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Originally Posted by kanisatha
The guy talked a lot about "keeping things moving along" and "not breaking the flow" in combat. Hahaha. Made me laugh out loud. Seemed rather ridiculous an expectation to have given that TB combat by definition does NOT keep things moving along and DOES break the flow.


Depends how fast you can make decisions. Get Gud scrub!

wink

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Seemed rather ridiculous an expectation to have given that TB combat by definition does NOT keep things moving along and DOES break the flow.

*shrug* keeping the flow of combat not animations. Concern for the game to feel well to play an important one.

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Originally Posted by Dagless
Originally Posted by kanisatha
The guy talked a lot about "keeping things moving along" and "not breaking the flow" in combat. Hahaha. Made me laugh out loud. Seemed rather ridiculous an expectation to have given that TB combat by definition does NOT keep things moving along and DOES break the flow.


Depends how fast you can make decisions. Get Gud scrub!

wink

But isn't that exactly what many TB fans claim is bad about RTwP and why they want TB? To be able to take as many hours as they want to do one action? wink

Don't see how you can keep things moving along and have 'flow' with TB combat, but more power to Larian for thinking that they can! And as someone who hates TB combat precisely because of how ridiculously, tediously slow and clunky it is, I'd be very happy if they somehow manage to come up with such a miracle.

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I wonder if they're thinking about making a butt ton of expansions instead of a whole separate game. So it'd just be a DLC that's actually an entirely new campaign of similar length. I dunno, it seems like they're starting to realize that this game is bigger than they thought it was. Which is awesome haha.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Dagless
Originally Posted by kanisatha
The guy talked a lot about "keeping things moving along" and "not breaking the flow" in combat. Hahaha. Made me laugh out loud. Seemed rather ridiculous an expectation to have given that TB combat by definition does NOT keep things moving along and DOES break the flow.


Depends how fast you can make decisions. Get Gud scrub!

wink

But isn't that exactly what many TB fans claim is bad about RTwP and why they want TB? To be able to take as many hours as they want to do one action? wink

Don't see how you can keep things moving along and have 'flow' with TB combat, but more power to Larian for thinking that they can! And as someone who hates TB combat precisely because of how ridiculously, tediously slow and clunky it is, I'd be very happy if they somehow manage to come up with such a miracle.


Well, this is exactly what TB fans are looking for actually: having lots of time to think about what you're gonna do next but when you click on the action button, it goes fast because you already processed the different possible outcomes and you wish for the best one to pop up upon resolution.

Back on topic, I am also very glad the level cap is not set in stone. It would be neat to have a 12-13th level cap like in most D&D 5 official campaigns

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Gotta love the creativity of some people to (try to) turn anything into a discussion about TB fans vs RTwP fans (is that even a thing?) in a subforum of a game we know it´s TB for weeks now(and that unlikely it´s going to change) =D
That discussion was wearing months ago, now it´s simply pointless in a subforum specifically for Bg3.


Thoughts:

  • Nick Pechenin said that you can have several "Inspiration points" in BG3, so Inspiration would work differently, something like the "fate points" in Arcanum, I assume.
  • Level cap 10 is not set in stone... That would be great. Only one level will get you 5th level spells and lots of class features for rangers, rogues, bards, barbarians, the extra attack for a fighter... and Lvl 12 gives you one ASI/feat more for single-class characters. I understand that would add a lot of work for features that you could only use in the endgame (I assume) but It would be great to have them.
  • Great that they´re going to take into account "utility" spells (usually not combat-related) like "friends"
  • They tweaked some range and area of some spells because they are "working with a specific top-down camera". We´ll have to see about that. (BTW, genuinely surprised that @SorcererVictor did not acknowledge this fact before me. I thought this is something that could definitely grab his attention =) )
  • They´re working in more and more reactions, like spells or the protection fighting style. Cool.







Originally Posted by Sequenze
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Very cool. It is interesting that the level cap isn’t set in stone. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for lvl 12.

Yes.. that is really big news. Last I heard it was capped at level 10. I would welcome more levels.

Also, he mentioned that the team had discussed the wish spell. That's a 9th level spell... Makes one wonder 😊


Sven stated in a podcast interview that they want to use the wish spell, for RP purposes. (The wish spell could cure Vampirism, for instance, so it could be tied to Asterion, maybe?)

https://kotaku.com/the-ranger-class-is-getting-some-changes-in-d-d-and-ba-1835659585
Originally Posted by Rezeki
I wonder if they're thinking about making a butt ton of expansions instead of a whole separate game. So it'd just be a DLC that's actually an entirely new campaign of similar length. I dunno, it seems like they're starting to realize that this game is bigger than they thought it was. Which is awesome haha.


I´m praying for an Eberron DLC with Artificers, firearms, and warforged *-*



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Originally Posted by kanisatha
The guy talked a lot about "keeping things moving along" and "not breaking the flow" in combat. Hahaha. Made me laugh out loud. Seemed rather ridiculous an expectation to have given that TB combat by definition does NOT keep things moving along and DOES break the flow.

It sounds great. Way better than RtwP

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Originally Posted by _Vic_

Level cap 10 is not set in stone... That would be great. Only one level will get you 5th level spells and lots of class features for rangers, rogues, bards, barbarians, the extra attack for a fighter... and Lvl 12 gives you one ASI/feat more for single-class characters. I understand that would add a lot of work for features that you could only use in the endgame (I assume) but It would be great to have them.

(...)

They tweaked some range and area of some spells because they are "working with a specific top-down camera". We´ll have to see about that. (BTW, genuinely surprised that @SorcererVictor did not acknowledge this fact before me. I thought this is something that could definitely grab his attention =) )


I in the past said to raise to 11/12 and maintain my opinion, BUT i was wrong when i said that lv 10 is too low. lv 10 on 5e is not like lv 10 on 2e or on 3.5e.

Strahd von Zarovich on 2e was a fu***** lv 16 necromancer. On 5e, he is a 9th level caster. The worst thing that he can do is to cast a single cloudkill which is far less deadly on 5e. While on 2e, he capable of launching tier 8 magic and with far nastier magical abilities, require at least a +2 weapon to do damage on him and magical weapons are rare on Barovia. Contingency, clone, finger of death, antimagic shell, limited Wish, force cage, teleport and so on. All nasty spells which in the hands of a good DM can easily end a mid to high level party. And in adition to this spells, he had really nasty abilities. He could try to charm a party member and the party member has -4 penalty, could summon hordes of undeads buffed and harder to turn, and only reaching him with his nasty traps was insane.

His stats from the book Ravenloft - Domains of Dread - Page 95.

[Linked Image]

Everything is scaled down on 5e. A lv 10 party on 5e can fight a ancient vampire lord of his demiplane. A lv 15 party has little chances of wining against him on 2e.

Keep in mind that leveling up past lv 10 on 2e takes a very long time(to reach lv 10 on bg2 a sorc needs 250,000 XP. To reach lv 12, he needs 750,000). On SoA(not confuse with BG2:EE), a Thief could reach lv 23, a fighter, lv 19 while a mage lv 16 https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Experience_Tables

This is a rule which IMO makes perfectly sense. I mean, pathfinder 1e had the starting age of your char depending on your class with more complex classes starting at older age. If takes more time to become a lv 1 wizard, why would't take more time to become a lv 10?

--------------------------------

As for the range, i was already expecting it, except by ToEE, i don't know any game where P&P range = in game range. But since i din't saw a magic focused gameplay, i decided to wait until judge.

I really wanna see a warlock with repealing blast and fall damage.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 09/07/20 05:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by kanisatha

Don't see how you can keep things moving along and have 'flow' with TB combat, but more power to Larian for thinking that they can! And as someone who hates TB combat precisely because of how ridiculously, tediously slow and clunky it is, I'd be very happy if they somehow manage to come up with such a miracle.


Have you ever played pen and paper, or better yet, DM’d? Maintaining flow is a huge part of keeping turn based games engaging.

In a video game, a lot of this has to do with presentation. You want actions to feel quick and snappy in order to keep combat from dragging too much and feeling clunky. But design also plays a part. As said in this interview, if every enemy action was interrupted with a prompt to the player asking if and what reaction they wanted to use, this would feel disjointed and break the pacing and flow of the turn based system.

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About the flow, does a DM let as time as they want to its players to take decisions ?
Real question, I never tried... But in what I watched, it looked more like "real time with time slowing down" than a real turn base with totally frozen screens.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
About the flow, does a DM let as time as they want to its players to take decisions ?
Real question, I never tried... But in what I watched, it looked more like "real time with time slowing down" than a real turn base with totally frozen screens.


I’ve DM’d a lot in my life but I don’t think I’ve ever had a situation where one player was taking so long to decide their action that I had to compel them to pick up the pace. I’ve had the entire party take a few minutes to collaborate with each other on a strategy, but that is what you want to encourage in table top because that is where a lot of the fun is derived from. Also, in a turn based game where each player only has one character, they are typically thinking of their next action while they are waiting for their turn, so by the time that arrives they’ve already made a decision.

The DM is a sort of host or MC, and it is their job to establish pacing and rhythm. There are ways to do this implicitly. For one, during combat I tend to stand up. This simple act implies urgency that I’m sure my players pick up on at least subconsciously. Two, I shorten and punctuate my language. I roll the dice quickly as soon as an action is declared and right after it is resolved I turn to the next player and say “You’re up, what are you doing?” I also delegate as much work as I can to players, so each person is responsible for looking something up when I ask, which means less time spent by the party waiting on me to continue acting as narrator.

These are all examples as to how design and presentation impact turn based flow, but I have also secretly behind the scenes adjusted encounters if I felt combat was dragging a bit. Players want a challenge, but it first and foremost has to be fun and engaging.

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Thanks for the answer, that looks like what I saw and imagine.

So what about the idea of real time with time slowing down ? Doesn't it fit better to your intentions if you would bring them in a video game ?
(Considering that you choose the number of characters you're playing, MP or SP)

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Thanks for the answer, that looks like what I saw and imagine.

So what about the idea of real time with time slowing down ? Doesn't it fit better to your intentions if you would bring them in a video game ?
(Considering that you choose the number of characters you're playing, MP or SP)


RtwP slowdown would absolutely be the better choice if engendering a sense of urgency was Larian's primary objective, but this isn't their primary objective. Larian is trying to do exactly what BG1 did, recreate the full rules of Dungeons and Dragons as closely as possible in a video game. Where most of the licensed games are loosely inspired by D&D, or only include a fraction of the classes, races, and spells, Larian is doing what Bioware did and trying to include everything, all of the many myriad of options, within the scope of whatever the level cap happens to be.

The first Baldur's Gate used the old AD&D2.5 rules. This system is well suited to RtwP because it was a far more rudimentary game. In combat, you were mostly either attacking or casting a spell on your turn. It was pretty straight forward.

5th Edition is a completely different beast. I'll give an example using my favorite character, a multiclass monk / sorcerer.

I roll initiative well and start first. I can use two attacks in one action, so I do so. Then, I decide to use some of my ki points to execute Flurry of Blows as a bonus action, allowing me to attack two more times. After this, I decide as a special action that one of my unarmed strikes which already connected was actually a Stunning Fist, so I spend more ki to try and stun my opponent. My opponent makes his saving throw, avoiding being stunned. Now it is his turn and he is mad. He swings at me with his axe. He rolls well, it is a hit. Now I have the spell Shield prepared. Shield provides a brief 5 point bonus to my armor class until the start of my next turn, and is cast as a reaction upon getting hit. But, I only have 1 spell slot left, a 3rd level one at that, and I want to use this to teleport away with Thunder Step on my next turn, not use it to cast the 1st level spell shield. I have plenty of hit points, so I decide to take the blow, banking on him not hitting me again with his next attack. He swings again and the dice do not favor me, he connects. This time I decide I can't eat another axe to the face, so I begrudgingly throw up my shield, expending my last spell slot to avoid the attack but ruining my plans to teleport safely away, forcing me to come up with a plan B.

How would you faithfully translate all of this into real time with pause? And this is just one round of combat with one build. There are so many actions, reactions, bonus actions and special actions in 5th edition, and trying to reimagine all of these to work in a real time system that is still somehow faithful to the source material is a nightmare charlie foxtrot of a task. Nope. No thanks.

The heart of what makes a Baldur's Gate game a Baldur's Gate game is not characters, or the specific story, or even the city of Baldur's Gate. It is the faithful and near complete reproduction of D&D rules in a video game. There is more to it than just that, obviously, but that is the core you start from, and I think Larian is doing an impressive job of it, so far.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Dagless
Originally Posted by kanisatha
The guy talked a lot about "keeping things moving along" and "not breaking the flow" in combat. Hahaha. Made me laugh out loud. Seemed rather ridiculous an expectation to have given that TB combat by definition does NOT keep things moving along and DOES break the flow.


Depends how fast you can make decisions. Get Gud scrub!

wink

But isn't that exactly what many TB fans claim is bad about RTwP and why they want TB? To be able to take as many hours as they want to do one action? wink

Don't see how you can keep things moving along and have 'flow' with TB combat, but more power to Larian for thinking that they can! And as someone who hates TB combat precisely because of how ridiculously, tediously slow and clunky it is, I'd be very happy if they somehow manage to come up with such a miracle.


I think it’s more about having complete control over what everyone is doing, and not having to worry about characters charging forward and attacking the wrong enemy, wasting their best spell or whatever. Some of that can be managed with behaviors and scripts, but not all of it.

Real time is great for blasting through simple fights, but the more challenging the fight, the more you have to use the pause and micromanage your party anyway. Which is usually fine, but can feel like you are fighting the AI.

Larian are making a game with more complex environments, objects to interact with, and options for both the player and enemy to use that to their advantage. IMO the more of all that they have the more frustrating it would be trying to control it with real time with pause.

It doesn’t mean you always have to do something fancy or agonize over every more. In both DOS and XCom games, I’m usually thinking about options as the enemies move and take my turns pretty quickly unless I get into trouble and have to stop to think about it. It’s probably not optimal, but it’s faster than watching Sven play who explains everything he’s doing.

In the DOS games I spent waaayyy more time managing my bloody inventory than in combat anyway. I think there will be be a lot less of all that in BG3 though.

I’m actually fine with either combat system, but for what Larian are trying to do, turn based just makes more sense to me.


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Originally Posted by Warlocke

How would you faithfully translate all of this into real time with pause? And this is just one round of combat with one build. There are so many actions, reactions, bonus actions and special actions in 5th edition, and trying to reimagine all of these to work in a real time system that is still somehow faithful to the source material is a nightmare charlie foxtrot of a task. Nope. No thanks.


Exactly. This is spot on. Anyone who has played DnD5E knows this. Unfortunately, you are trying to reason with the obsessive "fans" with entitlement issues. They will never accept that it is a TB game. They FEEL that its unfair for them not to GET the game they WANT. Completely ignoring the fact that its not their game, they are free not to purchase it, and life is inherently unfair. That said +1 for the attempt to get these inbred morons to accept reality.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Thanks for the answer, that looks like what I saw and imagine.

So what about the idea of real time with time slowing down ? Doesn't it fit better to your intentions if you would bring them in a video game ?
(Considering that you choose the number of characters you're playing, MP or SP)


RtwP slowdown would absolutely be the better choice if engendering a sense of urgency was Larian's primary objective, but this isn't their primary objective. Larian is trying to do exactly what BG1 did, recreate the full rules of Dungeons and Dragons as closely as possible in a video game. Where most of the licensed games are loosely inspired by D&D, or only include a fraction of the classes, races, and spells, Larian is doing what Bioware did and trying to include everything, all of the many myriad of options, within the scope of whatever the level cap happens to be.

The first Baldur's Gate used the old AD&D2.5 rules. This system is well suited to RtwP because it was a far more rudimentary game. In combat, you were mostly either attacking or casting a spell on your turn. It was pretty straight forward.

5th Edition is a completely different beast. I'll give an example using my favorite character, a multiclass monk / sorcerer.

I roll initiative well and start first. I can use two attacks in one action, so I do so. Then, I decide to use some of my ki points to execute Flurry of Blows as a bonus action, allowing me to attack two more times. After this, I decide as a special action that one of my unarmed strikes which already connected was actually a Stunning Fist, so I spend more ki to try and stun my opponent. My opponent makes his saving throw, avoiding being stunned. Now it is his turn and he is mad. He swings at me with his axe. He rolls well, it is a hit. Now I have the spell Shield prepared. Shield provides a brief 5 point bonus to my armor class until the start of my next turn, and is cast as a reaction upon getting hit. But, I only have 1 spell slot left, a 3rd level one at that, and I want to use this to teleport away with Thunder Step on my next turn, not use it to cast the 1st level spell shield. I have plenty of hit points, so I decide to take the blow, banking on him not hitting me again with his next attack. He swings again and the dice do not favor me, he connects. This time I decide I can't eat another axe to the face, so I begrudgingly throw up my shield, expending my last spell slot to avoid the attack but ruining my plans to teleport safely away, forcing me to come up with a plan B.

How would you faithfully translate all of this into real time with pause? And this is just one round of combat with one build. There are so many actions, reactions, bonus actions and special actions in 5th edition, and trying to reimagine all of these to work in a real time system that is still somehow faithful to the source material is a nightmare charlie foxtrot of a task. Nope. No thanks.

The heart of what makes a Baldur's Gate game a Baldur's Gate game is not characters, or the specific story, or even the city of Baldur's Gate. It is the faithful and near complete reproduction of D&D rules in a video game. There is more to it than just that, obviously, but that is the core you start from, and I think Larian is doing an impressive job of it, so far.


I really respect that to you, the accuracy of old rules are what makes BG.
That's the core as you said, and that's one of the things that gives me the feeling I have with the games...
I care way less about the D&D rules (old or news) than about the way you play Baldur's Gate because I'm a video game player, not a PnP player.
But anyway we don't care, that's just my opinion and I asked to understand yours.

I hope you're right with the situation you describe, but it doesn't really suits to the TB mecanics according to me.
If I'm not wrong, you are using actions (or reactions/bonus action, I don't have the right rules word) during the ennemy's turn... and that's not what TB seems to be in video games.

(I have to admit that maybe I didn't understood everything in the video I saw. I can +- easily understand written EN but it's a little bit more complicated with voices so maybe I missed specific "new TB mecanics")

I like TB games but I hope we'll have the feelings of "clash between two sides, a flurry of weapon swings, feints, parries, footwork, and spellcasting" and "the chaos of combat"... (quoted from D&D rules).
That's what interrests me in Baldur's Gate game combats and I never had this feelings with any TB game.

Edit : I think I got something... Improved TB with RT animations for everyone grin
Something like BG finally, combat animations were sometimes "cosmetics".
The feeling of a real (time) combat with the TB mecanics.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 09/07/20 11:40 AM.
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Guys, you know where the pinned topic is. And having thoroughly derailed this topic with yet another TB/RTwP debate it is already becoming decidedly impolite, which is why we try to keep this particular subject contained.


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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by kanisatha

Don't see how you can keep things moving along and have 'flow' with TB combat, but more power to Larian for thinking that they can! And as someone who hates TB combat precisely because of how ridiculously, tediously slow and clunky it is, I'd be very happy if they somehow manage to come up with such a miracle.


Have you ever played pen and paper, or better yet, DM’d? Maintaining flow is a huge part of keeping turn based games engaging.


Don't patronize me. I'm sure I was playing PnP D&D before you were born.

Originally Posted by Warlocke
In a video game, a lot of this has to do with presentation. You want actions to feel quick and snappy in order to keep combat from dragging too much and feeling clunky. But design also plays a part. As said in this interview, if every enemy action was interrupted with a prompt to the player asking if and what reaction they wanted to use, this would feel disjointed and break the pacing and flow of the turn based system.

By definition TB combat breaks the flow of combat. To talk about pacing and flow in TB systems is an oxymoron.

I actually agree that 5e D&D is probably better suited to a TB system. But whether PnP or videogame, there is no flow to TB combat. It is stop-start-stop-start.

Originally Posted by Warlocke
The heart of what makes a Baldur's Gate game a Baldur's Gate game is not characters, or the specific story, or even the city of Baldur's Gate. It is the faithful and near complete reproduction of D&D rules in a video game.

This is just silly. The story, storytelling, characters, character development, and lore are what make it Baldur's Gate, what make any game a true RPG. The mechanics of the game are decidedly secondary.

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Originally Posted by vometia
Guys, you know where the pinned topic is. And having thoroughly derailed this topic with yet another TB/RTwP debate it is already becoming decidedly impolite, which is why we try to keep this particular subject contained.

So then we are not allowed to talk about the combat system of the game anywhere other than that one thread? There was no TB/RTwP "debate" in my post. I was purely discussing a potential problem with the combat system, namely its slowness, something the developer himself had brought up in this interview and was talking about ways to try and speed up the combat. How is that not on topic here?

If certain other people try to turn things into a TB/RTwP debate because they want to shut down anyone critiquing the game, I can't do anything about that.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Don't patronize me. I'm sure I was playing PnP D&D before you were born.

Congrats, you win the topic. Now please take further discussion to the appropriate place and stop bickering. Thank you.


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