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I adored Divine Divinity. And the name cracked me up. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

But it sounds like the skill point system is wonky. I mean.. the *idea* is wonderful! What a great way to specialize a character! The implementation is poor. You should be able to have enough skill points to do a few things.

IMO.. an example:

As a warrior, I should be able to completely specialize in a couple of weapons type. I mean sheesh.. I'm a warrior! Or, I should be able to completely and utterly specialize in one weapon type, like swords. I should have enough skill points to make people shudder in fear when I get near a sword.

Or as a mage. I love playing mages! I should be able to specialize in at *least* two damage spells, completely. Three or four makes more sense though. And I should have enough skill points left over to at least grab a handful of other spells and be proficient enough in them so that they are useful to me.

As it stands (and please correct me if i'm wrong, 'cause obviously i don't have the game.. i'm only going on what i've heard so far on this and other boards), it is difficult to even completely specialize in one thing, let alone a few. And to do that and then get a few of the other useful skills is not possible.

Well.. please please PLEASE fix this! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

The inventory 'problem'? Who *cares*.. I don't mind clicking on different tabs to see my inventory! In my mind the skill points and skill system is a brilliant idea that is in sore need of tweaking to make it useful. It would be the game killer for me.

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Actually, you *can* specialize now in one or two weapons or spells. The problem is, you don't have many skill points left over to do pretty much anything save the the "necessity" skills. The ability to experiment is missing; and some of the skills are badly in need of tweaking. Pickpocketing is outrageously powerful. Lockpicking doesn't work.

But the game is extremely good. At this point, it's a matter largely of balance, and I suspect Larian will get the mix right. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Actually, you *can* specialize now in one or two weapons or spells. The problem is, you don't have many skill points left over to do pretty much anything save the the "necessity" skills. The ability to experiment is missing; and some of the skills are badly in need of tweaking. Pickpocketing is outrageously powerful. Lockpicking doesn't work.

But the game is extremely good. At this point, it's a matter largely of balance, and I suspect Larian will get the mix right. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


agreed. lockpicking just doesn't work well.

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Actually, you *can* specialize now in one or two weapons or spells. The problem is, you don't have many skill points left over to do pretty much anything save the the "necessity" skills. The ability to experiment is missing; and some of the skills are badly in need of tweaking. Pickpocketing is outrageously powerful. Lockpicking doesn't work.

But the game is extremely good. At this point, it's a matter largely of balance, and I suspect Larian will get the mix right. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Well here's my level 28 warrior's skills (purely experimental because i'm bored dying to a rather hard boss in Act 4 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> *sniffle*):

Warrior => Two handed weapon => Slashing => Accuracy 6, Damage 6, Critcal Hit 5, Deathblow 5. (I would add accuracy to 10 (and damage) but I have no money left, unlearnt too many skills <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />)

Wizard => Defensive Magic (I believe) => Party => Healing 2.

Wizard => Shaman Magic (Forgot exact name) => Lightning Storm 5 (i'm experimenting atm with skills).

Warrior => Defensive Skills (Again I don't know exact names) => Armour Usage 5

Warrior => Defensive Skills => Evading 5.

Now, that's all up to level 28 i've enough points to add to. To me, that really isn't "Specialising". If I removed the wizard magic, I could perhaps max out 2 damage forms with two handed weapons (slashing and crushing perhaps), but that's it.

Now, don't take this as whining, i'm simply stating a fact that Beyond Divinity succeeds at being different from all other RPG's, but for the wrong reasons. All other RPG's i've played allow you to at least specialise in a weapon type (i.e. longsword) and a melee style (one or two handed fighting). A warrior is a master of melee... yet all I succeed in being is an evasive two handed sword holder who can cast sparks and heal the ever-in-need-of-health Death Knight.

I've grown to like the skill system (a lot), but I agree that more skill points are needed.

I can manage fine without (Except this one enemy, who is extremely hard), so it doesn't ruin Beyond Divinity (as you said), I just feel it'd be more fun to have more to play with. I feel too withstrained and that in itself is linear in a sense.









====== Monkeh see, Monkeh do.
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Thank you, that was the sort of thing I was looking for. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Ok.. so yup, I wouldn't be a happy camper. When a melee class or a mage can't specialize even in their own field except very minimally, it would indeed suck a lot of fun out of the game. I absolutely love the idea of the skill system, I just wish you got more points to work with.

How about the idea of trainers in the game? A few folks in town that can either:

1. For a price, 'teach' you skill points. You can buy skill points straight up. For instance: You chat with someone to buy a skill point. Your interface comes up, and dependent on the skill point you are buying, the cost goes up or down. Buying that second skill point is less expensive, buying the fifth is much more so expensive. Buying into a new skill altogether should also be prett pricey imo.

or...

2. Teach you skills outright for a price. Of course, that would mean a lot of trainers, which imo would be cool (ala some older RPGs like M&M where you had to hunt down the right trainer), and they probably wouldn't want to patch *that* sort of thing in.

But anyways.. it would be nice to have a way in game of getting more skill points. At least to me, the skill points would be a critical game function, and having it weak and feeble makes me sad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

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No argument, MonkehmaN. And I don't think this means we're asking too much of the third level of difficulty in the game. We just want to have enough points left over to try different things which aren't essential to a character's development.

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1. For a price, 'teach' you skill points. You can buy skill points straight up. For instance: You chat with someone to buy a skill point. Your interface comes up, and dependent on the skill point you are buying, the cost goes up or down. Buying that second skill point is less expensive, buying the fifth is much more so expensive. Buying into a new skill altogether should also be prett pricey imo.

or...


Well I quite like the idea of perhaps buying additional skill points, much the same as we already pay to unlearn kills. Maybe we could (as you say) go to a trainer who sells skill points for a set fee. It would also give people who are bored of dying (like me, but I love the challenge) an insentive to go to the Battlefields and earn gold in the dungeons. Just ideas anyhow.

With my above stats, the only enemies i've had problems with are basically magic users (earth golems earthquake, a particular enemy later who casts acid rain etc) or multiple lvl 30 enemies hitting at the same time. So skill points really don't mean you can't progress... it's just more fun to have more imo. Sorry to mention another game but > I like Morrowind's system of buying points in a skill. I.E: Pay 2000 gold to earn a point in longsword skill. It made if feel good to earn enough gold to pay for it.

Beyond Divinity really isn't reliant on Skills, but there's no way near the customisation ability of Divine Divinity. The game feels linear because I can't experiment.

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No argument, MonkehmaN. And I don't think this means we're asking too much of the third level of difficulty in the game. We just want to have enough points left over to try different things which aren't essential to a character's development.




Exactly my thoughts, I feel I can't try anything out because by the time i've adjusted 2 skills (unlearnt and re-added), i've wasted over 50,000 gold. It's a bit much when I can't earn much gold now. I've already cleaned out most dungeons in BF, (cant even go there because of a bug now) and there's not much story left, so i'm pretty stuck. Even 1 more point every 2 or 4 levels would be enough.


====== Monkeh see, Monkeh do.
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I think the skillpoints should be doubled. Instead of one per level, characters should get two per level. If every true "skill", like wielding a two-handed sword, is going to be broken down into 5 phony sub-skills, then players deserve enough skill points so that they can effectively use every two-handed sword they come across in the game, not just the ones that are either slashing OR elemental damage OR shadow damage... y'all get the gist.

Besides which, players really need the ability to have at least a couple of non-combat skills like alchemy, repair, etc. There is absolutely no reason to brag about "Over 290 Skills!" when the player won't be able to use more than a couple of them. Having skills available isn't much fun if you can't actually use the danged things.


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I think the skillpoints should be doubled. Instead of one per level, characters should get two per level. If every true "skill", like wielding a two-handed sword, is going to be broken down into 5 phony sub-skills, then players deserve enough skill points so that they can effectively use every two-handed sword they come across in the game, not just the ones that are either slashing OR elemental damage OR shadow damage... y'all get the gist.

Besides which, players really need the ability to have at least a couple of non-combat skills like alchemy, repair, etc. There is absolutely no reason to brag about "Over 290 Skills!" when the player won't be able to use more than a couple of them. Having skills available isn't much fun if you can't actually use the danged things.



Well, I think you just summed it up a lot better than I did. Maybe I am just too used to other RPG's. I really am not enjoying BD anymore though, reasons are below... essentially it all revolves around skill points.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

I'm really tempted to quit BD and just throw it out my window. I'm totally stuck because of bugs AGAIN. I'm in Act 4, i'm fighting a very hard enemy... and I can't hit him. Now, normally i'd go boost my accuracy with two handed weapons... but no, I can't. Why? Because if I go to battlefields it locks me in and I cant warp back out. I just respawn in battlefields again.

Why is this bad? Well, I cant sell stuff, so I cant get money, so I cant forget a skill, so I cant recycle skill points, so I cant add to my two weapon fighting, so I cant hit the enemy and all in all, I cant advance anymore because my pots run out too fast fighting said creature. Over a week of playing the game only to hit a bug which stops me completing it. To say im a bit upset is an understatment, i'm literally 5minutes off completing it!

Anyhow, yes we need more skill points. The cost to unlearn is ABSURD at level 29, it cost me 80,000 to unlearn two skill tree's.

Just needed to vent a bit there.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohh.gif" alt="" />

*sigh*



====== Monkeh see, Monkeh do.
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I've been wondering what was wrong with BD, and I think you've more or less summed it up -- there's really little diversity as far as what your character can do. In DD, I played through like 4 or 5 times, with different builds each time -- a backstab specialist, a ranger, a big heavy sword guy and a mage, once I got enough equipment to transfer to make starting as a mage effective at all. There were also more levels to play with, making you all around more robust.

Now, with two characters splitting the meager XP, you really stay lousy. Your stats are low, because you've had to split them into constitution and speed just to stay alive, so you can equip most of the equipment you find, if you focus on strength OR dex -- not both. Skill points are stingy, and utility skills (passives, the world crushingly huge Sharpen and Pickpocket skills, the money factory Convert Arrow skills) are required, meaning you just don't have a lot of money for FUN skills, like spells.

Money hasn't been a problem for me so far, and there's always exploitation to make sure you have enough -- get a few levels in Convert arrows to a costly type, like Splintering, and go nuts -- even an 8% return on your 1 gp/arrow investment nets you 150/arrow -- that's 1200 for every 100 you spend on arrows. But even being covered in the best equipment money can buy doesn't buy off the fact that my characters can't *DO* anything. They click on monsters and make them die. Sometimes, one of them switches to a bow while the other tanks. Then the clicking continues. It'd be like Diablo, but even warrior types in Diablo could *DO* something in combat to make it fun.

DD had combat skills that were fun, like throwing spears, poisoning weapons, elemental arrows, etc. etc. etc. BD has none of those things, meaning that if you go combat (which you'll have to, since mana is scarce), you're playing "Click the interesting looking monster: The game." By 13th level (where I am now, in act 2), characters should at least get a feel for what they'll be able to do. I've had that since level 1 -- click monsters.

I think I'll probably hang onto my save game, and wait for some serious balance tweaks... but how this game got this far without a comparison to DD is beyond me.


You will rue the day you opposed me! Begin your rueing! I'll just... sit over here... and watch.

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