Personally, I would prefer spellpoints as it gives more freedom to use the resources.


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What are spell points? My guess would be something like "You get a pool of spell points equal to the number of spell slots * spell level", so 4 level 1 slots is 4 points, 3 level 2 slots is 6 points, and it takes [Spell level] number of points to cast a spell?

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
What are spell points? My guess would be something like "You get a pool of spell points equal to the number of spell slots * spell level", so 4 level 1 slots is 4 points, 3 level 2 slots is 6 points, and it takes [Spell level] number of points to cast a spell?


In DMG page 288, explains it. But basically there's a table that translates all spellslots into their equivalent spellpoints.
From memory, 1st =2sp, 2nd=3, 3rd=5, 4th=7 etc. It's not linear.
Each caster level has equally a table listing the number of spellpoints.
Additionally, the translation is fair, such that if you calculate the number of spell points from the vancian system it ends up being identical with the aforementioned table.

The only difference is that one can use all the spellpoints on high level spells opposed to being forced to use them at their respective spell slot level. Thus more free.

Table for spells vs spell cost:
https://images.app.goo.gl/9K2ybwWcVME3Yot36

Table for number of spellpoints based on caster level:
https://images.app.goo.gl/dkJy3vo25cE92ADD8


Last edited by Sequenze; 22/06/20 04:40 PM. Reason: Adding tables
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In 5E you can cast low level spells in a high level spell slot.

I think the whole point of the slot system is to prevent players from using their mana only for the most powerful spells.
You have only 1 lv9 spell per day, but then you can still cast lots of low level spells.


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Originally Posted by Madscientist
In 5E you can cast low level spells in a high level spell slot.

I think the whole point of the slot system is to prevent players from using their mana only for the most powerful spells.
You have only 1 lv9 spell per day, but then you can still cast lots of low level spells.


Yes but you can't use the low-level spellslots for higher level spells.
The spell points system is part of 5E. It's an optional system, just as feats are. It's not self-made but actually and literally a part of the system.

Look it up yourself. ☺️

That said, you would prefer spellslots over spellpoints?



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i actually prefer spell slots, kind of forces you to not "Min max" the points
"Freedom" is a false goal in RPGs as far as im concerned.

Last edited by Sordak; 22/06/20 06:46 PM.
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Would depend on the circumstances. There have definitely been times when the spellpoint flexibility would be useful, but the temptation to concentrate on the "best" spells could leave you with the wrong balance.

Specifically in BG3, spellpoint usefullness would probably depend on the spells available at any given point. On the whole I don't really mind, particularly given the level limit.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
i actually prefer spell slots, kind of forces you to not "Min max" the points
"Freedom" is a false goal in RPGs as far as im concerned.


I am not saying it's the goal. I personally prefer the freedom to be able to manage my spell resources rather than being gated into slots.


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I find I prefer spell slots, but mainly because that's what I'm used to with D&D (been playing since 1e). The management element, to me, is merely a 'poe-tay-toe' vs 'poe-tah-toe' factor. That's just me of course. I honestly find spell points a little more work to manage (still fairly simple, but requires more memory to work out how to spend the points if wanting to increase the casting level, vs just sticking the spell into a higher level slot). Again, just me and my preference, not some magnificent, inarguable fact. smile

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Its an interesting mechanic, but If we have a game where you could have magic mechanics different from other games I am not really into turning it into a "same as always" mana mechanics like any RPG-MMORPG in existence. (Because basically that´s what spellpoints is, the mainstream "I use my pool of mana/magicka/energy to cast my spells")

Also that would be like turning any caster into a Warlock, and I´m not really a fan of spells or mechanics that could make an entire class pointless. I like that any class could be unique and offer different ways of playing to the gamer.

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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Its an interesting mechanic, but If we have a game where you could have magic mechanics different from other games I am not really into turning it into a "same as always" mana mechanics like any RPG-MMORPG in existence. (Because basically that´s what spellpoints is, the mainstream "I use my pool of mana/magicka/energy to cast my spells")

Also that would be like turning any caster into a Warlock, and I´m not really a fan of spells or mechanics that could make an entire class pointless. I like that any class could be unique and offer different ways of playing to the gamer.

Spell points have been around since 2E (combat and tactics or spells and magic), so in essence they have been copying DND not the other way around.

Secondly, it's a pretty poor strawman, saying they it turns every caster into the warlock - as the casting mechanics is different. Also the warlock is not able to use the spellpoint system.

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Yeah, warlocks do not use spellpoints because warlocks already cast any of his spells at the highest level possible a limited number of times per day so spellpoints will be like turning the other casters into warlocks.

And I never said anything about MMORPGs copying D&D, I just said that I am not really interested in using a mechanic that is already applied in +100 games in a unique D&D game.
Already have enough of that with SwordCoastLegends.

That said, I understand if you like it, I prefer the vancian casting for a change instead of playing a mana-based MMORPG again.

Last edited by _Vic_; 23/06/20 08:14 AM.
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[quote=_Vic_]Yeah, warlocks do not use spellpoints because warlocks already cast any of his spells at the highest level possible a limited number of times per day so spellpoints will be like turning the other casters into warlocks.

/quote]
How so?

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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Its an interesting mechanic, but If we have a game where you could have magic mechanics different from other games I am not really into turning it into a "same as always" mana mechanics like any RPG-MMORPG in existence. (Because basically that´s what spellpoints is, the mainstream "I use my pool of mana/magicka/energy to cast my spells")

Also that would be like turning any caster into a Warlock, and I´m not really a fan of spells or mechanics that could make an entire class pointless. I like that any class could be unique and offer different ways of playing to the gamer.


I strongly agree. Spell slots are rarely used. Is good to see it in another game when even Dark Souls decided to abandon it with DS3.

Only wanna to detail that spell slots are not the "absolute" rule. But in certain D&D campaings, there was things similar to "mana". According to the book Netheril : Empire of Magic, a
game which happens BEFORE Mistra limited how magic works, a lv 20 arcanist could cast 17 tier 10 spells in a row. Each one taking 10 man, ops wave arcs.

Page 20 - Netheril: Empire of Magic bellow
[Linked Image]

And Karsus was at least lv 40 since is the bare minimum to cast Karsus Avatar.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 23/06/20 01:09 PM.
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With how resting seems to be presented in this game, I prefer spell slots. I don't want to see combat turn into a nova fest.

I also think most optional rule variants in general should be gone from the game. They are great for pen and paper because each table's game is played in isolation, and the DM can tailor a campaign for a table. BG3 needs to develop and balance a single, clean experience for hundreds of thousands of players. Subclasses, feats, and other character building options are fine, but changes to core rules are going to get in the way of that.

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Originally Posted by Aethelwolf
With how resting seems to be presented in this game, I prefer spell slots. I don't want to see combat turn into a nova fest.


The existing unlimited resting already turns it into a nova fest. The only reason not to rest after every fight is my personal disdain for another resting animation/interruption.

@Topic
I have a slight preference for spell slots. But have used and enjoyed both in the past.

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I'd prefer to stick with slots.

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I also prefer the spell slots because they encourage you to use lower level spells. Of course, we badly need to have some mechanism to discourage resting.

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Dungeons and Dragons Online uses the Spell Points system, pretty much in the same way as a mana bar.

The problem then came with Necromancy Wizards becoming the most broken class in the game going around spamming Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee.

This then had to be balanced by adding cooldowns, so Finger of Death got a 7s cooldown, Wotb got 30s, and also theres circle of death and PK that also have as such.

I'd like to have spell points and no cooldowns, in fact the latter wouldn't be a problem in this game as the combat is turn based.

Last edited by DumbleDorf; 25/10/20 11:12 AM.
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I like spell points as being more flexible, something I have always had a bit of a problem with in D&D.

The systems I prefer use fatigue/mana points to power spells, which is not a million miles away from spell points.

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