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Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Maximuuus] #674642
10/09/20 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus


No one had an experience with a D&D campaign ?
I.E Descent into Arvernus is designed for 4 to 6 players. What are the difference when you DM it for 4 or 6 friends ? Is that only a question of one or two more monsters in encounters ? Something else ?


I've played PnP with 4-8 characters 1, 2nd and 3.5 but not 5th ed. But looking through Avernus it strikes me as module that favors 1) negotiating and 2) sneaking. Any party that tried direct assault would die pretty quickly.

The campaigns I ran for 4 people had more puzzles and riddles than anything else. The thief got more "stage time" than anyone else "checking for traps and secret doors . . ."

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: KillerRabbit] #674645
10/09/20 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
But looking through Avernus it strikes me as module that favors 1) negotiating and 2) sneaking. Any party that tried direct assault would die pretty quickly.


1) yes 2) definetly

Im DMing Avernus right now and my party has a "we'll-sneak-but-if-it-doesn't-work-we'll-kill-them-all" approach and so far so good 🙄

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Aeridyne] #674691
11/09/20 12:37 AM
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Again I say 5 as standard/unmodded. It works with WoW and PoE series.

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Aeridyne] #674694
11/09/20 12:53 AM
11/09/20 12:53 AM
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As confirmed in the in the Q&A of Community Update 6:

Quote
Modding will be supported, but not before 1.0, not during EA. Again, we really need to focus on working with feedback and creating the game.


Early Access will allow you to control a main character with 3 companions.
This will not change during the entirety of Early Access. (Approximately a year)

Mod support will be worked on after the game is officially released sometime in late 2021.
At that point someone will likely create a Mod to support the control of more characters than the game is balanced for.

If the control of 6 characters is a deal breaker for you then I would avoid playing Early Access.

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Vlad the Impaler] #674700
11/09/20 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Vlad the Impaler
The more I read the comments in the forum the more I get the impression that Larian is basically just going to put D&D skins on a different game so it will look like D&D, but it won't really play or feel like D&D. I guess it's a good thing I can still play BG & BG2.


From--

Tyranny of Dragons: "The ideal party size is four characters."
Rise of Tiamat: "Four characters is the ideal party size."
Tomb of Annihilation: "This adventure is designed to begin with a party of four to six 1st-level characters"
Storm Kings Thunder: "Storm King's Thunder is a DUNGEONS & DRAGONS adventure for four to six player characters."
Curse of Stradh: "Curse of Strahd is a story of gothic horror, presented here as a DUNGEONS & DRAGONS roleplaying game adventure for a party of four to six adventurers of levels 1-10."
Baldur's Gate- Descent into Avernus: "DESIGNED FOR AN ADVENTURING PARTY OF four to six 1st-level characters"
Etc...

You occasionally see 3-7 recommended for tournament type adventure play. But, no matter how you slice it, the adventures that make up the pillars of 5e were designed for play in the 4-6 level range.

BG3 almost certainly went with four because that's what the Divinity Engine was already optimized for, but no one can legitimately propose that a 4 party 5e game won't feel like D&D. 5e party balance just isn't the same as 2e party balance.

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Aeridyne] #674708
11/09/20 05:13 AM
11/09/20 05:13 AM
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@Maximuus

About your question on how they will handle difficulty in BG3, they´re answered that in the Community update.



Quote
Will difficulty choices affect more than just enemy health and damage? e.g. increasing the DC on some rolls while exploring the world?
Yes there are many features planned for different difficulty levels, which we’ll go over in a future update - but EA isn’t launching with difficulty choices, as we prioritize everything you need to have an enjoyable experience.


If they are handling difficulty level adding more difficult encounters, not just adding hp and damage to pre-existing creatures the modders of the hypotetical 6-man-party mod would have their work easier if you have access to the tools that allow the game engine to change encounters depending on your difficulty (and if you can change it midgame) or much more difficult if you have to balance the encounters for every character more you add in every difficulty mode...

As always, a lot of "ifs" We still have to wait until we have the modding tools. That would be after the EA, in an unknown date, according to the Community update.

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: _Vic_] #674751
11/09/20 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
@Maximuus

About your question on how they will handle difficulty in BG3, they´re answered that in the Community update.



Quote
Will difficulty choices affect more than just enemy health and damage? e.g. increasing the DC on some rolls while exploring the world?
Yes there are many features planned for different difficulty levels, which we’ll go over in a future update - but EA isn’t launching with difficulty choices, as we prioritize everything you need to have an enjoyable experience.


If they are handling difficulty level adding more difficult encounters, not just adding hp and damage to pre-existing creatures the modders of the hypotetical 6-man-party mod would have their work easier if you have access to the tools that allow the game engine to change encounters depending on your difficulty (and if you can change it midgame) or much more difficult if you have to balance the encounters for every character more you add in every difficulty mode...

As always, a lot of "ifs" We still have to wait until we have the modding tools. That would be after the EA, in an unknown date, according to the Community update.


We'll have to wait and see how it works... lots of "if" actually as you said. One thing is not an "if" : I'll ask for an official party of 6 until the end but of course in a positive way and trying to find solutions (solutions from a random player that is not a video game developper).

I don't really like mods. I like playing the official version of a game and I'll try to convince Larian that this could be a great improvement for their Baldur's Gate game(s).

Wait and see on that point. Let's play the game first.


Last edited by Maximuuus; 11/09/20 02:55 PM.
Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Aeridyne] #674816
12/09/20 05:55 AM
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^ Agree completely

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Maximuuus] #674817
12/09/20 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus

We'll have to wait and see how it works... lots of "if" actually as you said. One thing is not an "if" : I'll ask for an official party of 6 until the end but of course in a positive way and trying to find solutions (solutions from a random player that is not a video game developper).

I don't really like mods. I like playing the official version of a game and I'll try to convince Larian that this could be a great improvement for their Baldur's Gate game(s).

Wait and see on that point. Let's play the game first.



I agree in that yes there are a lot of ifs, however he did say in his own words in an interview that a mod would be "easy". So, if they added it it might not be too terribly hard to do. How to balance that is up to them but doesn't have to be rocket science imo. More enemies generally works well. (Which would simultaneously make level progression about the same.)

I'll keep politely asking for 6 as well. They know a lot of people want it. Those people might not be the EA players but they WILL be paying customers all the same. I want to play the finished game so I wont be playing EA. Like Maximuuus I don't really like mods either. I like options being in the core game itself, mods tend to be glitchy or have other downsides.

Also while it's cool they added those streaming features, for the vast majority of people who aren't streamers.... that's just a feature no one is ever going to use that who knows how much effort and time went in to.

Last edited by Aeridyne; 12/09/20 06:08 AM.
Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Aeridyne] #674819
12/09/20 06:24 AM
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Neither adding the streaming feature nor increasing the party limit are things that will take a lot of time. What would potentially take a lot of time is rebalancing every encounter for a larger party.

I personally would love a 6 character party, so it would be great for me if they did that.

XCom has a 6 soldier squad, sometimes even 7 if you have a guest character, and that always felt like a good number to me.

Last edited by Warlocke; 12/09/20 06:25 AM.
Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Aeridyne] #674827
12/09/20 10:10 AM
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It´s far easier to add more enemies to the pod in random generated maps like in Xcom tho.

Sven stated in the interview that the game engine and UI will support 6 characters and we would have mooding tools whenever, but the thing is just adding more characters to the party is not enough. You have to be sure that the dialogues, flags and banters will fire accordingly, the characters do not get stuck in cinematics and possibly tweak the enemy encounters so you do not overwhelm any enemy you find.

Right now we know nothings so.. lots of ifs he he.

At least if they´re going to add more enemies and more difficult encounters in the harder modes maybe you can mod the game to have 6 characters and play in veteran or nightmare and the game would be challenging. Still the question if the extra characters would add something to dialogues and cinematics too.


Last edited by _Vic_; 12/09/20 10:11 AM.
Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: _Vic_] #674836
12/09/20 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Still the question if the extra characters would add something to dialogues and cinematics too.

I don't see why this would be the case at all. Why would such things as dialogue and cinematics be dependent on party size? They are things that should be dependent only on each individual character.

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: kanisatha] #674857
12/09/20 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by _Vic_
Still the question if the extra characters would add something to dialogues and cinematics too.

I don't see why this would be the case at all. Why would such things as dialogue and cinematics be dependent on party size? They are things that should be dependent only on each individual character.


Good question. We don't really have enough information available to us to answer it. It depends on 1) how they are triggering the banters and conversations and 2) how they have structured those conversations. In BG2 dialogues were based on a timer -- which gave the conversations a spontaneous feel "hey here we are in the street, it just occurred to me" but frustrated people who could never get to the end of the romances because they finished the game so quickly.

SoD used ground triggers -- which made sure that all dialogues fired and eliminated the need to keep the game running just to fire a dialogue but that system had the unintended consequence of lowering the replay value of the game. "Now when I step here, I have this conversation -- same story each time" ToB used a combination of event triggers and timers which was a better than just ground triggers but also made some dialogues predictable. In the infinity engine the number of characters didn't matter -- just which NPCs were present.

I dunno what system BG3 is going to use but if the trigger is linked to party formation or designed to start a specific four way conversation and five people are present that could, maybe, possibly cause problems. It all comes down to if / then statements and how they are designed. So this formation could cause problems. If astarian (player) [variable] showheart [variable] Wyll [variable] Lae'zel then [script var1 = var] + [script var2 = var] + [script var3 = var] + [script var = var ] = [script party disagreement] . NPC 5 wouldn't be included in the formula.

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: KillerRabbit] #674871
12/09/20 10:17 PM
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Well, personally, I think with this type of game 4 characters is great. I think 5 would be great as well, but I understand why the developers went with 4--the more characters, the more permutations, etc.

Whether it be a CRPG or a table-top setting, though, I think more than 5 is too many. I say this because beyond 5, the party seems less connected (just feels less "cozy" and unified...personal impression) and combat tends to become a little tedious (CRPG) or boring (table-top, where you have to wait so long for your turn to act in combat).

Last edited by Talaverus; 13/09/20 03:01 PM.

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Aeridyne] #715553
24/10/20 06:05 PM
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TBH the amount of different characters you can choose from matters but the max amount of companions within the party straight up doesn't matter after me. Yes, storywise it helps since you can have more interactions in there and between the characters.

But on the mid-maxing side of things it makes it harder. I made 1 run with 6 characters in BG 1&2 , ended up with a 4 man party very quick ^^. Mostly because BG1&2 had a very silly solution for exping in the game lol.

Originally Posted by Aeridyne
Originally Posted by Seraphael
Finally, a smaller party makes the party selection/character build decisions matter more. Larian has got this.



Baldurs Gate I & II had a ton of different party members you could pick up which
And again one more time, just because you CAN get by with a 4 person party you can make the same argument for even smaller parties too until you are only playing the main character and your other party members if any are just uncontrollable NPCs. But would that game be BG? Not really. Would a 4 member party game be BG? Not really. Would a game that doesn't have a plethora of party members to choose from like the previous ones be BG? Not really. But would a game with a 6 character party and lots of different characters to choose from be BG? Well yes it would! Ding ding ding, we have a winner.




Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: virion] #715732
24/10/20 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by virion
TBH the amount of different characters you can choose from matters but the max amount of companions within the party straight up doesn't matter after me. Yes, storywise it helps since you can have more interactions in there and between the characters.

But on the mid-maxing side of things it makes it harder. I made 1 run with 6 characters in BG 1&2 , ended up with a 4 man party very quick ^^. Mostly because BG1&2 had a very silly solution for exping in the game lol.


You mean that the official D&D "exping" system is bad ?
BG allow you to play from 1 to 6 character with this "silly" mecanics wink

Last edited by Maximuuus; 24/10/20 09:39 PM.
Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Aeridyne] #715829
25/10/20 12:12 AM
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A party of six would be the best choice for a number of reasons:

It offers a much greater tactical variety to gameplay though composition.
It offers a much greater social variety to gameplay, also because you can get more different people to hang out so to speak.
The PC (Player Character) will be much less pigeon-holed into certain builds due to what characters you can recruit/have in party.
It will alleviate much of the "miss-frustration" when you have two more potential hits.

I do not believe the added management will be detrimental in the slightest - just look at Wasteland 3! Brand new game with six people to handle and it's smooth and doesn't bog down the game in any way when comparing to DOS1 and 2.

5e adventures normally state four as a minimum number. Anyone who has played or DM'd a group of three for whatever reason can easily testify that it's borderline impossible without seriously re-balancing many things. With four, it can be pretty tight and you really need to tailor the party to a much larger extent, so much so that some players may end up not really playing what they want to play. The sweetspot is really around five to six players which allows rather diverse skillsets, maybe some doubles (which isn't at all bad, double dipping some skills in the party is Very useful).

Having the extremely low number of four with DnD ruleset is mostly a pain which cuts right into fun-time. Larian says it's easy to mod into six? Maybe they should mod it to six themselves, then? I'm very OK with waiting if it takes longer to implement.
Because Larian is used to doing four character parties should not be a reason to go with four. Saying it's because of the nature of how fleshed out the characters are shouldn't be a reason either - and it IS fine if some characters are less fleshed out than others. Not every character will have a massively interesting background or super intricate plotline designed to them.
For some characters, this adventure COULD be their interesting background. "Yeah, back in my younger days, I joined up with the hero who fought the Mindflayers. What a time. What a time..." *sips ale*. This offers at least one character/position of being quite fresh out the factory, so to speak, and will potentially instead be formed much more from what they experience through the game. This, to me, sounds like a very interesting take.

As a closing statement I'd say that I'll even take five character party, although I feel it's not optimal for fun purposes. Just not four. Four is simply too few.

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Aeridyne] #716341
25/10/20 02:29 PM
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While I understand the reasons for preferring a larger party, I can't say I think it would be an improvement in BG3.

EA seems to play OK with a party of four; if you expand the party size, I can see 2 problems related to the turn-based combat being used.

- the number of enemies in encounters would also increase, leading to even longer encounter resolution, when some of them are pretty turgid already. This could, perhaps, be alleviated by using fewer, but more powerful enemies.

- increased party size would exacerbate problems with party characters blocking each other, which you can't resolve because of the limitations of turn-based movement. This is less easy to alleviate, as it would mean re-working the game world to have less choke points, many of which are related to the significantly vertical nature of the game world.

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: etonbears] #716383
25/10/20 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by etonbears
While I understand the reasons for preferring a larger party, I can't say I think it would be an improvement in BG3.

EA seems to play OK with a party of four; if you expand the party size, I can see 2 problems related to the turn-based combat being used.

- the number of enemies in encounters would also increase, leading to even longer encounter resolution, when some of them are pretty turgid already. This could, perhaps, be alleviated by using fewer, but more powerful enemies.

- increased party size would exacerbate problems with party characters blocking each other, which you can't resolve because of the limitations of turn-based movement. This is less easy to alleviate, as it would mean re-working the game world to have less choke points, many of which are related to the significantly vertical nature of the game world.
i am pro having 6 open slots for your party, which then allows the players to decide themselves if they want to roll 4, 6, or even solo. i agree with the two most significant issues that you cited (which you also go on to provide solutions for), as these are also other common critiques that ppl have cited in other places in the forums without even considering the party size - ie. rebalance combat related encounters (id argue using more 5e based rules would help alot here) and the limitations and frustrations that the current combat movement (and overall party movement control using the dos2 'chaining' system) controls present (not considering how the current camera controls can also compound this problem). im not sure how much feedback we can expect larian to take from these forum posts (idk when the last time we heard from larian was) but i do hope that the concerns and suggestions that you posted are relayed to the devs as alot of folks agree with the points you made (outside of the party of 4 choice wink )

Re: SIX CHARACTER PARTY [Re: Aeridyne] #716568
25/10/20 06:20 PM
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I played with a 6 party mod and it worked great right up until the point it failed to launch the grove party. The game is already set up to accommodate 6 party members.

There were some things that would need to fixed

-- party management. A couple of times my toons did a little dance trying to find where to stand
- the default party formation was the bowling pin one
- party inventory, with six people the items got so small I had a hard time seeing them
- minor graphic glitch during conversations where the extra two party members merge into another NPC

But I got what I wanted, more banters / conversations and it felt a bit more like Baldur's Gate.


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